Muslims Muslims Muslims

[Moonbox]

India is not a Muslim country in its majority, Philippine is not either.

You didn't read what he said. In some countries Muslim populations are permitted to exercise Shariah law instead.

[eyeball]

So you fear people who fear muslims???

What I'm afraid of is how this type of generalized unreasoning fear can be manipulated and used to justify the empowerment of a militarized police state and a weakening of individual civil rights. We've certainly seen more than enough of this fear and movement in these directions to indicate a developing trend. We also have various historical accounts of what happens when this trend becomes entrenched so we really should know better than to let this happen.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... We also have various historical accounts of what happens when this trend becomes entrenched so we really should know better than to let this happen.

So you would not be in favor of martial law, medical quarantine, or curfews in time of national emergency?

[monkeyman]

I am not afraid of Muslims. I have Muslim friends aplenty. Anyone who hates Muslims for being Muslim is retarded.

Having said that, the cultures and values of a lot of people coming from fundamentalist Islamic States are VERY scary to a lot of people, myself included.

In Saudi Arabia, for example, I've read it's illegal for a woman to be out and about by herself with a group of guys. Not too long ago there was a case where a woman was raped by a group of guys and while the guys themselves were punished, the woman HERSELF was also sentenced to getting lashed for being alone a man that wasn't her fiance. What the hell?

There was a case in Pakistan I read about where a man murdered his wife for cheating on him. He was sentenced to jail but he traded a goat for his freedom. His wife's life was worth a goat.

It's not the Islamic faith that's the problem, it's the people that bring draconic and fundamentalist values from places like Iran, Pakistan etc to the West. For VERY obvious reasons these values clash with ours.

When you have indoctrinated fools believing anyone who doesn't follow Islamic Law is evil, THAT's where the negative perceptions begin to develop.

I Agree at 100% with what you said.

#1 Why do they let people like that come in Canada (not Muslims, but extremists)

#2 There was a man who killed his wife and Daughter and QUEBEC (WHITE CAUCASIAN) because his wife wanted to divorce, plenty plenty of cases happen each year with the husband killing the wife. Why are you more scared of a Muslim person doing it ?

THE LAW IS THE LAW, You kill someone, YOU GO TO JAIL for a LONG LONG LONG TIME, wherever he's from, there's no excuses.

People are scared for nothing, I never met anyone in 23 years in Canada saying he wanted to kill someone because he's not Muslim or beating him.

What I understand from your text is that you're scared of Muslim men that will kill their wife because they cheated on him, but you're not scared of the White Canadian dude that will do it, because he's white! It makes no sense.

We Live in Canada, not with the Talibans, get your head out of ....

As I always say, when you let enter 5000 Muslims each years in Canada, you will get some bad persons within the 5000, it's sure! No one is perfect man. If they commit a crime, they are not LESS or MORE protected because they are Muslims or Jews or Christians, or whatever, they go in Jail or you send them back in their countries of origin!

[monkeyman]

What I'm afraid of is how this type of generalized unreasoning fear can be manipulated and used to justify the empowerment of a militarized police state and a weakening of individual civil rights. We've certainly seen more than enough of this fear and movement in these directions to indicate a developing trend. We also have various historical accounts of what happens when this trend becomes entrenched so we really should know better than to let this happen.

I agree, Medias will take an anecdote per day, show it on t.v. and say "These are the people we must fight" and for many reasons, some ignorant people will agree with what the t.v. says and will follow the stupid idea

[eyeball]

So you would not be in favor of martial law, medical quarantine, or curfews in time of national emergency?

Not at the hands of the likes of you. If this ever became the case you could definitely count on my being an enemy of the state, a real patriot in other words.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not at the hands of the likes of you. If this ever became the case you could definitely count on my being an enemy of the state, a real patriot in other words.

You needn't worry about me, but you should fear epidemiologists, health ministers, city mayors, prime ministers, police departments, etc.

In other words, just keep doing what you are doing and be afraid of everything.

[CANADIEN]

Any religion-based system is incompatible with a democratic secular society.

That being said, the outcry about the "demand" for sharia is making a mountain out of a molehill.

First, there is more to sharia that laws regading sexual conducts, the position of women in society and the punishment of crimes. Sharia encompass civil litigation, property rights, etc. So, when people say they want Sharia law, what exactly do they want? A simple question with a simple answer does not revel the full complexity.

Second, how many people, even among those clamouring the loudest for the establishment of sharia-based arbitration mecahnisms, have advocated that Sharia law become THE law for all Canadians. Very few indeed.

Third, how far would the proponents of Sharia go to have their way? Based on the reactions to the rejection of the tribunal proposal in Ontario, not that far.

Fourth, has an analysis of who in the Canadian Muslim communities say they want Sharia law? Were they born here, or selwhere? What is their gender, their age, their socio-economic situation?

[monkeyman]

Any religion-based system is incompatible with a democratic secular society.

That being said, the outcry about the "demand" for sharia is making a mountain out of a molehill.

First, there is more to sharia that laws regading sexual conducts, the position of women in society and the punishment of crimes. Sharia encompass civil litigation, property rights, etc. So, when people say they want Sharia law, what exactly do they want? A simple question with a simple answer does not revel the full complexity.

Second, how many people, even among those clamouring the loudest for the establishment of sharia-based arbitration mecahnisms, have advocated that Sharia law become THE law for all Canadians. Very few indeed.

Third, how far would the proponents of Sharia go to have their way? Based on the reactions to the rejection of the tribunal proposal in Ontario, not that far.

Fourth, has an analysis of who in the Canadian Muslim communities say they want Sharia law? Were they born here, or selwhere? What is their gender, their age, their socio-economic situation?

Come on! Stop your Bullshit! You're 100% wrong! Argus and Cie will prove it to you by writing about an Anecdote they say 5 years ago!

[Moonbox]

#2 There was a man who killed his wife and Daughter and QUEBEC (WHITE CAUCASIAN) because his wife wanted to divorce, plenty plenty of cases happen each year with the husband killing the wife. Why are you more scared of a Muslim person doing it ?

I'm not more scared of a Muslim person doing it. I'm equally as revolted when a white dude kills his wife. What I don't like is when people move to Canada from Pakistan or Iran or whatever and feel that it is OKAY to practise Sharia law in Canada when it's quite clear from the outset that they cannot. It's the culture that SOME people bring with them to Canada that scares me.

I went to a highschool with a big ESL program and subsequently we had a large number of Afghan immigrants there. They threatened to kill my friend on one occasion because during a snowball fight one of them landed near one of the Afghans. Sure enough, after school the Afghan posse shows up with bats and tire irons looking for my friend. The good part was that he took their threat seriously and the cops had been waiting for them.

What I understand from your text is that you're scared of Muslim men that will kill their wife because they cheated on him, but you're not scared of the White Canadian dude that will do it, because he's white! It makes no sense.

You didn't understand my text then. I'm unsettled by people coming to Canada from cultures that CONDONE violence against women (ie. you kill your wife and don't go to jail because you trade in a goat to avoid the sentence). If people are coming to Canada with THAT sort of mentality and they think that it will fly here then it IS scary. I just gave you extreme examples but there's a ton of different reasons why certain cultures don't fit well in Canada.

We Live in Canada, not with the Talibans, get your head out of ....

I realize that. I already said I don't fear Muslims. I find the draconic adherence and/or perversion of Islamic teachings that some people follow extremely disconcerting and in some cases scary. I feel the same about a lot of fundamentalist Christians.

As I always say, when you let enter 5000 Muslims each years in Canada, you will get some bad persons within the 5000, it's sure! No one is perfect man. If they commit a crime, they are not LESS or MORE protected because they are Muslims or Jews or Christians, or whatever, they go in Jail or you send them back in their countries of origin!

I agree with you. What scares me is how people from certain cultures feel they can justify evil acts by hiding behind their religion. This is not exclusively Muslim, but AT PRESENT the scale of the problem in a lot of fundamentalist Islamic cultures dwarfs everything else.

I'll say one last time, I DO NOT hate/fear Muslims. As an overall group they're as benevolent as any. There is simply a LOT of rabid nuts WITHIN the overall sphere of Islam who've grown up on perverted teachings and violence. Those people scare me. There's not many in Canada you're right. They do exist though and they're a legitimate danger.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Moonbox

[GostHacked]

So you would not be in favor of martial law, medical quarantine, or curfews in time of national emergency?

That can all happen anyways when a National Emergency is declared.

[Argus]

So one more time, the fact is:

You Generalize Muslims as people who ask for a Shariah law, 6 countries out of 48 use it, of course you will think that the WHOLE POPULATION of these countries are 100% the Shariah..of course!!!!!!

We are speaking here, not of laws, but attitudes. You are attempting to suggest Muslims are just like us, only, well, Muslim. The thing about Sharia law is that, if you support it, you are NOT just like us. If you want Sharia, you're either appallingly ignorant and backward, or a religious wacko - at least, so far as our secular sensibilities are concerned.

6/48 and it does not include the biggest Muslim country.

But we're not discussing the attitudes of dictators (all Muslim countries are ruled by dictators), we're talking about attitudes of the general "muslim in the street" and if polls and surveys show that in all these Muslim countries, especially in the middle east, half or more than half the population is in favour of Sharia law, well, what does that say about the general population? You're speaking about Indonesia when talking about the "biggest Muslim country" yes?

Majority in Indonesia favour Sharia Law

What does it say about the culture of a nation when almost half of the people want women to be FORCED to wear head scarves and want to chop off the hands of thieves?

And remember, Muslims in Asia are generally not nearly as severe in their religious beliefs as Muslims in the Middle East.

I repeat: Canadian Muslims were asked if they wanted the Shariah, 55% said yes according to your numbers, it doesn't mean that 55% of Canadian Muslims will ask and impose it!

No, but it means that their social views are backwards, unsophisticated, and antithecal to Canadian cultural values.

[segnosaur]

I myself am atheists, so I have a basic dislike/distrust of all religions.

The way I see it, Islam has 3 specific problems:

A higher portion of people with radical ideas.

Now, I admit, there ARE radicals in every religion... Christianity has the KKK for example. However, the portion of the population that make up such radicals is small. While I'm sure that the number of "radical" muslims is probably still a minority, they still make up a larger portion of the population than 'radical' christians.

Put it this way, you claim that "only" a small number of muslims live under (or want to live under) Shaira law; however, even though that number is small, its still a larger number than the number of Christians who want to live under a strict christian theocracy. And even countries that aren't under Sharia law can still mix Islam and government in ways that most of us find uncomfortable. (Look at all the government supported anti-jewish material put out in places like Egypt and Palestine.)

Its a shame that all muslims get unfairly criticized for the actions of a few. I'm just stating this as a possible basis for people's fears.

Willingness to condem extremists

Most Christian extemists are looked down on.... the KKK for example is made fun of regularly in movies. On the other hand, it seems like even if muslims don't support extremists, they also aren't as willing to condem them. As an example, you won't find regular condemnations of (for example) suicide attacks on Jewish civilians in the muslim world.

The Extremes adherents are willing to go

Yes, there are obnoxious Christians, Jews etc. However, the most extreme thing that a Christian is willing to do is annoy you by knocking on your door durring dinner time. Muslims however, are willing to engage in suicide attacks, riots, etc. in defence of their faith.

The way I see it, there was a time when the Christian religion was the "bad guy" and Islam was considerably more enlightened. However, Christianity went through its trials and self-examination, and reformed itself to something that is relatively benign. (Still wrong, but mostly harmless.) It seems that, at least in part, the Islamic faith hasn't yet gone under the same 'reformation' process. (Understandable, since the religion is several centuries younger than others.)

[Bonam]

I myself am atheists, so I have a basic dislike/distrust of all religions.

The way I see it, Islam has 3 specific problems:

A higher portion of people with radical ideas.

...

Willingness to condem extremists

...

The Extremes adherents are willing to go

...

The way I see it, there was a time when the Christian religion was the "bad guy" and Islam was considerably more enlightened. However, Christianity went through its trials and self-examination, and reformed itself to something that is relatively benign. (Still wrong, but mostly harmless.) It seems that, at least in part, the Islamic faith hasn't yet gone under the same 'reformation' process. (Understandable, since the religion is several centuries younger than others.)

Good points, unfortunately we can't afford to wait another 600 years for Islam to become as old and supposedly harmless as Christianity is.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Bonam

[Argus]

Source, Source????

The study also vetted attitudes towards Islamic law and unity, asking how desirable were the “strict application of Sharia Law in every Islamic country” and, in the long run, the unification of “all Islamic countries into a single Islamic state or Caliphate.” Many like it: 65 per cent in Egypt; 48 per cent in Indonesia and 76 per cent in Pakistan and Morocco.

World Muslims want Sharia and a return of one-world Muslim State

Asked whether Shari'a should be the only source of legislation, one of the sources of legislation, or not be a source of legislation, most Muslims believed it should at least be a source of legislation. Support was particularly strong in Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt, where approximately two-thirds of Muslim respondents stated that the Shari'a must be the only source of legislation

Strong Majorities in middle east favour Sharia law

Apart from a few public lashings since Islamisation started in the 1980s, harsh physical punishments have not been imposed. Nobody has been executed under a law banning blasphemy against Islam, but some accused blasphemers have been killed by mobs.

Sharia law wanted in Muslim world

53 percent of Muslims think Shariah law should be recognized as a legal basis for settling family disputes, outlawed in 2006. Of those surveyed, 55 percent of Muslim women and 59 percent of Muslims aged 18 to 29 indicated their preference for Sharia law.

Many Canadians want Sharia law

Forty per cent of the British Muslims surveyed said they backed introducing sharia in parts of Britain, while 41 per cent opposed

40% of British Muslims want Sharia law

Sharia law should rule Ireland in the ven of a Muslim majority, a senior Islamic cleric has said

[monkeyman]

The study also vetted attitudes towards Islamic law and unity, asking how desirable were the “strict application of Sharia Law in every Islamic country” and, in the long run, the unification of “all Islamic countries into a single Islamic state or Caliphate.” Many like it: 65 per cent in Egypt; 48 per cent in Indonesia and 76 per cent in Pakistan and Morocco.

World Muslims want Sharia and a return of one-world Muslim State

Asked whether Shari'a should be the only source of legislation, one of the sources of legislation, or not be a source of legislation, most Muslims believed it should at least be a source of legislation. Support was particularly strong in Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt, where approximately two-thirds of Muslim respondents stated that the Shari'a must be the only source of legislation

Strong Majorities in middle east favour Sharia law

Apart from a few public lashings since Islamisation started in the 1980s, harsh physical punishments have not been imposed. Nobody has been executed under a law banning blasphemy against Islam, but some accused blasphemers have been killed by mobs.

Sharia law wanted in Muslim world

53 percent of Muslims think Shariah law should be recognized as a legal basis for settling family disputes, outlawed in 2006. Of those surveyed, 55 percent of Muslim women and 59 percent of Muslims aged 18 to 29 indicated their preference for Sharia law.

Many Canadians want Sharia law

Forty per cent of the British Muslims surveyed said they backed introducing sharia in parts of Britain, while 41 per cent opposed

40% of British Muslims want Sharia law

Sharia law should rule Ireland in the ven of a Muslim majority, a senior Islamic cleric has said

Dude you're a dumb ignorant:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...oll-shows.html:

"A lot of people think the idea is very good, but when you start talking of every day implications, the number dropped," said Ira Soekirman of Roy Morgan Research, an Australian company which conducted the survey."

That is the source you give me ? When you clearly see what's written in it ?

And 52% is the huge majority of Muslims?

You know what, you can stick the Shariah up your arse, is it better like that? You don't even know what Shariah is, you think Shariah is bad, because it says that you cut he hand of someone who steels. Now people who want Shariah are not like us according to you (I'm not for Shariah). But people who are for the DEATH PENALTY in Canada, are they like ''us''? Or is it ok for them to ask for the death penalty because they are Whites ?

People like you are ignorants, T.V. tells you Shariah is bad, you'll say Shariah is bad, T.V. will tell you Muslims are dangerous, you'll think that Muslims are dangerous.

What do you know about Shariah? As I said, I don't know pretty much about it, so I don't tend to speak about it a lot, even though it's 100% sure that it has no place in Canada, because it's CANADA. However, your condemning the Muslim countries and people because they would like to apply the Shariah and you know nothing about it! Did it ever came to your mind that it's more than CUTTING HANDS OFF and Scarves, and that Shariah would not be applied the same way in every country ? And that Shariah is applied in only 6 out of 48 Muslim countries ?

T.V. tells you that Shariah is bad, so it's bad that's it....That's how brilliant you are! A lot of similarities exist between the Shariah and the English law and United States law, just in case you didn't know it.

So I'm going to repeat it one more time: Your scare toward Muslims is basically related to the Shariah, something that you're not aware of, something that you think is ONLY ABOUT Cutting Hands and submission of women. Of course you think that all the percent of people that want Shariah, would like to cut off the hands of someone who steels. No judgment is involved there from you as I can see.

Again, when White Americans kill someone using the death penalty, it's ok because not all of them want that, but when people say they favor the Shariah, they are ALL AT 100% for cutting hands !

By the way, you said MAJORITY OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES, I don't see a Majority of Muslim countries, and a HUGE MAJORITY (as you said) of Muslim people in some Muslim countries that are for the Shariah. Of course the Shariah, I will read on it to know what it involves, to be less ignorant.

Edited August 14, 2009 by monkeyman

[monkeyman]

I agree with you. What scares me is how people from certain cultures feel they can justify evil acts by hiding behind their religion. This is not exclusively Muslim, but AT PRESENT the scale of the problem in a lot of fundamentalist Islamic cultures dwarfs everything else.

I never said you hated Muslims, if I did it was stupid.

Why ARE YOU SCARED FROM THAT ? That's what I don't understand. I mean there's not a Bronx of Extremist Muslims that are waiting to you and that would cut your hand off if you would be dumb enough to steel something?

You are scared for you personally or for the society? I mean if these people didn't have the same laws as us, which will NEVER HAPPEN, then I could understand that you could be scared. I don't give a shit about these people, they don't give a shit about me, that's how it works, it's the same for you mate.

They have the same LAWS then us, if a white person kills his wife and children, I'll be sad, but I'll know that the animal who did it will go in Jail. How could he scare me? I don't even know him! I have no connections with him.

Look who's in the prisons in United States ? There are very very very few American Muslims or Muslims in jail, compared to Black people White people and Hispanic People.

What Are You Afraid Off ?

[monkeyman]

@Argus

Thank you for the source, you've proven me that you send me some good stuff to defend my point of view. Here's what it says in a source you've sent me:

PARIS (Reuters) - Sharia law is understood and applied in such varied ways across the Muslim world that it is difficult to say exactly what it is and how it could fit into a western legal context, according to experts on Islam.

Full Islamic criminal law, the harsh code most non-Muslims think of when they hear the word sharia, is applied in very few countries, such as Saudi Arabia. Islamic "personal law" for issues like marriage and inheritance is much more common.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams sparked off a storm last week by suggesting Britain adopt some sharia law. British Muslims defending him stressed most of the Islamic world also rejected the ultra-orthodox model that he clearly ruled out.

"There are 57 Muslim countries in the world and only two or three of them impose full sharia criminal law. Why on earth would we want to have that here?" asked Sheikh Suhaib Hasan, secretary of the Islamic Sharia Council in Britain.

There you go, you contradict yourself mate

[bush_cheney2004]

....Look who's in the prisons in United States ? There are very very very few American Muslims or Muslims in jail, compared to Black people White people and Hispanic People.

False...there are tens of thousands such Muslims in jail.....many are "Black". But what does the USA have to do with this issue.

[monkeyman]

False...there are tens of thousands such Muslims in jail.....many are "Black". But what does the USA have to do with this issue.

By the way, are you proud to support a Government that created false pictures to attack Iraq and kill Thousands ?

You seem proud of that.

[bush_cheney2004]

By the way, are you proud to support a Government that created false pictures to attack Iraq and kill Thousands ?

You seem proud of that.

Of course....Canada, UK, and the USA have been strangling and killing Iraq for many years. That Saddam must have been one of the bad Sunni Muslims....right ?

[Topaz]

Of course....Canada, UK, and the USA have been strangling and killing Iraq for many years. That Saddam must have been one of the bad Sunni Muslims....right ?

BC, the US govt does this thing, they are your friend when they want something, like when they were FRIENDS with Saddam and then when Saddam or any other leader won`t go along with what the US wants, you`re a terrorists! Look at OBL, part of the CIA, worked with the US until 911... OBL is a terrorists. What do you think the people within the US military and the government can do no wrong?

[bush_cheney2004]

BC, the US govt does this thing, they are your friend when they want something, like when they were FRIENDS with Saddam and then when Saddam or any other leader won`t go along with what the US wants, you`re a terrorists! Look at OBL, part of the CIA, worked with the US until 911... OBL is a terrorists. What do you think the people within the US military and the government can do no wrong?

Ever wonder why Canada is an ally and "FRIEND" of the United States? Hmmmmm ?????

Edited August 14, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[segnosaur]

BC, the US govt does this thing, they are your friend when they want something, like when they were FRIENDS with Saddam...

The U.S. is certainly not perfect. However, things like this need to be put into context.

At the time that the U.S. was "friends" with Saddam, Iraq and Iran were engaged in a war. To many, it seemed logical to support Iraq as a way to prevent the spread of Iranian-based fundamentalism. Kind of the whole "enemy of my enemy is my friend", or the "lesser of 2 evils".

Was it a smart decision in the long run? Who knows. It did make sense at the time.

And even when the U.S. was "friends" with Saddam, their actual support was VERY limited. (The majority of Iraqi arms still came from the USSR, and the U.S. wasn't even the main supplier of components for chem/bio weapons.

Look at OBL, part of the CIA, worked with the US until 911...

Actually, I'd be very suspicious of claims that OBL was somehow 'affiliated' with the US and CIA.

The only time that they would have been working together would have been during the Soviet invasion of afghanistan, and at the time the U.S. was giving aid to the native Afghan Muhujadeen. They had no need to fund bin Laden.

From: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/1...wers/index.html

The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently.

[eyeball]

Was it a smart decision in the long run? Who knows. It did make sense at the time.

This is where the rubber should be hitting the road on this whole business of wading into foreign quagmires. It didn't make sense to me then and in the light of blowback, in the context of its official description, its clear that selling out certain principles and cozying up to bastards like Hussein, the Shah, the list goes on and on, is just plain wrong. As far as I'm concerned any nation or coalition of nations that holds up human rights with one hand while propping up a human right abusing regime with the other is committing a crime against humanity, including its own.

Your question speaks directly to my desire to see that every foreign military engagement our country undertakes is subject to a full public review and referendum. Our alliances should also be subject to the same process. If my country intends to kill people in my name then I insist on having a vote on exactly who it is that's being killed and why.