Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

DogOnPorch · July 25, 2009

DoP:
Firstly, as we've stated - dropping individual incidents doesn't tell us much except that these incidents do happen.

Secondly, there's about an 80% chance that these people weren't Muslim, so it doesn't speak to the OP in the thread, unless you're trying to tell us that honour killings aren't exclusively Muslim in nature.

There's a 100% chance they are not part of Western Civilization.

lily · July 25, 2009

No one? We have folks trying to downplay the issue as if it was just a common murder. If you aren't one of them, good for you.

No-one is trying to downplay it as common murder. We're simply waiting for the facts to come in to decide.

I'm wondering something though.... does the motive really matter one way or another? Is this any different than a man killing his kids so his ex-wife can't have them? Or any other reason/excuse?

DogOnPorch · July 25, 2009

No-one is trying to downplay it as common murder. We're simply waiting for the facts to come in to decide.
I'm wondering something though.... does the motive really matter one way or another? Is this any different than a man killing his kids so his ex-wife can't have them? Or any other reason/excuse?

I explained the difference.

lily · July 25, 2009

I explained the difference.

I must have missed it.

DogOnPorch · July 25, 2009

You must have...

lily · July 25, 2009

Yes I did. :unsure:

The difference I see between this type of murder and "regular murder" as a result of domestic violence is that in an honor killing situation, you might have an entire family/clan plotting your murder.

I don't see how that matters. It might in sentencing, because it would be easier to prove premeditation, but either way, a family member was killed.

benny · July 25, 2009

When's the last 'duel' you saw? We call them gang shootings now...quite illegal.

Western movies is still very much part of our proud heritage.

DogOnPorch · July 25, 2009

Western movies is still very much part of our proud heritage.

So are Mobster movies. But we jail them, too.

DogOnPorch · July 25, 2009

Yes I did.
I don't see how that matters. It might in sentencing, because it would be easier to prove premeditation, but either way, a family member was killed.

When you might have to lock up 100 people...sure it matters.

Riverwind · July 25, 2009

I don't see how that matters.

What makes honour killings more odious than other types of familial violance is the culture that created people who believed such violance was justified and the fact that some members of their community actually support such violance.

Mr.Canada · July 25, 2009

I can't speak for him, but I know that every time I spell honour in the British fashion Firefox's automatic spell checking underlines it in red and suggests I change it to honor. I assume Explorer's default settings are also set to US English.

I also use Firefox and yeah I get the red line. I'm was fully aware that I was spelling "honour" as "honor", the American spelling and I knew that my detractors would mention it. I did it on purpose....sheesh. To get your goat as it were. I knew it would wind up the usual suspects and they didn't disappoint.

Shady · July 25, 2009

Honor killing is not very different from what westerners have known as duel.

This is the stupidest thing I've seen written in quite along time. So apparently, to you, an adult male killing a teenage girl, is a duel? What the hell is wrong with you? :blink:

Mr.Canada · July 25, 2009

Honor killing is not very different from what westerners have known as duel.

Please tell me you aren't serious benny...lol. I know you can come up with something better...wow.

A duel implies fairness, both similarly armed, same stature perhaps and so on. A man killing a women is cowardice regardless of reason. I say string em' up, the only punishment befitting such a coward.

Btw, have you looked into the racial/religious makeup of prisons lately. I'm talking about the pens not provincial jails and buckets here. They are dominated by Muslims now. The Muslims run many of the institutions now a days. Muslims, Natives, Blacks then Whites is the population order.

You can take tours of these institutions in Kingston, I encourage you guys to do it, it's an eye opening experience to be sure. Pc people can say what you want but if you want to see who the bad people in our society is look at the jails and see what's in there.

Isn't it time for the people of these racial communities to take responsibility for their own actions instead of taking the liberal position that it isn't their fault, it's because they grew up poor or with no father or because their mother was a whore or because his wife looked at another man...or...

benny · July 25, 2009

This is the stupidest thing I've seen written in quite along time. So apparently, to you, an adult male killing a teenage girl, is a duel? What the hell is wrong with you?

For all the time when honor was a preeminent western value, adulthood arrived sooner for children than what is the case nowadays.

Molly · July 25, 2009

What makes honour killings more odious than other types of familial violance is the culture that created people who believed such violance was justified and the fact that some members of their community actually support such violance.

No. That doesn't differentiate them at all.

'Other types of familial violence' are also often percieved as justified where they occur, and also remain supported by altogether too many within the broader community.

That's why it is such an intractable problem to solve.

JB Globe · July 25, 2009

I was talking to Mr. Canada before you decided to horn-in on this one, but okay . . .

However, virtually all murders of children are done within families by people who are, to put it mildly, mentally distraught. They are generally spur of the moment things, usually done with the assistance of large doses of alcohol, drugs and a heaping helping of mental illness.

That's false. You'll usually find that they're not "spur of the moment" - there's usually a history of domestic violence that continues to escalate. And often times you'll find the murder is pre-meditated, and doesn't come about because the perp's kid spilled his milk and he/she flies off the handle.

There isn't a whole lot more we can do to combat that other than be wary during marital breakdowns (when such things usually occur) and improve our treatment of mental health problems (we have a long way to go there).

There's a LOT more we can do, and quite frankly, all of us are to blame when it comes to these problems, because most of us only pay lip service to improving the mental health system, because when it comes time to throw money behind it, we start whining about raising taxes.

The issue of Honour Killings is unique in that it is a cultural phenomenon which is widely supported by members of given communities which we are importing into Canada.

And of course, it should be noted that such killings are exceedingly rare, and certainly no more common than parents-murdering-their-children, which I suppose is what you call it when a parent who is white and/or not Muslim, Hindu or Sikh murders their child.

It stems from the again widely supported belief that women are the property of men

Widely-supported implies that most people in these communities hold this view, and I haven't really seen any evidence of this. I think the severity of this view rapidly decreases once you get out of the smaller pockets where it's held.

I know you're going to go on this whole "You're justifying the killings! You support Honour killings! You're a multiculti apologist!" tip, but whatever, you're kind of a joke to me, so who cares?

But to the others who aren't so bull-headed, I'm not down-playing - I'm contextualizing here. The reason I'm doing this is because if we pretend that Honour killings are some sort of epidemic because of Islamophobic hysteria in lieu of actual facts, we're going to come up with a solution befitting an epidemic. And since the actual numbers tell us that this thing is statistically rare, our "solution" is going to be way out of whack with the actual problem, meaning it will probably fail.

It will probably greatly alienate the Muslim community if we start acting like this is a nation-wide catastrophe, because it will appear to them (and rightly so) like we're being heavy-handed not because the problem is so severe (it isn't) but because we as Canadians don't like Muslims. And without their involvement, the situation won't actually change, and if the community may feel under attack by the barrage and turn inwards, thus making the situation worse.

Basically, the solution has to be on the same-scale as the problem, I'm all for acting on this problem, but it's got to come from a grassroots level, it's got to include Imams who have been campaigning against domestic violence for years now like: Imam Badat at Islamic Foundation in Toronto, Syed Soharwardy at the Calgary Islamic Centre, Sheik Alaa El-Sayyed, national president of Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, and Mohammad Alnadui, vice-chairman of the Canadian Council of Imams. You've got to get leaders who have CLOUT in the community on-board.

If you don't get the community on-board, it will be an abject failure. The thought of a bunch of Harper & Iggy cronies and radio personalities finger-waving at Muslim-Canadians is just pathetic.

Michael Hardner · July 25, 2009

Dog on Porch,

There's a 100% chance they are not part of Western Civilization.

They're African - from Liberia.

Are you saying that non-Westerners in general are a problem of some kind ?

What are the 'OK' areas in your mind ?

Asia ?

DogOnPorch · July 25, 2009

Dog on Porch,
They're African - from Liberia.

Are you saying that non-Westerners in general are a problem of some kind ?

What are the 'OK' areas in your mind ?

Asia ?

Anywhere with cultural values akin to ours.

Mr.Canada · July 25, 2009

Why is it of all the cases in Canada where parents murder their children you only go on these posting blitzes when the case involves a family who is Muslim?
Do the lives of white children not matter to you? Are you racist against white people?

Uhh...what?

Because we imported this problem and allowed to fester through this "we are the world" communist thinking and now the Canadian people are at risk due to it. Multiculturalism isn't working and now people are dying. This is why I have such a problem with it.

Michael Hardner · July 25, 2009

DogOnP,

By 'ours' I guess you mean Canada 1967. Well, you indeed have gone indeed farther than HydraBoss - who wants to restrict Muslim immigration.

You, Dog, want to only allow immigration from Canada.

benny · July 25, 2009

DogOnP,
By 'ours' I guess you mean Canada 1967. Well, you indeed have gone indeed farther than HydraBoss - who wants to restrict Muslim immigration.

You, Dog, want to only allow immigration from Canada.

Finding one criminal in a group is no reason to punish this whole group.

Shady · July 25, 2009

For all the time when honor was a preeminent western value, adulthood arrived sooner for children than what is the case nowadays.

That's complete nonsense. "Honor" has never been a preeminent western value. It's always been more of an eastern or mid-eastern preeminent value (ie Japan).

You're tying yourself in knots in order to make excuses for radical Islam. Stop the insanity.

August1991 · July 25, 2009

I've stated quite clearly from the beginning that it is Radical Islam that is to blame. I have no problem whatsoever with regular, everyday Muslims. As a matter of fact Muslims have been in Canada since before Confederation but we're only now hearing of honor killings and extreme Islam now because of it's growing popularity around the globe.

I fear that the idea that honour killings are due to "radical islam" is common on this thread, and among some Canadians. The idea is wrong, IMV.

Honour killings and the like are examples of old-fashioned, backward Islam. Radical Islam is a new phenomenon and is a particular threat to western civilization. The guy who organizes the killing of his daughter, despicable as that is, does not pose the same threat as the young guy who hijacks a plane.

No one? We have folks trying to downplay the issue as if it was just a common murder. If you aren't one of them, good for you.

It is common murder and as Hardner and I have pointed out above, a domestic murder and an honour killing amount to teh same thing.

Mind you, I do not engage in tit-for-that, in case you were wondering. But when I see someone engage in idiotic statements on a continuous basis, I conclude they're idiots.

Play the ball, not the man. You can call another poster's ideas idiotic, but don't call the poster an idiot.

I think that our Western society is better overall, as it offers people the choice to engage in the kind of life they want. I believe the separation of church and state allows people better possibilities to follow their goals.

Michael, your defence is too tentative. There is no doubt in my mind that western civilization is superior. Perhaps because the west has developed doubt and the scientific method, we by nature question ourselves.

Margaret Thatcher years ago said (I paraphrase) that we westerners have every right to defend our beliefs as strongly as non-westerners attempt to promote their backward notions.

Edited July 25, 2009 by August1991

Smallc · July 25, 2009

Play the ball, not the man. You can call another poster's ideas idiotic, but don't call the poster an idiot.

How are you supposed to play ball with an idiot?

August1991 · July 25, 2009

Many immigrants in the first half of the 20th century came from societies that harboured notions of honour very similar to those we find today in Middle Eastern and Pakistani societies. Christian societies from the mediteranean areas.

I tend to agree. Traditional Islamic societies pose a particular problem in the way that they deal with women.

I have often thought that when a foreign woman immigrates to Canada, she in effect wins a large lottery. OTOH, the man loses.

The story of this family seems to confirm my idea.

The KKK was an organization dedicated to destroying non-white non-protestant peoples. If there were an equivalent group intent on coming here to destroy any other group, then we could discuss that.

Exactly, Michael.

That's why I thought Argus was wrong.

The difference is that the mentality which says that women are possessions, that their violation of the "rules" should lead to death is not merely the view of a few "extremists" but is widespread and mainstream in many parts of the Arab world.

I have to agree. What is worse, many Muslims disagree with this attitude to women but they have no way to change things.

IMV, Islamic societies are filled with frustrated people. This is particularly true among young men and women.

Honor killing is not very different from what westerners have known as duel.

I tend to agree with Benny on this. Duels and honour killings are similar in that both are stupid and backward. Civilized people have better ways of resolving disputes.

Pushkin died in 1837 in a duel, over 150 years ago. Draw your own conclusion.

Edited July 25, 2009 by August1991