Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

[Argus]

A feature of this case is that the father was planning to have all the daughters and his first wife return to Afghanistan and this may have provoked the murders.

You mean their resistance to it might have provoked the murders. As I said, one of the paths to "disciplining" immigrant girls who are too taken with the freedom in Canada is to send them "home" to be properly "conditioned" meaning beaten into submission, and then raped - excuse me, married to a man some years senior to them who will keep them in line.

Argus, that comparison is odious - and wrong.

Why? I'm sure some KKK people are real nice, except in their attitude about Blacks and Jews.

And I'm sure that some Muslims are real nice too, if you ignore their attitude towards women.

[M.Dancer]

Dissaproval of a given group or culture based largely on its demonstrated behaviour does not in any way imply "hate" of that group.

This demonstrated behavior occurs in what percnetage...in Canada?

There are less than 650,000 muslims in Canada....and there have been less than 10 events like last months in 10 years...

[Smallc]

In this case we have unearthed one of the causes...a specific use of a religion.

Have we? Or would these same people find an excuse?

[Argus]

It is only in the past 25 years or so that in the west many countires finally squashed the Crime of passion defense, which is what we called "honour killings" back then, crimes of passion. They are new, what is new to us is that muslim immigrants are doing them. When a white husband or wife kills their spouse over adultry we simply call it murder.

Like OJ

Uhm, no. OJ Simpson was not an honour killing. I'll grant you that some jealous men have killed their wives when they have left them or are fooling around with another man.

This is different.

This is the killing of women and girls, including ones own daughters or sisters, because some small thing they have done, such as being seen talking to a boy without a chaperone, or wearing clothing which is seen as too risque - ie, a anything but a chador, for example, or refusing to obey an arranged marriage. In other words, it is the killing of females family members, usually NOT ones wife, for not being properly submissive, obedient and docile.

Find me an example of a Canadian - not an immigrant - murdering his daughter for wearing a short skirt, or his sister for dating a boy the killer didn't approve of, in order to preserve the family honour.

[M.Dancer]

Crazy jealous assholes who kill their wives in a drunken haze, or because she's leaving them, are a universal problem and Canada has certainly had their ilk in the past - and still does.

Honour killings, however, are not, to my knowledge, something Canada has any experience with.

They also do it sober.

[Argus]

I would postulate that your "logical" conclusions are arrived at based on your point of departure. By this I mean your preconceptions are tainting your fact finding abilities, you notice the crimes committed by foreigners because you are under the impression that by far and in large they are committed by foreigners. Therefore you will only focus on those stories that support your notions.

Nope. I'm way too smart for that.

If you look at it objectively and do a quick internet search you can find how many people in Canada have been convicted of murder you'll find that the majority of them are in fact Canadian born white males.

Well given they are the vast majority then the vast majority of murders ought to be commited by white males. However, I sincerely doubt this to be the case. Certainly in places like Toronto, BC, and Ottawa, the great majority of murderers save for - ironically - domestic killings - seems to be a foreigner. I remember when the Star covered its entire front page with the small pictures of the murder victims of that year - virtually every single one was a visible minority killed by another visible minority.

You really hit the nail on the head when you said there is no proof to support your claims, yet logic would dictate you should abandon them in the absence of such evidence.

Not in the case where there has been a political decision made NOT to collect such evidence lest people use it to cast aspersions on minorities. Logically, the only reason people would want to prevent such evidence from being kept is because that evidence would show that minorities commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crime. In any event, in the abscence of "proof" one way or another, all I can go on is my observations.

[Argus]

yes

Cites?

[lily]

Nice try. Nobody here is trying to ignore that there are "honour" killings in Canada, or that those in recent years have been committed by Muslims. YOUR problem is, the majority of people here will not blow the problem out of proportion to feed their hatred of Muslims, like you do.

BTW, you know of course that 15 non-Muslim women have been murdered by their husband/partner/father in Canada between January and June of this year. If your concern was about the safety of women, you'd address that too. You have never addressed it, you do not address it, and you won't address it.

Quite obviously the concern ISN'T about the safety of women. It's about reinforcing the belief that Muslims are bad.

There is an interesting kind of murder for you. One you need to commit to defend your honour. What century is this?

I am very sorry for having to describe a citizen in the manner I feel compelled to, but this is how I feel. The savage who committed this crime needs to be made an example of. Perhaps with being treated in like manner according to their own traditions.

I said as much on the other thread, but I don't really see this as any different from anyone else killing their wife and/or kids. Look at that guy in Merritt. Killed his 3 kids so his wife wouldn't get custody. He sure showed her, eh? THAT scenario is far more common than "honour killings" in Canada.

Crazy jealous assholes who kill their wives in a drunken haze, or because she's leaving them, are a universal problem and Canada has certainly had their ilk in the past - and still does.

Honour killings, however, are not, to my knowledge, something Canada has any experience with.

It's simply a new defense. That's all.

[Argus]

This demonstrated behavior occurs in what percnetage...in Canada?

There are less than 650,000 muslims in Canada....and there have been less than 10 events like last months in 10 years...

The demonstrated behaviour I am referring to is an extreme mysognistic culture combined with anti-semitism and the embracing of what to our culture seems a zealous dedication to severe religious beliefs.

[lily]

The demonstrated behaviour I am referring to is an extreme misogynistic culture combined with anti-semitism and the embracing of what to our culture seems a zealous dedication to severe religious beliefs.

Let's stick with misogynistic, as that's the topic here. It's not like Canada doesn't have plenty of misogynists of her own. Women get beat up and killed all too frequently, and as has been pointed out, it wasn't all that long ago that the attitude was to simply look the other way. I'm old enough to remember when a man couldn't be charged with raping his wife... it was perfectly legal. So when someone asked which century this is.... we don't have to look too far into our past to find similar distasteful attitudes.

Dec 6, 1989, Marc Lepine killed 14 women because they were women.

Man, I could go on and on here. Women get killed, and the men who kill them get creative in their reasoning. She dishonoured me. She slept with my best friend. I was drunk. She took what I thought should be my place and it's therefore her fault I 'm a loser.

Why single out what is actually a fairly isolated incident?

Edited July 24, 2009 by lily

[M.Dancer]

Cites?

http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0110/cn011023.htm

http://www.stthomastimesjournal.com/Articl....aspx?e=1617169

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/419240

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/06/1028157922214.html

http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/husband-k...le-murder-trial

[Argus]

http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0110/cn011023.htm

http://www.stthomastimesjournal.com/Articl....aspx?e=1617169

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/419240

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/06/1028157922214.html

http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/husband-k...le-murder-trial

None of these are honour killings.

Care to try again?

[lily]

all right, this lefty wisn't telling anyone to shut up. My preferred phrase is to back up, as in....

What's more dangerous? A Big Mac in Cairo? or scores of 14-year old girls being thrown off balconies in West Hampshire?

Scores? Really?

[GostHacked]

You think those on the right would be perfectly ok with the honour killings. Considering many on the right like Shady seem to have a real issue with Muslims and Islam in general. The right don't want them here and want tighter immigration and more screening. So if they are killing each other off by honour killings, why is this not embraced by the right except for political gain to say it is wrong?

Murder is murder and it is not accpetable by western society. The jury will convict and he will be in jail for a long time. End of story.

[M.Dancer]

None of these are honour killings.

how do you know that? Because theybdon't say honour killing or becasue the outraged spouce ain't muslim?

She said Lee accused her of having an affair with an unnamed person at the couple's Korean restaurant in Victoria.

Suspecting her husband of having an affair, Clara Harris did what wealthy wives can afford to do: She hired an investigator. But what the private eye saw could become Exhibit A against Harris herself.

As the investigator's video camera rolled, an enraged Harris allegedly killed her husband in a Texas hotel parking lot by running him over three times with her silver Mercedes-Benz and leaving the car parked on top of him

.

If tey were muslims you would be calling them honour killings.

[Argus]

how do you know that? Because theybdon't say honour killing or becasue the outraged spouce ain't muslim?

Because as I have already stated, honour killings are not the typical spousal jealousy thing. They are about the honour of the family, and the usual victims are daughters and sisters, not wives.

If tey were muslims you would be calling them honour killings.

Nope. Wrong again.

[M.Dancer]

They are about the honour of the family, and the usual victims are daughters and sisters, not wives.

Muzzammil Hassan, 44, remains jailed after being charged with the second-degree murder of his wife, whose body was found Thursday at the office of Bridges TV, their television station in Orchard Park, near Buffalo.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,494785,00.html

A taxi driver accused of murdering his wife believed she had 'shamed' his Sikh family and quizzed a work colleague about her lover after she vanished, a court heard today

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-45...l#ixzz0MBua8XOo

[JerrySeinfeld]

all right, this lefty wisn't telling anyone to shut up. My preferred phrase is to back up, as in....

Scores? Really?

Yes.

Really.

This kind of thing wasn't happening with this kind of frequency in England 20 years ago. Are we to correlate this with increased immigration combined with boundless tolerance for culture at all costs? Or do we stick out heads in the sand?

I'm not sure how many of these

have to occur and be buried by the ultra tolerant before the

liberal western media stop writing this kind of behavior off as a normal part of western society.

Shall I continue posting these links to honour killings of young muslim girls in western countries? And why, prey tell, does the left continue to play along as if there is "nothing to see here"?

Turning away in the name of cultural tolerance isn't saving these girls.

Edited July 24, 2009 by JerrySeinfeld

[Argus]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,494785,00.html

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. Yes, stupid Muslim men kill their wives out of jealousy too. That does not preclude honour killing as a separate motivation.

I once said that brothers never, ever kill their sisters, barring mental illness.

I'm still waiting for cites of this happening out of family honour unrelated to immigrants.

"Yes," Sean O'brien said, "I saw my sister let this guy kiss her cheek, so of course I had to kill her in order to preserve our family honour."

[lily]

Thanks for the links..... but only one victim was a 14 year old and none were in West Hampshire.

No balconies were involved, either.

[M.Dancer]

I once said that brothers never, ever kill their sisters, barring mental illness.

Mental illnes or loud tv..

Brother Kills Sister Over Loud TVIs TV this dangerous: A Brooklyn man was arrested for strangling his sister to death, apparently over an argument about a TV's volume on Monday night

I gave you cites...you choose to reject them.

[Dave_ON]

Nope. I'm way too smart for that.

Based on your "arguments" heretorfore it would appear this is not the case.

Well given they are the vast majority then the vast majority of murders ought to be commited by white males. However, I sincerely doubt this to be the case. Certainly in places like Toronto, BC, and Ottawa, the great majority of murderers save for - ironically - domestic killings - seems to be a foreigner. I remember when the Star covered its entire front page with the small pictures of the murder victims of that year - virtually every single one was a visible minority killed by another visible minority.

Citation to support this please? I provided a link that showed the vast majority of convicted murders in Canada were not of ethnic origin as you have stated. The onus is on you to prove your claims. By the way wild accusations and heresay do not equate to evidence.

Not in the case where there has been a political decision made NOT to collect such evidence lest people use it to cast aspersions on minorities. Logically, the only reason people would want to prevent such evidence from being kept is because that evidence would show that minorities commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crime. In any event, in the abscence of "proof" one way or another, all I can go on is my observations.

That is one conclusion but it's hardly logical and certainly not the ONLY one. It could also be that it would be used to further fuel and in turn justify anti-minority hate speech and or crimes. There are those, such as you, who approach matters based on preconceived, subjective notions rather than facts. It would seem based on your posting so far that you would arrive at the same conclusions in spite of the facts.

If you believe you are correct, than you can prove it by providing a list of convicted murders demonstrating your theory. It certainly is easy enough to get this information if you have the inclination to dig for it. Please limit the list to only those convicted, accused is not the same thing.

Here's a list of my own.

Paul Bernardo, Wayne Boden, Michael Briere, Min Chen, Wilbert Coffin, Robert Raymond Cook, John Martin Crawford, Peter Demeter, Elva Bottineau, Valery Fabrikant, William Patrick Fyfe, George Gee, Albert Guay, Nelson Hart, Florence Lassandro, Robert Latimer, Allan Legere, Bernard Lortie, Denis Lortie, Jeremy Molitor, Angelina Napolitano, Norman Kidman, Clifford Olson, Robert Pickton, Paul Rose, William Chandler Shrubsall , Francis Simard, Clifford Sleigh, Colin Thatcher, Roch Thériault, Raymond Villeneuve, Roger Warren

[Molly]

I once said that brothers never, ever kill their sisters, barring mental illness.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.h...4a5&k=20265

"Along with extreme traditional beliefs, there are deeper mental health issues that need to be considered, Muhammad said.

Quite often, people who are willing to kill members of their own family to restore some notion of honour are doing so, not just because they believe it to be right based on culture, but also because they are mentally ill in some way.

"Somehow, it gets ignored," Muhammad said, citing a lack of understanding in the West and the lack of mental health personnel in developing nations as part of the problem."

Edited July 24, 2009 by Molly

[Argus]

Mental illnes or loud tv..

You find this amusing, do you?

I gave you cites...you choose to reject them.

I asked for cites of honour killing. You provided cites of jealous idiots killing their EXs.

[Argus]

Citation to support this please?

Citation to support that it seems to be minorities? What possible citation could do that?

I provided a link that showed the vast majority of convicted murders in Canada were not of ethnic origin as you have stated.

No, in fact you did not. You provided a wikipedia entry of 37 people convicted in notorious murder cases over the last few decades.

The onus is on you to prove your claims. By the way wild accusations and heresay do not equate to evidence.

This is generally the way these arguments go. The Left adamantly opposes the collection of any crime statistics which would actually prove such a case, and then sneers at you and demands you produce the evidence to support what you believe through observation. Of course, if I suggested we start collecting crime statistics based on race and national origin you'd be outraged and oppose that, too.

As I said, if the Left did NOT in fact, believe that such people commit a greatly disproportionate amount of crime, particularly violent crime, they'd be in favour of collecting such statistics so that people like me would not think ill of our new Canadians. That they insist such statistics not be kept tends to support my belief, through observation of news reports, that they do, in fact, commit a greatly disproportionate amount of crime.

That is one conclusion but it's hardly logical and certainly not the ONLY one. It could also be that it would be used to further fuel and in turn justify anti-minority hate speech and or crimes.

How? If the statistics showed that crime was commited in the same proportione as the native born community that would tend to disarm anti-minority types, rather than support them.

There are those, such as you, who approach matters based on preconceived, subjective notions rather than facts

So because I've arrived at my conclusion based on decades of observation of the media and discussions with individuals rather than through the statistical studies which are not allowed to be kept this somehow equates to my haveing a preconceived notion? Sorry, that is not supported by logic.

If you believe you are correct, than you can prove it by providing a list of convicted murders demonstrating your theory. It certainly is easy enough to get this information if you have the inclination to dig for it.

Easy? Hardly. It's easy enough to get a lot of news reports, but lists of people incarcerated or convicted of crimes are not laying around easily picked up. I suppose I could spend some hundreds of hours researching court and police records, and perhaps going through some kind of access to information application, but I'm guessing this thread would be long since dust before I came up with the information, and even if I did it would simply be shrugged off.

Here's a list of my own.

Paul Bernardo, Wayne Boden, Michael Briere, Min Chen, Wilbert Coffin, Robert Raymond Cook, John Martin Crawford, Peter Demeter, Elva Bottineau, Valery Fabrikant, William Patrick Fyfe, George Gee, Albert Guay, Nelson Hart, Florence Lassandro, Robert Latimer, Allan Legere, Bernard Lortie, Denis Lortie, Jeremy Molitor, Angelina Napolitano, Norman Kidman, Clifford Olson, Robert Pickton, Paul Rose, William Chandler Shrubsall , Francis Simard, Clifford Sleigh, Colin Thatcher, Roch Thériault, Raymond Villeneuve, Roger Warren

Unfortunately, one rarely gets well-researched and documented information by simply reciting a list one finds on Wikipedia.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Argus