dub Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 LA Times One squad leader said he argued with his commander over rules of engagement that allowed the army to clear out houses by shooting the residents without warning.... According to an account by a squad leader, an Israeli sharpshooter killed a Palestinian woman and her two children after they misunderstood another soldier's order and turned the wrong way. ... In another incident, a different squad leader said an elderly woman was shot dead on orders of a company commander as she walked on a road about 100 yards away. That squad leader said he argued with his commander over the rules of engagement. those are just a few who have spoken out about the human rights violations and disregard for civilian casualty and suffering. then you have the popular israeli-apologist lines that have been crushed by the truth: The military's own inquiry includes a review of allegations of abuse made by rights groups, but it has announced nofindings of wrongdoing. really? the people running IDF cannot be trusted and are war criminals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 (edited) really? the people running IDF cannot be trusted and are war criminals. This is very bad. The soldier's stories weren't compiled by a "lefty, self-hating, Jew" Israeli human rights group either - they were compiled by the head of an Israeli military academy who's also a Battalion Commander in the IDF Reserves. He was interviewing officers from his classes on their experiences fighting in Gaza IN GENERAL, and they just kept telling him these stories regarding civilians, he didn't even really prompt them, they just needed to get this stuff off their chest because it was so rampant it was really messing them up psychologically. He says he was and still is in shock, he wasn't prepared to hear this when he did the interviews. From what the soldiers say it wasn't even close to a case of "a few bad apples" or even "one bad policy" it was a systemic problem across the whole operation in Gaza that centred around the inability of soldiers on the ground and the folks planning the whole invasion to distinguish civilians from combatants. And putting all those Israeli claims that "that school was being used by Hamas and that's why we bombed it and those families sheltering inside died" are now going to be viewed as extremely suspect. What remains to be scene is if there was any malice behind this blurring of the lines between combatant and civlians or if it was sheer incompetence. Some quotes and examples: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle5939611.ece “That’s the beauty of Gaza. You see a man walking, he doesn’t have to have a weapon, and you can shoot him,” "When we entered a house, we were supposed to bust down the door and start shooting inside and just go up storey by storey… I call that murder. Each storey, if we identify a person, we shoot them. I asked myself – how is this reasonable?" The same unnamed NCO said that his commanding officer ordered soldiers on to a rooftop to shoot an old woman crossing a main street during the fighting. "I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story,” the NCO said. “I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder." Another disturbing element reported by the soldiers was the role of military rabbis in distributing booklets that framed the fighting as a religious war. “All these articles had a clear message: we are the Jewish people, we have come to the land by miraculous means, and now we have to fight to remove the Gentiles who are getting in our way and preventing us from occupying the Holy Land… a great many soldiers had a feeling throughout this operation of a religious war,” said one soldier. http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSLK403734 Aviv said "there was a very annoying moment" when he briefed his men and one challenged that order, saying: "Yeah? Anyone who is in there is a terrorist, that's a known fact..." "And then his buddies join in: 'We need to murder any person who's in there, yeah, any person who's in Gaza is a terrorist' and all the other things that they stuff our heads with, in the media," Aviv was quoted as saying. Edited March 20, 2009 by JB Globe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Genocide? Nawh - lets use the modern double speak - ethnic cleansing- like the Palistinians are dirty and need to be sanitized out of existance...I really don't know why no one can admit in this politically correct world - that SOME Jews - ARE RACISTS! WHY IS THE WORLD RELUCTANT TO SAY THAT - THE JEWS BELIEVE THEIR RACE IS SUPERIOUR AND ALL OTHERS ARE DOWN THERE ON THE ANIMAL LEVEL..WHY IS THIS PROBLEM NOT ADDRESSED? COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Genocide? Nawh - lets use the modern double speak - ethnic cleansing- like the Palistinians are dirty and need to be sanitized out of existance...I really don't know why no one can admit in this politically correct world - that SOME Jews - ARE RACISTS! WHY IS THE WORLD RELUCTANT TO SAY THAT - THE JEWS BELIEVE THEIR RACE IS SUPERIOUR AND ALL OTHERS ARE DOWN THERE ON THE ANIMAL LEVEL..WHY IS THIS PROBLEM NOT ADDRESSED? COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME? You forgot to mention they control the media, banking and entertainment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols..._Elders_of_Zion As for war crimes, I suspect most of the unprofessional behaviour came from the IDF Reserves which hadn't been called up in ages. It was this (large) group that needed the pep talk by the "fightin' rabbi" as to how to conduct operations in Gaza. The regular IDF is, no doubt, well versed in that. I doubt Hamas is doing similar soul searching post-battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 You forgot to mention they control the media, banking and entertainment.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols..._Elders_of_Zion As for war crimes, I suspect most of the unprofessional behaviour came from the IDF Reserves which hadn't been called up in ages. It was this (large) group that needed the pep talk by the "fightin' rabbi" as to how to conduct operations in Gaza. The regular IDF is, no doubt, well versed in that. I doubt Hamas is doing similar soul searching post-battle. Forget it chump - you are not going to suck me into that stupid "Protocols" bull shit - The Jews do not control the banks or the entertainment industry - sure they are in there - but go to England and ask the Queen an those established old families if the Jews tell their masters what to do - They are highly orgainized henchmen and very tribal and loyal to each other - and yes conspiratorial - but they have for hundreds of years did the bidding of the ancient extablished Christians - who will allow them to be holocausted one more time if they attempt to over step their bounds...Pure bred Jews are a stange bunch and are overly focused specialist..Is it a religion or a race? I would say a race - seeing they have inforced certain stern breeding practices over the centuries...and they are not that smart - what gives them the edge is that they ignore Christian compassion - and that's why they hate the rabboni Jesus the Christ - who instructed them to be kind - and that is not good for buisness as far as the majority of Jews are concerned - they are what they are - inbred and dumb and cruel ------any Jew wants to challenge that - go head ---and remember _ I love the Jews - just don't like poorly behaved people - and why should I tolerate bad behavour? I am not that liberal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 that SOME Jews - ARE RACISTS! WHY IS THE WORLD RELUCTANT TO SAY THAT - THE JEWS BELIEVE THEIR RACE IS SUPERIOUR AND ALL OTHERS ARE DOWN THERE ON THE ANIMAL LEVEL..WHY IS THIS PROBLEM NOT ADDRESSED? COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME? Like I've said a few times before, it's not that difficult to discuss Israel without being anti-semitic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 ....WHY IS THE WORLD RELUCTANT TO SAY THAT - THE JEWS BELIEVE THEIR RACE IS SUPERIOUR AND ALL OTHERS ARE DOWN THERE ON THE ANIMAL LEVEL..WHY IS THIS PROBLEM NOT ADDRESSED? COULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME? Easy...Judaism is not a race. Ever meet Sammy Davis Jr. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Easy...Judaism is not a race. Ever meet Sammy Davis Jr. ? Indeed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khGC7MX0mX0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Forget it chump - you are not going to suck me into that stupid "Protocols" bull shit - The Jews do not control the banks or the entertainment industry - sure they are in there - but go to England and ask the Queen an those established old families if the Jews tell their masters what to do - They are highly orgainized henchmen and very tribal and loyal to each other - and yes conspiratorial - but they have for hundreds of years did the bidding of the ancient extablished Christians - who will allow them to be holocausted one more time if they attempt to over step their bounds...Pure bred Jews are a stange bunch and are overly focused specialist..Is it a religion or a race? I would say a race - seeing they have inforced certain stern breeding practices over the centuries...and they are not that smart - what gives them the edge is that they ignore Christian compassion - and that's why they hate the rabboni Jesus the Christ - who instructed them to be kind - and that is not good for buisness as far as the majority of Jews are concerned - they are what they are - inbred and dumb and cruel ------any Jew wants to challenge that - go head ---and remember _ I love the Jews - just don't like poorly behaved people - and why should I tolerate bad behavour? I am not that liberal! The Illuminati, then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Israeli soldiers wear uniforms....army uniforms.What do Hamas members wear to distinguish themselves from ordinary civilians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted March 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 You forgot to mention they control the media, banking and entertainment.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols..._Elders_of_Zion As for war crimes, I suspect most of the unprofessional behaviour came from the IDF Reserves which hadn't been called up in ages. It was this (large) group that needed the pep talk by the "fightin' rabbi" as to how to conduct operations in Gaza. The regular IDF is, no doubt, well versed in that. I doubt Hamas is doing similar soul searching post-battle. another example of you trying to minimize IDF's wrong behaviour. you're not an honest person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Who ever bosters the confidence and egomania by supplying weapons is the real culprit - they need to be spanked - take away the arms and all you have are big latka asses scratching their butts....who arms these people and why? Maybe it's time to disarm the region - apparently between the arabics and semites - they are not mature or developed enough to be trusted with adult toys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Israeli soldiers wear uniforms....army uniforms.What do Hamas members wear to distinguish themselves from ordinary civilians? Testicles and facial hair for one. Those are clear indicators as to whether someone is a Hamas fighter on the one hand, or a child, or an old woman on the other. And as we've heard, IDF soldiers have shot unarmed women and children. I find it interesting that you're trying to justify potential breaches of international law on the part of the IDF with breaches of international law on the part of Hamas. It's not a cliche, it's a truism: Two wrongs don't make a right. Especially when throughout this conflict Israel has made repeated statements about how much they value and international law. And honestly, do you really expect uniforms out of a government that doesn't have enough money to feed even a small portion of its population? What would you spend the money on? And besides, even if they did have the money, they are a government which employs TERRORISM, do you really expect them to have the decency to wear uniforms? If some sliver of tactical advantage is to be gained by not wearing uniforms, they'll do it, because they don't have much else going for them. Especially since nothing their down is helping Palestinians advance their cause of a two-state solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 They are all terrorists..Hamas and the arrogant Israelis are both jerks. To bad that Palistine was not bigger and well funded - they could have a REAL war and destroy each other..the final solution - get rid of all the players - 60 years later and they still can't make friends - maybe someone is insane? Mental check ups on the Palistinian and Israeli leaders - I would say that both are quite batty...once diagnosed we could lock em all up.. Really how much more bull shit does the world have to endure from these inbred raging lunitics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 another example of you trying to minimize IDF's wrong behaviour. you're not an honest person. You're free to point out what was dishonest with my statement. The reserves haven't been called up in those numbers for years. That tends to make them civilians with guns which don't always act the same as 'lifers' who are career soldiers. I also added "I suspect" which means it's my opinion. Remarkably, we have yet to see many photos of the thousands of gunned down civilians. Perhaps they are forthcoming as they certainly would be a propaganda coup for Hamas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 To bad that Palistine was not bigger and well funded - they could have a REAL war and destroy each other..the final solution - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War Oh...they've all tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted March 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 You're free to point out what was dishonest with my statement. The reserves haven't been called up in those numbers for years. That tends to make them civilians with guns which don't always act the same as 'lifers' who are career soldiers. I also added "I suspect" which means it's my opinion. the reserves are part of the IDF. don't try to dismiss the fact that the IDF should be prosecuted for war crimes. don't try to pretend that the IDF, on numerous occasions, has dismissed any wrong doings after one of their laughable "investigations". we'll see how they will dismiss their own soldiers' admitting of war crimes. Remarkably, we have yet to see many photos of the thousands of gunned down civilians. Perhaps they are forthcoming as they certainly would be a propaganda coup for Hamas. "we"? who is we? where have you been looking? perhaps you should look beyond your jews-can-do-no-wrong sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Testicles and facial hair for one. Those are clear indicators as to whether someone is a Hamas fighter on the one hand, or a child, or an old woman on the other. And as we've heard, IDF soldiers have shot unarmed women and children.I find it interesting that you're trying to justify potential breaches of international law on the part of the IDF with breaches of international law on the part of Hamas. It's not a cliche, it's a truism: Two wrongs don't make a right. Especially when throughout this conflict Israel has made repeated statements about how much they value and international law. And honestly, do you really expect uniforms out of a government that doesn't have enough money to feed even a small portion of its population? What would you spend the money on? And besides, even if they did have the money, they are a government which employs TERRORISM, do you really expect them to have the decency to wear uniforms? If some sliver of tactical advantage is to be gained by not wearing uniforms, they'll do it, because they don't have much else going for them. Especially since nothing their down is helping Palestinians advance their cause of a two-state solution. I don't really buy into your argument.The Palestinians recieve BILLIONS of dollars from foreign governments(much of it from the hated West).The problem is that it seems much of that money is diverted towards terrorism,promoting hatred towards the Jews,and keeping a bloated,corrupt public service going.Things would certainly be better if all of this aid money was used for the benefit of all Palestinians. On the subject of international law,isn't firing rockets wildly into Israel a breach of said law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 the reserves are part of the IDF. don't try to dismiss the fact that the IDF should be prosecuted for war crimes. don't try to pretend that the IDF, on numerous occasions, has dismissed any wrong doings after one of their laughable "investigations". we'll see how they will dismiss their own soldiers' admitting of war crimes. Reserves are reserves. Regulars are regulars. "we"? who is we? where have you been looking? perhaps you should look beyond your jews-can-do-no-wrong sources. Post away. No Pallywood, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Reserves are reserves. Regulars are regulars. what's your point? both are part of the Israel Defense Force. Post away. No Pallywood, please. http://photos.upi.com/topic/e1e8e24e1cefc0...bb6/Gaza_57.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/b9010d552a5b9d...2c8/Gaza_62.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/42bcfe4fc861de...32d/Gaza_63.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/1dc5237a306792...698/Gaza_64.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/7e08be63a9b977...ce9/Gaza_66.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/df291b64b53fac...afa/Gaza_72.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/63dae8db89cdec...0b2/Gaza_75.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/4406fffbc3a087...d7c/Gaza_76.jpg Funeral held for 43 victims of Israeli strike on UN school in Gaza http://photos.upi.com/topic/865dea8aa573f2...f2f/Gaza_10.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/f35d2024509873...03e/Gaza_13.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/f8ba8b21af091f...24b/Gaza_17.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/99d2583dbf1884...f1d/Gaza_19.jpg http://photos.upi.com/topic/9d424f19c20f37...fa8/Gaza_34.jpg http://www.photojournalism.org/2007%20imag.../spot_news1.jpg there is more. a lot more. but yeah, you keep denying that the IDF have killed hundreds of innocent civilians and you keep denying that many from the IDF including those at the top who ordered the attacks, should be prosecuted for war crimes despite the overwhelming evidence, including IDF soldiers' own admissions. you're a dishonest person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) Israeli soldiers wear uniforms....army uniforms.What do Hamas members wear to distinguish themselves from ordinary civilians? Uniforms ... unless the Israeli soldiers steal them ... "The accusation that Israeli forces wore the uniforms and symbols of Hamas's Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades during the ground invasion of Gaza has serious implications, not only where international law is concerned, but also with regard to the veracity of claims made by Israel about Hamas tactics and alleged abuses," said AMW chairman Sharif Hikmat Nashashibi. And Dog on Porch ... it's in vain that you try to blame reserves, when it's clear that the orders came from the commanding officers. "When we entered a house, we were supposed to bust down the door and start shooting inside and just go up storey by storey… I call that murder. Each storey, if we identify a person, we shoot them. I asked myself – how is this reasonable?" The same unnamed NCO said that his commanding officer ordered soldiers on to a rooftop to shoot an old woman crossing a main street during the fighting. "I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story,” the NCO said. “I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder." Edited March 22, 2009 by tango Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I counted what? Six or seven 'dead' in all those posts. Some were perhaps repeats. Four Canadians died yesterday in Afghanistan. My point is if there truely was 1000 dead children and blasted baby milk factories, Hamas would have paraded them around as is the usual way with the Arabs. However, the vast majority were no doubt Hamas fighters otherwise there would have been a line-up of casualties at the Egyptian border when they opened it for medical aid. We've already fought over this ground. And Dog on Porch ... it's in vain that you try to blame reserves, when it's clear that the orders came from the commanding officers. Even reserves have officers. My point is that many hadn't ever seen real action...thus the pep talks. Not everyone is a IDF ape/swine or a Hamas terrorist scum. Last time you were in battle, how did you react to the chaos of war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 More Canadian dead hugh? Great - we can celebrate how heroic they are...doesn't anyone ever get killed in hand to hand or maybe a Viet Nam style fire fight? Why - and not to insult the families of the dead - are our dead akin to racoons getting hit on the side of some dusty Afghanisan road. Now on to autrocious behaviour - the Israelis can do not harm or wrong - they are holy Jews and sacred.. they are not human or capable of human nastiness...They are saints - and they protect them selves because they are God's people and God's people are worth a million too one - the common humas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) More Canadian dead hugh? Great - we can celebrate how heroic they are...doesn't anyone ever get killed in hand to hand or maybe a Viet Nam style fire fight? Why - and not to insult the families of the dead - are our dead akin to racoons getting hit on the side of some dusty Afghanisan road. Now on to autrocious behaviour - the Israelis can do not harm or wrong - they are holy Jews and sacred.. they are not human or capable of human nastiness...They are saints - and they protect them selves because they are God's people and God's people are worth a million too one - the common humas. Back during the Cold War, the Arabs were defacto Warsaw Pact nations complete with free Soviet weapons. Don't blame me for viewing them as such. They could have chose defacto NATO. But...hey...Israel already filled that role. Edited March 23, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Back during the Cold War, the Arabs were defacto Warsaw Pact nations complete with free Soviet weapons. Don't blame me for viewing them as such. They could have chose defacto NATO. But...hey...Israel already filled that role. Defacto - that's like "as if" or as if a government but not the government - or using Israel as a surrogate..and mean while others create the problems...Defacto is a dirty deflective term. I see what you are getting at - Why does the world not grasp this minor complexity? So the Soviets used the Arabs and the Americans used the Jews? Seems that old habits are hard to break. It reminds me of what wrecked Africa by killing all of the male protective heads of black families... Super powers eating the place by sending in operatives on a large scale..and destroying a civilization - but that's okay - seeing the Russians are racist as are the Americans..killing blacks and starving them out - with the UN parasite egg heads supervising the slow genocide - is real DEFACTOISM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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