What other way should Israel respond?

[Avro]

Diplomacy is the only option available to Israel that will translate into long-term peace.

Tell that to the assholes lobbing rockets into Isreal. Tell me, how do you negotiate with a government that wants Isreal wiped off the map and continues to fire missles indescriminatly into your neighborhoods?

[M.Dancer]

I think it's important for people to remember that from 1967 - 1987, Israel was able to control all of Gaza & The West Bank with 300-400 soldiers.

If Palestinians were incapable of living peacefully with Israelis, than there would have been problems on day one, but in fact the general population remained peaceful for 20 years.

I find that incredibly hard to believe, mainly because it is false.

Jan 14, 1967 - Terrorists laid a land mine that at a soccer game, which exploded killing 1 and injuring 2.

Mar 06, 1968 - A terrorist explosion at the Hebrew University cafeteria wounded dozens of students.

Mar 18, 1968 - Terrorists laid a land mine that blew up a school bus, killing 2 children and injuring 28 others.

Sep 04, 1968 - Palestinian terrorists planted explosives in the Tel Aviv bus station, killing one person, and wounding 70.

Sep 22, 1968 - Palestinian terrorists booby trapped a car. The car exploded in the shopping market Mahen Yehuda in Jerusalem, killing 12 people and wounding 70.

Jun 17, 1969 - Shirley Louise Anderson, a 25 year -old tourist from Rochester, New York, was killed when PLO shelled the Israeli resort town of Kallia

Dec 27, 1969 - Leon Holz, 48, a tourrist from Brooklyn, New York was killed when PLO terrorists fired shots at a tourist bus near Hebron

Feb 21, 1970 - Barbara Ertle, of Grandville, Michigan, wife of Reverend Theodore Ertl, was killed during a PLO terrorist shooting attack on a busload of pilgrims in the village of Halhoul, near Hebron

May 22, 1970- Palestinian terrorists attacked a school bus at the Mosha Avivim in the Upper Galilee. 9 children, the driver and 2 other adults are killed, and 19 children are wounded.

Jan 22, 1971 - Palestinian terrorists attacked an Israeli family in the Gaza Strip, killing 2 children and wounding the mother.

Jul 07, 1971 - Palestinian terrorists launched Katushya rockets on Petach Tikva, near Tel Aviv, killing 3 women and one child.

Oct 09, 1971 - A terrorist threw a hand grenade at the Western Wall, wounding 16 Israelis.

May 30, 1972 - Terrorists from the Red Army allied with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine shoot indiscriminately in the Lod airport, killing 25 people and wounding 70. One of those killed was Aharon Katzir, an internationally renowned scientist.

Mar 05, 1974 - Eight PLO terrorists reached Tel Aviv by sea and took over a hotel killing 3 Israeli soldiers.

Apr 11, 1974 - PLO terrorists attacked Kiryat Shmona, killing 8 children, 8 adults, and 2 soldiers.

May 15, 1974 - Maalot Massacre: 22 children and several adults were killed (66 children were wounded) by Palestinian terrorists of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine

Nov 19, 1974 - PLO terrorists infiltrate into the town of Bet She'an, killing 4 residents and wounding 20 others.

Nov 20, 1974 - PLO terrorists infiltrated from Syria into the Ramat Magshimim settlement, killing 3 students and wounding 2.

Dec 11, 1974 - A terrorist threw a bomb into a Tel Aviv movie theater killing 2 people and wounding 60 others.

Nov 21, 1975 - Michael Nadler, an American-Israeli student from Miami Beach, Florida, was killed when axe-wielding terrorists from the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a PLO faction, attacked students at in the Israeli town of Ramat Hamagshimim.

Apr 28, 1976 - A terrorist explosion in the heart of Jerusalem killed 2 police officers.

Dec 08, 1977 - PLO terrorists launched a Katushya rocket at Nahariya, killing one woman.

Mar 11, 1978 - PLO terrorists seized a bus on the coastal road, killing 35 men, women, and children.

Mar 11, 1978 - Gali Rubin, niece of U.S Senator Abraham Ribicoff, was shot to death by PLO terrorists on the Tel-Aviv beachfront.

Mar 17, 1978 - PLO terrorists launched Katushyas on the Western Galilee, killing 2 and wounding 2.

Jun 02, 1978 - A PLO terrorist bomb blows up in a bus in Jerusalem killing 6 people and wounding 19.

Aug 03, 1978 - A terrorist bomb blew up in the Carmel Market in Tel Aviv, killing 1 and wounding nearly 50.

Dec 21, 1978 - PLO terrorists launched a katushya rocket, which killed 1 and wounded 10 in Kiryat Shmona.

Apr 22, 1979 - Terrorists killed a father his two daughters and a policeman in Netanya.

Apr 07, 1980 - PLO terrorists attacked Kibbutz Misgav Am at the northern border, killing 3 Israelis and wounding 16.

May 02, 1980 - PLO terrorists attacked worshipers walking home from synagogue in Hebron. Eli Haze'ev, an American-Israeli from Alexandria, Virginia, was one of those killed.

Oct 05, 1980 - A terrorist planted a bomb in a package which exploded in a post office in Givatayim, killing 3 and wounding 7 Israelis.

Mar 06, 1981 - A Palestinian terrorist landed in Israel by wind surfer and took a hostage.

Jan 08, 1983 - PLO terrorists wound 11 after throwing a hand grenade at a bus.

Jul 01, 1983 - Aharon Gross, age 19, an American-Israeli from New York, was stabbed to death by PLO terrorists in the Hebron marketplace.

Dec 06, 1983 - PLO terrorists attacked a bus in Jerusalem, killing 6 Israeli citizens and wounding 50.

Apr 02, 1984 - A Palestinian terrorist indiscriminately opened fire in West Jerusalem killing 1 and injuring 60.

Apr 12, 1984 - PLO terrorists hijacked bus #300, killing one Israeli. Two terrorists are captured alive and later beaten to death by General Security Service agents.

Oct 22, 1984 - Palestinian terrorists murdered 2 students one male and one female, near a monastery in Bethlehem.

Nov 06, 1984 - IDF soldier David Manos was kidnapped and murdered by terrorists on the Lod-Petah Tikva road. His body was found on 14 March 1986 near the village of Dir Balut. His murderers were apprehended.

Nov 29, 1984 - IDF soldier Hadas Kedmi was kidnapped by terrorists after entering a vehicle in which she hitched a ride. Her body was found at the Carmel foothills near Kibbutz Beit Oren on 11 Dec 1994.

Jun 10, 1985 - Reservist David Pelzan, from Eilat, was kidnapped by terrorists and murdered. His body was discovered at the Kissufim junction.

Jun 27, 1985 - An Israeli man and woman were shot to death by terrorists near Beit Shemesh. The perpetrators were caught and claimed affiliation with Fatah.

Aug 03, 1986 - Yaron Chen, a Tsahal soldier, was kidnapped by Hamas terrorists while hitch-hiking back home. His body was later found in the burnt truck.

Oct 15, 1986 - Terrorists threw a grenade at the Western Wall killing Gail Klein and injuring 69 people.

Apr 11, 1987 - Palestinian terrorists threw a bomb into the car of Ofra Moses, who burned to death. Her family members were also injured in the incident.

Sep 04, 1987 - A Palestinian terrorist murdered a hitchhiking soldier at Megido Junction.

Oct 21, 1987 - Palestinian terrorists murdered an 8 year old girl from Elon Moreh.

Nov 25, 1987 - A PLO terrorist infiltrated from Jordan on a hang glider. He entered an Israeli army base, and killed 6 soldiers.

Dec 28, 1987 - December 28th to the 29th Israeli postal workers discovered 8 terrorist letter bombs. One exploded that wounded 2 Israelis.

Mar 07, 1988 - PLO terrorists infiltrated from Egypt, killing 3 nuclear reactor workers riding a bus.

Apr 08, 1988 - Palestinian terrorists attacked a group of hikers, causing one girl to die, wounding 15.

Jun 15, 1988 - A Palestinian terrorist stabbed to death Professor Menahem Stern while walking through the Valley of the Cross, in Jerusalem.

Aug 20, 1988 - Terrorists exploded a bomb in a Haifa pedestrian mall, injuring 25 Israeli shoppers.

Oct 30, 1988 - Palestinian terrorists firebombed an Israeli bus in Jericho, killing a mother and her 3 children.

http://www.lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

[eyeball]

This is unacceptable to any sovereign state with the means to respond with force.

Occupation is apparently unacceptable for people too, even those who don't have the means to respond with force.

[eyeball]

Please tell us how the nation of Israel should have responded to the rocket attacks from Gaza.

Non-violently.

[Oleg Bach]

Please tell us how the nation of Israel should have responded to the rocket attacks from Gaza.Explosive laden rockets,inaccurate,fired in the general direction of Israel with a greater than even chance of hitting civilians.Repeatedly,with no advance warning given by the way.And keep in mind,many of the launching sites are within densely populated civilian areas,often among women and children.

For all those opposed to a limited military response(Israel's current action),what other options are better?Perhaps a chorus of zombies chanting the Lennon "peace" song within earshot of the Hamas leadership?

How the hell would you respond?And remember,there would be no Israeli military action in Gaza now if Hamas didn't START this mess by lobbing rockets!

Israel should have responded with a sense of responsiblity a long time ago. So far they are non-reponsive to the needs of others - other than their own - this selfishness is what slowly brought about this chaos and mayhem...they should have embraced and assimulated the Palistinans back in 1948 - but NO - they simply robbed then and ghettoized them - now they pay....Like I said before - typical Jewish cheapness and arrogant racism. Now it's more economical to exterminate their could have been brothers.

[sharkman]

Non-violently.

They already tried that. How about after several years of non-violent response to rocket attacks?

[eyeball]

They already tried that. How about after several years of non-violent response to rocket attacks?

Try harder.

[JB Globe]

Tell me, how do you negotiate with a government that wants Isreal wiped off the map and continues to fire missles indescriminatly into your neighborhoods?

The same way Israel negotiated with Jordan and Egypt, two nations that at one time wanted Israel wiped off the face of the map, and today have peace treaties with Israel.

Remember, once upon a time, Fatah was the PLO, and the PLO used terrorist tactics, now Israel has no problem negotiating with them. Also remember that Israel supported Hamas in the 70's & 80's when the PLO/Fatah was the bad guy and when they needed a counter-balance.

Contrary to popular belief - in the Middle East, not everything stays the same.

Israel can and MUST negotiate with Hamas if it really wants long-term peace.

There is no other way, and the long-term failure of this recent campaign will prove this.

[bush_cheney2004]

The same way Israel negotiated with Jordan and Egypt, two nations that at one time wanted Israel wiped off the face of the map, and today have peace treaties with Israel.

....and over $100 billion in US foreign aid between all of them. If the world wants peace so bad, let's see you open your wallets.

Edited January 6, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[JB Globe]

I find that incredibly hard to believe, mainly because it is false.

After checking, I had the wrong figure: it was 300-400 for Gaza, and 1200 soldiers total for Gaza & the West Bank.

Source: Friedman, Thomas. From Beirut to Jersualem. Page 328. First Anchor Books. 1990.

Please note that the website you posted is incredibly biased.

However, my point still remains is that for 20 years Israel maintained a number of active troops in Palestine that is far below what they currently employ. They did this because Palestinians co-operated with the occupation in the hopes of achieving at least some of their aspirations for statehood or political representation.

Palestinian professor and president of Al-Quds University notes: "For 95% percent of the contact points (Israeli army offices in Gaza & WB that dealt with Palestinians directly) to be effective . . . They required our consent and cooperation. For example, you were sent an order telling you to come to the military governor's office in Beth El, and you knew that they were going to arrest you, yet you came anyway, on your own, instead of just ignoring the order and forcing the Israelis to send a whole army unit to your village to get you. You were told you needed a building permit to add a wing to your house. Instead of just building the wing and ignoring the Israelis, most people went down and waited in line for a permit, without anyone holding a gun to their heads."

Palestinians did this for 20 years because they hoped it would translate into political representation within Israel, or statehood. In fact, the opposite happened - they became completely co-opted by the Israeli economy and in turn dependent on it. This is one of the reasons which lead to the intifada in the first place.

[JB Globe]

Like I said before - typical Jewish cheapness and arrogant racism.

There's hundreds of ways to build an argument against Israeli policies without resorting to bigotry. You don't need to be anti-Semitic.

[M.Dancer]

Please note that the website you posted is incredibly biased.

Facts aren't biased.

However, my point still remains is that for 20 years Israel maintained a number of active troops in Palestine that is far below what they currently employ. They did this because Palestinians co-operated with the occupation in the hopes of achieving at least some of their aspirations for statehood or political representation.

During that time of cooperation, the terrorists murdered a couple of hundred people, mostly women and children.

[blueblood]

The same way Israel negotiated with Jordan and Egypt, two nations that at one time wanted Israel wiped off the face of the map, and today have peace treaties with Israel.

Remember, once upon a time, Fatah was the PLO, and the PLO used terrorist tactics, now Israel has no problem negotiating with them. Also remember that Israel supported Hamas in the 70's & 80's when the PLO/Fatah was the bad guy and when they needed a counter-balance.

Contrary to popular belief - in the Middle East, not everything stays the same.

Israel can and MUST negotiate with Hamas if it really wants long-term peace.

There is no other way, and the long-term failure of this recent campaign will prove this.

Israel will negotiate with Hamas, after it kicks the crap out of them like it has to Jordan, Egypt, and the PLO. Better to negotiate from a position of strength not weakness.

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel will negotiate with Hamas, after it kicks the crap out of them like it has to Jordan, Egypt, and the PLO. Better to negotiate from a position of strength not weakness.

May as well, because Hamas will only exacerbate the situation until it no longer has the means to do so. Hamas is only relevant with blood and guts strewn about the place.

[Peter F]

....and over $100 billion in US foreign aid between all of them. If the world wants peace so bad, let's see you open your wallets.

Apparently the USofA wants peace that bad: ergo $100 billiion in US foreign aid...and it works! Who gives a hoot what the world wants - its what the US wants that matters...and its getting what it wants.

[OddSox]

Apparently the USofA wants peace that bad: ergo $100 billiion in US foreign aid...and it works! Who gives a hoot what the world wants - its what the US wants that matters...and its getting what it wants.

Oh, and what is the US getting out of it, other than grief like this?

[JB Globe]

Facts aren't biased.

If those were what settles for facts around here, than I'm going to go and set up my own personal weblog stating that pigs can fly and it will be true, because if it's in a personal weblog, than that's good enough for you.

Seriously, if someone posted "Israeli atrocities" from some extreme natinoalist Palestinian's website, and they weren't sourced to any independent source, you'd do exactly what I'm doing now and rightly so.

Stop being so partisan.

Statements on personal weblogs about news events are worthless unless they link to an actual independent source that verifies the claim.

During that time of cooperation, the terrorists murdered a couple of hundred people, mostly women and children.

And how many of those originated in the West Bank or Gaza? And how many of those were initiated by the PLO in exile, whom were acting with their own agenda?

In short - how violent were the citizens of the West Bank or Gaza all those years if 1200 troops were all that was necessary? How radical were they if when issued an arrest warrant, they'd walk themselves to the Israeli army office?

[LesterDC]

Oh, and what is the US getting out of it, other than grief like this?

If I were to follow that argument, I would say influence

[M.Dancer]

If those were what settles for facts around here, than I'm going to go and set up my own personal weblog stating that pigs can fly and it will be true, because if it's in a personal weblog, than that's good enough for you.

Are you questioning whether the attacks listed took place?

[M.Dancer]

In short - how violent were the citizens of the West Bank or Gaza all those years if 1200 troops were all that was necessary? How radical were they if when issued an arrest warrant, they'd walk themselves to the Israeli army office?

They had a warrent for Arafat. Why didn't he turn himself in?

[OddSox]

If I were to follow that argument, I would say influence

So, the US spends $100 billion for influence, not oil?

I believe they are doing their best to aid the possibility of peace in the region, while still protecting their own interests - which is not unreasonable. In fact, peace throughout the region is probably in America's best interest - that's what keeps oil prices down. Meanwhile, there are a lot of other countries who have lots to say, but little to contribute.

Edited January 6, 2009 by OddSox

[JB Globe]

Israel will negotiate with Hamas, after it kicks the crap out of them like it has to Jordan, Egypt, and the PLO. Better to negotiate from a position of strength not weakness.

The best-case scenario for Israel in the Gaza War is for a temporary halt in rocket attacks. Within a year, the tunnels to Egypt will be re-built (they were built in months in the first place) the rockets will be smuggled in, and things will be back to the way they were a few years ago. Just like how Hezbollah in Lebanon has re-supplied itself and reconstituted it's strength. Unless Israel is prepared to attack like this every year, for eternity, the situation will not change - in fact it may get worse.

Conventional militaries simply cannot suppress guerilla warfare tactics and/or terrorist tactics with conventional military force. So Israel will NOT secure their long-term security with this strategy.

Also, Jordan & Egypt did not "have the crap kicked out of them" in the sense that their armies were annihilated. Israel defeated the invading forces and won, but there was no massive capitulation a la WWII with the Japanese. Similarly in Gaza, Israel does not have the capacity to "kick the crap" out of Hamas - they can temporarily wound them at best.

Israelis themselves decided to pursue peace once things had cooled down, because they knew another conflict was a inevitable and they were tired of constantly having to fight for their lives. So they worked for 10 or 15 years at the diplomatic game and got peace treaties. That shifted the balance of power in the region and they haven't faced an invasion since.

I firmly believe that if Israel made a good-faith effort to establish negotiations with Hamas you would see them moderate their position and tactics. It happened with the PLO which became Fatah (who, by the way, never had the crap kicked out of them) and there's no reason why it can't happen with Hamas. I guess it's just going to have to wait until Israelis are tired of fighting wars in Gaza every year.

It's not going to be easy, in fact, it will probably be more difficult politically than launching wars all the time - but the pay off is enormous: peace and security, for good. Rather than wars every few years and the inevitable war crimes that go along with them.

Edited January 6, 2009 by JB Globe

[JB Globe]

Are you questioning whether the attacks listed took place?

I'm not repeating myself on that, you can read my post again if you're so unsure.

But I will repeat this point which you're dancing around: if Palestinians were inherently violent, than the first 20 years of the occupation of Palestine would not have produced such cooperation and peace in Gaza & the West Bank.

[JB Globe]

They had a warrent for Arafat. Why didn't he turn himself in?

Because there are always exceptions.

Please don't tell me you're going to try and use Arafat's exile adventures as a means of distracting from the fact that the general Palestinian population in Gaza & the West Bank were cooperative and relatively peaceful for the first 20 years of the occupation.

[M.Dancer]

Because there are always exceptions.

Please don't tell me you're going to try and use Arafat's exile adventures as a means of distracting from the fact that the general Palestinian population in Gaza & the West Bank were cooperative and relatively peaceful for the first 20 years of the occupation.

No I used instead the 100s of murders and attacks launched by the residents of Gaza and the West Bank.