M.Dancer Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I'm not repeating myself on that, you can read my post again if you're so unsure.But I will repeat this point which you're dancing around: if Palestinians were inherently violent, than the first 20 years of the occupation of Palestine would not have produced such cooperation and peace in Gaza & the West Bank. Okay then, we agree that the events listed are factual then we must agree that if that was peace, war is preferable. Better open war than incideous terrorism. Here, another list, same events... http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Isra...splayMode=print Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) .... Meanwhile, there are a lot of other countries who have lots to say, but little to contribute. Hey, I like how you think. Show me the money! Edited January 7, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 How to stop the rockets?Prevention would've been a good start. How about recognising the legitimacy of hamas much to their chagrin and not starving Gaza for the last 18 months with blockades? Hamas has repeatedly said over the years that they are no longer seeking to destroy Israel, they just want to re-establish the 1967 borders. Israel got the preconditions that they wanted, why go on? Food and shelter are basic human needs. The blockades were preventing the basic needs of Gaza. Why do Israelis have the right to protect themselves but Gazans don't? I seriously doubt that the Israelis want to purposely starve people within Gaza.As for Hamas only wanting the 1967 borders re-established,that will not solve the problem either.Did Israel have peace and security previous to 1967?The answer is of course,no.The openly hostile Arab nations surrounding Israel tried to defeat the IDF on the battlefield,1948,1956,and 1967.Don't forget 1973 either.There is a a measure of peace with some of her Arab neighbors,paid for with many lives lost on all sides.Having learned the hard way that Israel cannot be defeated on the battlefield,the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah will always resort to cowardly attacks. What might the present situation be like if ALL financial aid coming into Gaza was used for the benefit of the population instead of being used for weapons and the promotion of hatred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddSox Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Hey, I like how you think. Show me the money!I wish I could, but I'm also in favour of cutting taxes and less government spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Facts aren't biased. The website deals with "arab sponsored terrorist attacks" and fails to even mention anything about Jewish terrorist activites like Irgun. Moreover, it claims that the genesis of the problem was an attack in 1920, when in actuality the conflict between the two sides goes back way further. That website is as biased as it gets, and I'm sure you would be crowing about bias in an instant if someone posted a similar website focusing solely on Jewish terrorism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 The website deals with "arab sponsored terrorist attacks" and fails to even mention anything about Jewish terrorist activites like Irgun. It doesn't have any chinese rice recipes either. Funny that, considering the site deals with arab terrorism that there should be no mention of chinese cooking or or jewish terrorists of over 50 years ago. What will they not cover next? Finnish Flolk Festivals? Must be censorship... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Diplomacy is the only option available to Israel that will translate into long-term peace. Diplomacy???? How many times should Israel make diplomatic gestures? It doesn't work. What is the use of diplomacy when at the same time the other party is lobbing bombs or running people down with tractors or whatever. Compromise is what is needed. Compromise demands bilateral actions. Diplomacy demands nothing. By definition compromise is each side satisfying each other's demands. If that doesn't happen you don't have compromise, you have war. If it happens that one of the demands of one side is the extermination of the other side.....well? How naive is it to believe that the statement by Hamas that "Hamas no longer requires the extermination of Israel" has any meaning? Here today, exterminate tomorrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Okay then, we agree that the events listed are factual then we must agree that if that was peace, war is preferable. Better open war than incideous terrorism. Here, another list, same events... http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Isra...splayMode=print How about an independent source for a change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 How about an independent source for a change? Sorry I don't do hoops. I gave you two. If you can find an opposing site that casts doubt go for it. Otherwise be content that they have reported known history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Diplomacy???? How many times should Israel make diplomatic gestures? It doesn't work. When Israel made good-faith diplomatic efforts, consistently, they worked, both times: Egypt worked, Jordan worked. Compromise is what is needed. That's what I'm talking about, diplomatic compromise, not a pointless war which will achieve none of it's long-term objectives. How naive is it to believe that the statement by Hamas that "Hamas no longer requires the extermination of Israel" has any meaning? Here today, exterminate tomorrow? How naive is it to believe that Hamas will never change? After all, the PLO were devils until they became Fatah, and now Israel negotiates with them and assists them. Hamas used to get Israeli assistance, until they became devils. Hamas changed in the past, but it can't change now? Why exactly? How naive is it to think in light of these 180s that Hamas has hardliners and pragmatists just like any other organization? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Sorry I don't do hoops. I gave you two. If you can find an opposing site that casts doubt go for it. Otherwise be content that they have reported known history. So what you're saying is that as long as I find two sources that say the same thing, that means it's true? No matter how biased they may be? Independent sources be damned? Because then anyone can "prove" anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 The bulk of Irgun's attacks were during a period known as the Arab Revolt where Arabs were conducting pogroms on Jewish residents. Hagana was formed at the same time. The Arab Revolt was led by...guess...yup...you got it... Das Grosse Mufti. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun...uring_the_1930s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936-1939_Ara...lt_in_Palestine ------------------------------------------------- We know that these clashes with Asia and Jewry are necessary for evolution. ---Heinrich Himmler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 So what you're saying is that as long as I find two sources that say the same thing, that means it's true? No matter how biased they may be? Independent sources be damned?Because then anyone can "prove" anything. Now I'm saying like the yesterdays we,ather I can find dozens that will have the same reports. How biased can the death of a Israeli gorl be? What do you think, they left out that she provoked the terrorist? Christ almighty, I remember quite well some of the later events... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I think it's important for people to remember that from 1967 - 1987, Israel was able to control all of Gaza & The West Bank with 300-400 soldiers. If Palestinians were incapable of living peacefully with Israelis, than there would have been problems on day one, but in fact the general population remained peaceful for 20 years. The reasoning was that by playing by the rules, they would eventually get one of two outcomes prescribed by international law for occupied people: either they would get the rights as a citizens of the occupier (ie - the right to vote), or they would get an independent state, or autonomy.They had autonomy and squandered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) Double post. Edited January 7, 2009 by jbg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) How to stop the rockets?Prevention would've been a good start. How about recognising the legitimacy of hamas much to their chagrin and not starving Gaza for the last 18 months with blockades? Hamas has repeatedly said over the years that they are no longer seeking to destroy Israel, they just want to re-establish the 1967 borders. Israel got the preconditions that they wanted, why go on? Food and shelter are basic human needs. The blockades were preventing the basic needs of Gaza. Why do Israelis have the right to protect themselves but Gazans don't? Sorry BC Hamas has not. Just not true. In October of 2008 the Interior Minister of Hamas went to Tehran and entered into an open military alliance with Iran which announced it would train 6,500 Hamas soldiers to continue their war to take back Israel. It is one of the key triggering forces of the latest outbreak. With due respect BC Chick I think your are confusing Palestinian people with Hamas. Palestinian people are traumatized and faced with anhiliation and want to be left alone. In my opinion they voted in Hamas not for violence or terror but because they wanted a corupt free government that would not steal the foreign aid money and help them build a country. Hamas violated that trust and moral obligation. The first thing it did was seal the borders with Israel and blow greenhouses, buildings and roads built by Israel and roads leading to Israel. It then told its citizens anyone who spoke out calling for peace with Israel would be considered a collaborator and some did and had tires placed on their necks and then were lit on fire. I think your concept of what Hamas is and thinking it will sit and talk is with due respect based on your distance from them and not understanding who they are and what they think. All you have to do is read their own statements a few which I have listed. May I respectfully point out that when Hamas violently took the Gaza from Fatah , the first words out of is leader, Dr Al-Zahar's mouth in a speech stated that Hamas had "dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it...I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel). This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land". (source: Khaled Abu Toameh, April 2, 2006, article entitled, "'I dream of a map without Israel', Jerusalem Post also on Hamas' web-site). This is why Hamas will say things like: Hamas “must lay the foundation for a tomorrow without Zionists.” (Hamas leader Mahmoud a-Zahar, Al-Aqsa TV, January 4, 2009) The economic crisis is the result of) “bad administrative and financial management and a bad banking system put into place and controlled by the Jewish lobby.” (The Jewish lobby) “controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy." (Hamas Spokesman Fawzi Barhum, October 7, 2008; as reported by AFP and other news agencies) “...the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: ‘I kill, therefore I am’... Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah's will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs].” (Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007) This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them.” (Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007) We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path.” (Hamas statement in response to criticism by Al-Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahri, March 12, 2007) “[Hamas will] never recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state that was founded on our land.” (Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader, February 3, 2006, Al-Hayyat al-Jedida) “[Hamas] will not change a single word in its covenant [which is calling for the destruction of Israel].” (Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha'aretz) So with due respect BC Chick this idea you have that Hamas can be negotiated with isn't realistic and for it to happen, they would first need to put down their weapons. Up until now they have openly stated if they agree to a truce, it is only to re-arm. They said this all the way through the last truce with Israel openly and that is why there was an embargo, weapons continued to be smuggled in from Syria, Egypt and Iran and precisely why in April, June, July, August and then in December of 2008, Hamas openly and blatantly violated the truce and shot missiles into Israel to try break the truce but Israel resisted response based on requests from Mr. Abbas, Turkey, and Egypt and at one point King Abdullah of Jordan. Israel even resisted responding on June 14, 2008 when Hamas openly admitted it tried to kidnap an IDF soldier and sent in a flurry of missiles as deflection to try pull off this manouver and which later led in December of 2008 to another incident only this time, Shin Bet the interior counter-terrorist organization of Israel (its Homeland Security/FBI) had an informant that tipped them off of the kidnap attempt and so the tunnel bringing in the Hamas operatives was blown up with them inside it. The real challenge I would suggest is trying to find Palestinian moderates who will not be abused or killed by Hamas extremists who will sit and talk with Israeli state officials about peace. Any Palestinian seen as negotiating with Israel is automatically seen by Hamas and over 800 other autonomous terror cells in the West Bank and Gaza as a collaborator traitor running the risk of being assassinated. Mr. Abbas does not even have the support of his organization in the West Bank and it looks like he won't be re-elected precisely because of his call for peace talks. I think it is ludicrous to ask anyone to sit across from someone whose charter is to wipe you out and negotiate. What do you negotiate? The weapons to be used to exterminate you-the choice of extermination? It is precisely why the IRA had to disarm and remove from its charter references to taking back Northern Ireland before negotiations could commence. To date Hamas will not do that and I personally do not believe they ever will since it would appear they killed off anyone remotely moderate or forced them into exile. It is probably why you will not see an end to this until some serious alternative to Hamas emerges to speak for the people of Gaza. Telling someone to talk to a deaf man is pointless. Telling someone to talk while another is screaming is pointless. Telling someone to talk to the person that shoots missiles at them is absurd. Finding moderates in Palestine to represent their people is the key to this. Find them and there are sufficient moderates in Israel who could then talk down their right wing factions saying the only alternative is military force. As long as there is no one to talk to in Gaza, Israeli moderates look like idiots trying to suggest they should speak to Hamas when missiles come in everyday. Hamas deliberately shot its missiles in to humiliate moderates Tzipi Levi and Ehud Barak and bolster a right wing back lash to vote in Netanyahu. They did it once before and they thought they could do it again. The targedy is the longer this drags out, the more Palestinian civilians will die being used as shields and the more IDF soldiers will die and in the end the rocket launchers will not stop. Hezbollah proved you can not stop the smuggling in and launching of hand held rockets or highly accurate long distance rockets. Hamas knows that. They believe it is morally acceptable to use their civilians as shields and pawns. The more of them that die the more it will dettract from Hamas and its agenda and raise anger at Israel. At this point Israel does not care anymore what people think. It has sat for years having missiles shot at it and having to listen to people say they should just sit there and do nothing. For Israel this is yet another existential war and being hated by the entire world is just another day in the life of Israelis. It is tragic Palestinians die and are condemned in a world of horror and poverty. They need homes, water, jobs, peace. Disarm the terrorists and anything positive is possible. Keep the arms there, and this continues. Want the IDF shut up? Disarm terrorists and allow moderates to rule not terrorists. Give Palestinians an option to violence from their own leaders and they will be given an option other then the IDF from Israel. Edited January 7, 2009 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Facts aren't biased.During that time of cooperation, the terrorists murdered a couple of hundred people, mostly women and children. Yes, but they were just Jews. More importantly, the rockets they fire aren't into his neighborhood, so he can afford to be sanctimonious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Conventional militaries simply cannot suppress guerilla warfare tactics and/or terrorist tactics with conventional military force. So Israel will NOT secure their long-term security with this strategy. Dunno about that. Syria managed it quite well. Of course, they weren't bleeding heart liberal types like the Jews. The Syrians simply shelled the living hell out of the whole city, killing tens of thousands of people. Peace in our time. The Muslim Brotherhood never bothered them again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Now I'm saying like the yesterdays we,ather I can find dozens that will have the same reports. All I'm saying is, in the future, try not to use stats from biased websites that ARE NOT INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED. I mean, if those sites had hyperlinks to news reports, that would be independent confirmation and that would be fine. But like I said if the situation was reversed, and someone was posting events from a personal blog of a hardline Palestinian nationalist, and they weren't sourced, OR if someone was posting info from Fatah's website - you'd be the first to disregard them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Yes, but they were just Jews.More importantly, the rockets they fire aren't into his neighborhood, so he can afford to be sanctimonious. Do you want me to put you on my ignore list? Stop being immature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Dunno about that. Syria managed it quite well. Of course, they weren't bleeding heart liberal types like the Jews. The Syrians simply shelled the living hell out of the whole city, killing tens of thousands of people. If only more nations had complete and utter disregard for human life, huh? We could get rid of this global terrorism problem quite quickly, just a few well placed nukes, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Do you want me to put you on my ignore list?Stop being immature. Do you think for a moment I would care!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 If only more nations had complete and utter disregard for human life, huh? We could get rid of this global terrorism problem quite quickly, just a few well placed nukes, right? Nobody seemed to be very upset with Syria. There were no mass outcries, no threats of boycotts. The Arab world did not scream for revenge. Apparently it was no big deal. It's only a big deal when Jews kill someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) When Israel made good-faith diplomatic efforts, consistently, they worked, both times:Egypt worked, Jordan worked. That's what I'm talking about, diplomatic compromise, not a pointless war which will achieve none of it's long-term objectives. How naive is it to believe that Hamas will never change? After all, the PLO were devils until they became Fatah, and now Israel negotiates with them and assists them. Hamas used to get Israeli assistance, until they became devils. Hamas changed in the past, but it can't change now? Why exactly? How naive is it to think in light of these 180s that Hamas has hardliners and pragmatists just like any other organization? My only point is the word you're looking for isn't diplomacy. It's compromise. There's nothing naive in assuming since no lasting compromise between Jews and Arabs has occurred in decades if not centuries that no lasting compromise is about to occur. The only compromises that have been "successful" have been those "forcefully" imposed by the US. Hardly diplomacy. Hardly compromise. Sounds Churchillian? No? Edited January 8, 2009 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 My only point is the word you're looking for isn't diplomacy. It's compromise. There's nothing naive in assuming since no lasting compromise between Jews and Arabs has occurred in decades if not centuries that no lasting compromise is about to occur. The only compromises that have been "successful" have been those "forcefully" imposed by the US. Hardly diplomacy. Hardly compromise. Sounds Churchillian? No? If peace was truly desired, then there should be a single choice of location for the Palestinians, the west bank or Gaza. As it stands no other nation either Arab or Jew is willing to give these people some land. Perhaps because they are terrorists, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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