Greek Rioting shows the soft underbelly of Europe

[Argus]

Now don't get me wrong. I'm as much for freedom of speech, association and expression as the next guy. Actually, I'm MORE in favour of them than the next guy. But I'm also very much in favour of order in the streets, whatever it takes to maintain it.

We don't have the kind of violent street protests which increasingly seem common in Europe. And I think that is because we, as a community, simply do not tolerate that sort of thing.

In Greece, apparently, violence by leftists and anarchists is common. Throwing fireboms at the police is an acceptable form of political protest. Anarchists even lay in wait for police, luring them into traps so they can attack them in groups of thirty or forty, pelting them with rocks and firebombs. Last weekend one such little party resulted in one of the assailants being shot. Now in Canada, we'd probably say "Serves the little bastard right" and congratulate the cop on his good shooting. In Greece, the two cops have been arrested, and the government ministers are practically falling all over themselves begging the leftist and anarchist protestors - who are rioting in the streets burning buildings and throwing firebombs at police - to forgive them. Instead of shooting these people throwing firebombs - which is what police in Canada would probably do - they're letting them have free reign to do as they wish.

I thought the Greeks were tough, but apparently they've inherited that sense of spineless, hand-wringing left wing wimpishness which can be so readily seen in the rest of Europe.

[Rue]

I hope you do not live in Toronto and plan to visit a restaurant on the Danforth.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Charles Anthony
deleted re-copied Opening Post

[August1991]

I thought the Greeks were tough, but apparently they've inherited that sense of spineless, hand-wringing left wing wimpishness which can be so readily seen in the rest of Europe.

Argus, I think you are ignoring modern Greek political history. If you have the patience, there is a good movie by Costa-Gavras called Z. (IMHO, Costa Gavras best film is The Music Box but I digress.)

I'm not condoning the violence but I'm trying to put your post in perspective.

[Sir Bandelot]

Why do you think we are really different?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...action0811.html

[Cameron]

Why do you think we are really different?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...action0811.html

That's Montreal, a city that is very charged-up.

[August1991]

That's Montreal, a city that is very charged-up.

No police officer was charged in that case (unlike in Greece). In Montreal, there was a police investigation and now there will be another civilian investigation.

The violence in Montreal was nothing like what is happening now in Greece where protestors have occupied university campuses and are using various arms to fight against police.

Compared to other large cities in Canada, Montreal is remarkable for its relative peace and lack of gang shootings.

[Shakeyhands]

I haven't seen anywhere in the media why the officers decided to shoot the guy, and apparently it hasn't been made clear why one was charged with murder and the other charged with being an accomplice.

This part is interesting:

The two policemen charged in Saturday's shooting claimed they had come under attack by a group of about 30 youths, and that three warning shots and a stun grenade were fired when they sought out the group a few minutes later.

and then.. this?

The Police Officers' Association has apologized to the boy's family, and President Karolos Papoulias sent a telegram to his parents expressing his condolences.

I have a feeling the police went looking for trouble and unfortunately found it.

And I also wonder in cases like this if we ever hear the whole truth.

[OddSox]

I have a feeling the police went looking for trouble and unfortunately found it.

If a gang of 30 youths were running riot through the streets of my neighbourhood, I would expect the police to 'go looking for them'. You are right in that we will never know the entire story.

[Argus]

Why do you think we are really different?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...action0811.html

Yes, we are. The people rioting there were immigrants.

[Oleg Bach]

Just like the ones in France last years described by the American press as Afro-american rioters...funny - none were from America and all were Afro - maybe the Americans figure that all blacks originate in North America? European liberalism is the worst fago**ty in the world - total spinelessness - I use the word fago**ty not as a reference to homosexuals but as a word of contempt for hetro-f*gs..who are men who are so feminized they are incapable of defending their own homes. If you listen to the average male media voice out of Europe - ALL have a high pitched soft tone...This is feminism gone bad..Even Germain Greer said in her old age that "we have feminized our men to the point that there is no one to protect woman and children anymore" - to paraphrase - Europe is run by girly men. AND for mocho immigrants from more primative and manly areas - the European political male is a push over.

[Sir Bandelot]

Yes, we are. The people rioting there were immigrants.

I don't see how that makes a truly significant difference. In these cases the hostility comes about the same way, regardless of the origins of their birth. They feel subjugated, oppressed, the have-nots. This frustration does not come from Europes "soft underbelly", but more specifically from the under-privileged.

[Oleg Bach]

Nawh - immigration and the international attitude and tone of entitlement that is pervasive amongst immigrants and wanna be immigrants is astounding. Take the Mexican migration...some are willing to sue the American Government on constututional grounds when they are not even Americans. We and Europe and America have made the fatal error of inviting people into our house who once they are in - stand up defiantly and say - "No this is not your house - we are taking it" To riot is not a show of respect to the host. It would be like arriving at a party and demanding a drink and a meal - and when the host does not please you quick enough you bloody his nose...are we stupid ..........when will we understand that the world has become a collection of gangs..tiny tribal ones right up the scale to international corporate ones - YOU HAVE TO PROTECT YOUR TERF OR YOU WILL BE OVER RUN. You show them mercey and grace - but they will show none for you...thats not good trade ---- why don't we just hand everything over to all immigrants everywhere and go off and die in a hollow log? We as a species are not that evolved yet to act in a civil and fair manner - untill we are - better lock the damned door.

[Shakeyhands]

If a gang of 30 youths were running riot through the streets of my neighbourhood, I would expect the police to 'go looking for them'.

As would I but it sounds more confrontational to me the way it was placed in the article if that makes sense, almost like a vendetta, you know? Pure conjecture.

[AngusThermopyle]

I guess a lot of people have forgotten a very basic concept.

If you threaten a police officer in any way do not be surprised if you get your ass kicked and kicked hard.

If you disturb the peace then dont be surprised when you get your ass kicked and kicked hard.

If you riot and loot then dont be surprised when you get your ass kicked and kicked hard.

So, I have no sympathy or empathy for those types of individuals. Dont give me any crap about oppressed and down trodden. How about instead of running around and burning and looting, commiting acts of violence these worthless sods get off their ass and do what countless others have done, work hard and sincerely to improve their lot in life.

Or is that asking too much of these poor worthless muffins?

[Argus]

I don't see how that makes a truly significant difference. In these cases the hostility comes about the same way, regardless of the origins of their birth. They feel subjugated, oppressed, the have-nots. This frustration does not come from Europes "soft underbelly", but more specifically from the under-privileged.

The difference is that how one reacts to something which angers one is dependant to a large degree on the culture in which one is raised. Most immigrants are raised in brutish, backward cultures which lacks the sophistication and nuanced approach to conflict of our own. That is why they are more prone to violence and crime than those raised in Canada. The Greeks, clearly, are of a similar ilk; uncivilized mouth breathers on the one hand, and cringing, weepy hand-wringers on the other.

[Argus]

As would I but it sounds more confrontational to me the way it was placed in the article if that makes sense, almost like a vendetta, you know? Pure conjecture.

It's kind of hard to be non-confrontational with people who are throwing rocks, bottles and firebombs at you.

[BC_chick]

Most immigrants are raised in brutish, backward cultures which lacks the sophistication and nuanced approach to conflict of our own. That is why they are more prone to violence and crime than those raised in Canada.

Right. I remember the riots back in 92 or 93 when Vancouver lost the Stanley Cup. Rioting over a professional sport, that's what you call 'sophistication and nuanced approach' to conflict...

The Greeks, clearly, are of a similar ilk; uncivilized mouth breathers on the one hand, and cringing, weepy hand-wringers on the other.

Maybe you can find a way to blame their immigrant population. Oh wait, Greeks can be swarthy enough on their own.... no need.

[Argus]

Right. I remember the riots back in 92 or 93 when Vancouver lost the Stanley Cup. Rioting over a professional sport, that's what you call 'sophistication and nuanced approach' to conflict...

No, that's what you call drunkness. And those "mini riots" don't compare to the ones where homes and businesses are burned to the ground and people are beaten up or killed.

Maybe you can find a way to blame their immigrant population. Oh wait, Greeks can be swarthy enough on their own.... no need.

I judge society's on the same level. Only bigots make excuses for people of different skin colours. As far as I'm concerned the Greeks, like the Russians, or Serbs, are "white" but that doesn't mean they're not backward and brutish societies.

[White Doors]

White yes. but really hairy!

[Shakeyhands]

It's kind of hard to be non-confrontational with people who are throwing rocks, bottles and firebombs at you.

As I said, none of us know what happened. But I hear what you are saying.

[GostHacked]

Rioting against something is not spineless. Possibly stupid, but not spineless.

[Oleg Bach]

Rioting against something is not spineless. Possibly stupid, but not spineless.

No it is spineless - to destroy something takes very little effort - just a lot of irresponsible rage - To create something and to maintain order takes guts and is not easy - Greek youth have taken the easy way out and by doing so will make themselves more poor and miserable...They can not and will not look ahead...all this cafuffle about a stupid "spineless" cop killing a boy, should have been dealt with quickly and promptly. If the Greek authorities were smart the alledged offending law enforcer should have been instantly jailed and held...this would have quelled the rampaging youth - but then again - the only thing that would have stopped them would be to send them all five thousand bucks and a new I-pod.

[August1991]

This is what I meant, Argus:

Watching television and video coverage of the riots that have swept through Greece this week, it is hard not to notice something curious: The police, for the most part, do not seem to be fighting back.

Except when stoned or pelted with Molotov cocktails themselves, they often left the rioters alone to smash store windows and set fire to buildings.

That apparent restraint springs from a November night in 1973 when the forces of a six-year-old dictatorship battered their way onto the campus of the Athens Polytechnic. No one knows the exact toll, but something like 40 people were killed, and the anger over their deaths helped bring down the military government.

G & M

[Jerry Galinda]

I guess a lot of people have forgotten a very basic concept.

If you threaten a police officer in any way do not be surprised if you get your ass kicked and kicked hard.

If you disturb the peace then dont be surprised when you get your ass kicked and kicked hard.

If you riot and loot then dont be surprised when you get your ass kicked and kicked hard.

So, I have no sympathy or empathy for those types of individuals. Dont give me any crap about oppressed and down trodden. How about instead of running around and burning and looting, commiting acts of violence these worthless sods get off their ass and do what countless others have done, work hard and sincerely to improve their lot in life.

Or is that asking too much of these poor worthless muffins?

I AGREE WITH YOU.

[Argus]

This is what I meant, Argus:G & M

I read it. I don't find their behaviour as a society any more acceptable because of it. They need to remove the ban on police entering universities, and start busting the heads of anarchists and dragging them off to prison for long periods of time.