Omar Khadr's Sister on Hunger Strike

[Peter F]

your act would solve nothing, except provide the Taliban with more postive media coverage and life would carry on in Afgan like any other day....

Yes. And me shooting the kid dead would have different results how?

[myata]

Cildren have been tried in adult courts for adult crimes before, and here is where your experts come in, if they can prove they did know right from wrong, and could make those major decisions then i say yes they should be tried and punished in adult courts....nobody gets away with capital crimes....and serving a few years in juvee is not punishment...

Except we aren't talking about a gang, etc. He's been raised and indoctrinated by his family and traveled and fought alongside his father. Now it's up to the "experts" of US military kangaroo court to figure out whether he new good from evil. Including that it's a high crime to resist military that itself is applying deadly force.

But sure, have it your way. We already know that virtually any act of goodness or otherwise can be rationalized justified and louded as absolutely necessary to uphold some greater good. Please note also that it works both ways. So by looking at the deeds of the do-gooders (note: not words; because each side knows to the utmost level of conviction, that their truth is the right one, and they're fighting only for the good to prevail), it's not always immediately obvious who is who.

[tango]

Angus is right. If you at least name one such occurance in 'white non-Muslim' culture, then the question has some validity beyond purely the hypothetical. The only thing dear old dad 'forces' me do with him in the wilderness is sit in a 12 foot car-topper until we reach our limit in trout. My friends growing-up enjoyed similar 'commando training' from their 'looneytoon' fathers.

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Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.

---Theodore Roosevelt

It is the ridiculous nature of my hypothetical scenario that is the point: It is ridiculous to think that a Canadian father would do that to his child. However, one did. And now we blame the child?

[WarBicycle]

I tried a different spot on Parliament Hill and it worked out great; I talked to more people from all different backgrounds and walks of life. I met a couple with children who took pins for their children, I also got a long visit from two University of Ottawa students who had heard I was there. I also met a Canadian man who had been living in Japan for the last 20 years and thought that it was very crazy what is happening in Canada today, and as we spoke I mentioned that my Canadian passport had been taken away, stranding me in the country, and I had been told it was a privilege and not a right and he thought that was very strange. All in all it was a very good day and by the time I went home I had given out all the pins I had and I felt very good about my self. While leaving Parliament, I met one last man who was interested in Omar's case, and I actually ended up giving him the very pin I was wearing. In the evening I watched the CBC documentary and as painful as it was, I pray that it would have touched people’s hearts…for Omar, Justice and Freedom.

Imagine that, she considers herself to be stranded in Canada.

Edited October 18, 2008 by WarBicycle

[myata]

I can very well imagine myself stranded if my freedom of movement were restricted, in any country.

Now, I'm not commenting on the reasons why it was restircted (being not familiar with the case), only on that attitude that obvious restrictions of democratic rights must be taken as a blessing by the objects of these restrictions.

[DogOnPorch]

It is the ridiculous nature of my hypothetical scenario that is the point: It is ridiculous to think that a Canadian father would do that to his child. However, one did. And now we blame the child?

Canadian? Do you think a piece of paper makes one a Canadian? In my opinion, there are fewer and fewer Canadians every day.

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Fine. Change planes in Dallas and you're a Texan.

---Hank Hill: King Of The Hill

[Mr.Canada]

Just stopped at a convenience store on the way to work. There's a big notice, can't buy sigarettes for anybody under 19. And of course, can't buy a drink while under 21.

But can get a gun, fight in a combat, and be tried as an adult for that, while still under 16.

These conservative folks can be such a ridiculous people. And the scariest thing is that they don't even notice.

And of course, we haven't yet explored this whole notion of "taking arms against foreign liberators as a war crime". That concept deserves a long hard look at as well. E.g. applying it to other cases one'd have to brand the resistance in WWII as a war crime organization. But I already said earlier, there's probably not a single truth, principle or moral that hasn't been stretch to the extent that doesn't have any meaning anymore.

Why didn't the liberal folks change that then if it so ridiculous?

They've been in power as well ya know.

[AngusThermopyle]

I can very well imagine myself stranded if my freedom of movement were restricted, in any country.

Actually her freedom of movement is not restricted in Canada, she just can't leave the country. If she is a Canadian then being in Canada should not be considered a hardship.

Thats really no big deal unless she really really wants to meet with some of her dads old chums. Her entire tone is PLOM (poor little old me), everything she writes is very self serving and designed to illicit sympathy, deserved or not.

Canadian? Do you think a piece of paper makes one a Canadian? In my opinion, there are fewer and fewer Canadians every day.

Thats a very good point.

Edited October 18, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[kengs333]

Canadian? Do you think a piece of paper makes one a Canadian? In my opinion, there are fewer and fewer Canadians every day.

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Fine. Change planes in Dallas and you're a Texan.

---Hank Hill: King Of The Hill

Agreed.

[Peter F]

Canadian? Do you think a piece of paper makes one a Canadian? In my opinion, there are fewer and fewer Canadians every day.

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Fine. Change planes in Dallas and you're a Texan.

---Hank Hill: King Of The Hill

but a piece of paper does make one a Canadian. 100% Canadian.

[DogOnPorch]

Only because politicians much like yourself said so.

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If we are not our brother's keeper, at least let us not be his executioner.

---Marlon Brando

[Peter F]

Only because politicians much like yourself said so.

Now yer gettin' it

[betsy]

Just stopped at a convenience store on the way to work. There's a big notice, can't buy sigarettes for anybody under 19. And of course, can't buy a drink while under 21.

But can get a gun, fight in a combat, and be tried as an adult for that, while still under 16.

Do you mean anyone under 16 can legally get a gun?

[betsy]

Yes. And me shooting the kid dead would have different results how?

Uhm....he's dead and you're not?

[Peter F]

Uhm....he's dead and you're not?

Ah. A worthy cause. I should live so that others may die.

[betsy]

Ah. A worthy cause. I should live so that others may die.

Depends on how much you value yourself.

Personally, I would think that at least with you being alive, you could spread much more of your positive and compassionate nature to others. Just think of all other lives you'll touch...the sufferings you'd ease.

Although bleeding hearts are highly valued by terrorists in their quest for victory, I'm sure that other areas that has nothing to do with massacre-ing innocents would also embrace you warmly. Alive, you have much more to offer.

True that we have this clash of values....but from my point of view, you are the lesser evil.

[Army Guy]

Yes. And me shooting the kid dead would have different results how?

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but that's not what your nation sent you over there to do. Soldiers are doing more over there than just providing the Taliban with moving targets...and while I applaud your bravado, I think you underestimate you will to survive.

So while you live to fight another day, perhaps save many of your comrades lives in doing so, maybe even some innocent civilians as well....hopefully you can spot the kids handler and put a hole in his forehead as well, you see the Taliban don't trust their own bombers, they always have someone in the crowd with detonation device to ensure they blow up their target, or have second thoughts...Ya nice guys all the way around...

[myata]

To that, one can ask one simple question: how many innocent civilians were dying there before and after we came in? And consequently, do we have anything to do with it?

Good intentions (even if they are genuinly good) just aren't enough, and very often, as everybody supposed to know, pave road to hell.

[Peter F]

Incidents in 2008 wherein Afghan civilians were killed by ISAF forces because they might have been suicide bombers.

Source:ISAF website

ISAF troops repeat warning measures to stop driver

KABUL, Afghanistan – An ISAF unit on a security patrol near Kandahar Airfield took force escalation

measures when a truck approached their patrol Jan. 31.

In an effort to keep the truck from getting closer, clear and measured warning signals were issued by

ISAF troops.

The driver failed to heed the repeated warnings to stop, including their deployment of flares. A shot

aimed at the ground was fired, but the truck continued towards the patrol. ISAF troops then fired a

second shot at the truck’s engine block that stopped the vehicle.

The site was secured and the driver, injured by the shot, was transported to an ISAF medical facility.

The driver later died of wounds.

ISAF press release

ISAF convoy fires warning shot to halt driver

KABUL, Afghanistan – An ISAF unit conducting a convoy in Farah Province took force escalation measures

when a civilian car approached their vehicle today.

ISAF troops gave the driver clear and measured warning signals, to include a warning shot fired in the

air, to keep the car at a safe distance.

The driver failed to heed the repeated warnings to stop. Finally, a warning shot aimed at the ground

was fired.

ISAF troops continued on and were later informed by Afghan National Police that their warning shot had

ricochet and injured the car’s driver and killed the passenger

ISAF press release

ISAF troops repeat warning measures to stop vehicle

KABUL, Afghanistan – An ISAF unit travelling near Kandahar Airfield took force escalation measures April 2, to protect itself from a fast-moving vehicle which failed to heed warning signs to stop.

In an effort to keep the vehicle from getting closer, clear and measured warning signals were issued by ISAF troops.

After failing to comply with repeated warnings to stop, ISAF fired one warning shot. As a result, one civilian was killed and three were injured.

ISAF press release

ISAF escalation of force incident, 4 civilians dead and three others wounded

KABUL, Afghanistan — ISAF soldiers opened fire on a vehicle that failed to stop at a check point earlier today killing four civilian occupants and wounding three others. Two further occupants were unharmed.

The incident occurred in the Sangin district of Helmand Province. The vehicle approached the check point and was directed to stop but it drove on. ISAF soldiers fired warning shots in a safe direction away from the vehicle but were eventually forced to fire at it when it refused to stop, fearing an insurgent attack.

ISAF press release

ISAF escalation of force incident, two civilians dead and one other wounded

KABUL, Afghanistan - ISAF soldiers opened fire on a vehicle being driven in a threatening manner and ignoring warnings, killing two child occupants and wounding one adult on July 27 at approximately 7:30 p.m.

The incident occurred in Kandahar Province. ISAF was conducting a security patrol when they were approached by a vehicle. The vehicle was directed to keep its distance but it did not comply. ISAF soldiers gave hand, arm and audio signals as well as flashing light signals to stop. When the vehicle was 10 metres away and still approaching rapidly, the ISAF soldiers, fearing an attack, fired on it.

ISAF press release

KABUL, Afghanistan - ISAF forces opened fire on an Afghan man who approached their patrol in the

vicinity of an ISAF base the morning of August 12.

The incident occurred in Helmand Province. ISAF was conducting a patrol when they were approached by a

vehicle. The vehicle was directed to keep its distance but it did not comply. ISAF soldiers gave hand,

arm and audio signals as well as flashing light signals to stop. When the vehicle was 10 metres away

and still approaching rapidly, the ISAF soldiers, fearing an attack, fired on it.

The male driver was given immediate medical treatment at the scene by the patrol and than taken to a

nearby base for further treatment. Despite the efforts of medical personnel, the man later died from

his wounds.

ISAF press release

ISAF escalation of force incident in Kunduz province killed three civilians

KABUL, Afghanistan - ISAF forces and ANSF opened fire on a vehicle that failed to stop at a check point

killing three civilian occupants, two children and one woman, and wounding two others August 28.

The incident occurred in the Kunduz district of Kunduz Province. Two vehicles approached a check point

run by ISAF forces and ANSF and were directed to stop but drove on. ISAF soldiers fired warning shots

in a safe direction away from the vehicles but were eventually forced to fire at the first vehicle when

it refused to stop, fearing an insurgent attack.

ISAF press release

ISAF shoots civilian who ran toward patrol, failed to stop

KABUL, Afghanistan - ISAF soldiers followed all escalation of force procedures when an Afghan man ran

toward their ground patrol in Sangin district, Helmand, September 4.

Following a warning shot, the man continued to run toward the patrol at which time the ISAF patrol

perceived him as a possible suicide bomber and shot him, wounding the man. After safely determining the

man was not a threat, the ISAF patrol evacuated him to Camp Bastion for medical care.

ISAF press release

Escalation of Force in Kandahar province

Kabul, Afghanistan - At approximately 8.30p.m. 18 September an ISAF convoy was approached, head on, by

a jingle truck in the vicinity of Kandahar City.

The vehicle failed to respond to warning signals, of flashing lights and vehicle horn, and failed to

stop. Following approved escalation of force procedures, one warning shot was fired, the vehicle still

failed to stop. A further two shots were fired directly at the vehicle, killing one civilian.

ISAF press release

ISAF reluctantly kills civilian

KABUL, Afghanistan — An ISAF patrol reluctantly shot and killed a civilian who failed to yield to

warnings to stop Sept. 20 in Sangin district, Helmand.

The incident began when a civilian approached an ISAF foot patrol. The patrol gave verbal warnings

asking for the civilian to stop. When the civilian failed to stop, the patrol fired two warning shots.

The civilian still failed to stop. Fearing a suicide bomber, the patrol targeted the civilian and fired

one round wounding the civilian. Even with immediate first aid, the civilian later died from that

wound.

ISAF press release

ISAF shoots civilian who failed to stop when warned

KABUL, Afghanistan - ISAF shot a civilian who approached too close to a patrol and failed to stop when

directed in Sangin district, Helmand, September 29. The individual subsequently died of their wounds.

When the patrol noticed a man approaching, soldiers signalled to warn him to stop as he drew closer.

When he failed to stop and continued to approach, a soldier issued a verbal warning then fired two

shots further warning him to back away. He failed to react to either and, fearing a suicide bomber, the

soldier then fired one aimed shot that killed the man.

ISAF press release

Edited October 20, 2008 by Peter F

[Peter F]

Incidents in 2008 where suicide bombers killed ISAF forces or civilians in the presence of ISAF forces

Three ISAF soldiers, one ISAF interpreter and three Afghan civilians killed by suicide attack in Gereshk

KABUL, Afghanistan – On Monday, 17 March 2008 at approximately 9:35 a.m. a Civil-Military Co-operation

(CIMIC) convoy providing assistance to local authorities in the town of Gereshk in Helmand Province was

hit by a suicide improvised explosive device that detonated near the ISAF vehicles.

Three ISAF soldiers, one ISAF interpreter and three Afghan civilians were killed by the blast. Four

ISAF soldiers and approximately six Afghan civilians were wounded. At this time, the status of all the

wounded civilians is not known, but the soldiers’ injuries are not considered life-threatening.

ISAF press release

2 ISAF soldiers die, 4 wounded in Nangarhar province explosion

KABUL, Afghanistan – Two ISAF soldiers were killed and four were wounded today when their patrol was struck by a suicide vehicle-borne improvised explosive device (SVBIED) in Nangarhar province.

ISAF press release

Three ISAF soldiers died of wounds, one ISAF soldier wounded by suicide attack in southern Afghanistan

KABUL, Afghanistan– Four ISAF soldiers were initially wounded in an insurgent suicide attack in southern Afghanistan, June 8.

The injured soldiers were evacuated to an ISAF base in the area to receive medical care where three soldiers later died of wounds.

ISAF press release

ISAF soldier, four civilians dead following IED strike

KABUL, Afghanistan - One ISAF soldier and four civilians have died from wounds sustained following a vehicle-borne IED strike in Kabul August 11.

In addition, two ISAF soldiers and eight civilians were wounded in this suicide attack that targeted an ISAF convoy.

ISAF press release

Afghan interpreter killed and Afghan child seriously wounded by a suicide bomb in Kandahar province

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan interpreter was killed today by a suicide bomb attack on a joint ANSF and ISAF security patrol in Panjwayi District August 18.

One Afghan child was seriously injured and an ISAF soldier was also wounded in the attack, which took place near the outskirts of Bazaar-e-Panjwayi.

ISAF press release

[Peter F]

I don't mean to burst your bubble, but that's not what your nation sent you over there to do. Soldiers are doing more over there than just providing the Taliban with moving targets...and while I applaud your bravado, I think you underestimate you will to survive.

So while you live to fight another day, perhaps save many of your comrades lives in doing so, maybe even some innocent civilians as well....hopefully you can spot the kids handler and put a hole in his forehead as well, you see the Taliban don't trust their own bombers, they always have someone in the crowd with detonation device to ensure they blow up their target, or have second thoughts...Ya nice guys all the way around...

Betsy's question was: What would you do if 10 year old afghani is charging towards me wrapped in explosives.

It was disingenious because it was designed to get one, only one respons. The 10 year old is guilty and will die no matter what the hypothetical 'i' does. So in Betsy's world, do I shoot the kid and live? or do I not shoot the kid and die? either way the kids toast because he will blow up whatever I decide.

It was a bullshit question.

Burst my bubbles all you wish. The fact is Canada did not send the Armed Forces to Afghanistan to kill civilians. That is to be avoided if at all possible. Perhaps I do underestimate my will to survive...we will probably never know wether I do or not. But logically speaking, to my mind, if I were soldier in afghanistan, and given a far more realistic situation than that provided by Betsy, If I cannot identify a potential target as a civilian, yet that target can possibly be a threat; Should I shoot now or wait for the situation to clarify at the risk of my own safety?

I like to think I would take the risk and wait rather than shoot first and issue apologies later.

Back to the issue at hand:

People, no matter thier age, who carry arms in combat zones tend to attract the fire of others, no matter thier age, who also carry arms in combat zones. That is the nature of a combat zone. So 10 year olds, or 15 year olds carrying weapons, and most certainly if fireing those weapons, are very likely to be shot.

An unpleasant situation in regards to child-soldiers but understandable nevertheless.

However, once the child soldier is subdued, or surrenders or by some other means comes into the hands of the opposing forces, then that child-soldier should be treated with great compassion and leniency and not as a terrorist or heinous criminal.

[White Doors]

So you feel Canadian Forces are over there just killing civilians?

They are up to no good at all?

Evil little bastards, those Canadian soldiers, in your blighted world view, aren't they?

Christ. If the world was ordered around being zero tolerance for death then we might as well all stop doing everything now. If the only measure if is no one is allowed to die, then nothing can be done. nothing, anywhere.

wait, people will die if nothing is done too. So nothing is not allowed either.

See how mush of a BS position yours is now?

nah, I doubt it - but others do.

[Peter F]

So you feel Canadian Forces are over there just killing civilians?

They are up to no good at all?

Evil little bastards, those Canadian soldiers, in your blighted world view, aren't they?

Christ. If the world was ordered around being zero tolerance for death then we might as well all stop doing everything now. If the only measure if is no one is allowed to die, then nothing can be done. nothing, anywhere.

wait, people will die if nothing is done too. So nothing is not allowed either.

See how mush of a BS position yours is now?

nah, I doubt it - but others do.

I realize you think its perfectly acceptable that all others should be sacrificed for your own good.

Not-so-respectfully: I disagree.

[White Doors]

I realize you think its perfectly acceptable that all others should be sacrificed for your own good.

Not-so-respectfully: I disagree.

All others? Please.

just because your line of reasoning, isn't reasonable - don't play all high and mighty with me.

You are human just like anyone else.

Human deaths happen. It is how they happen that are important, something that seems too complicated or bothersome for you to care about. That's what happens when you present a simplistic argument. Don't blame me, blame the argument you advanced.

[Peter F]

All others? Please.

just because your line of reasoning, isn't reasonable - don't play all high and mighty with me.

You are human just like anyone else.

Human deaths happen. It is how they happen that are important, something that seems too complicated or bothersome for you to care about. That's what happens when you present a simplistic argument. Don't blame me, blame the argument you advanced.

I don't think my line of reasoning is unreasonable. Following my line of reasoning, I would not have been the cause of any of the incidents listed in post #94 of this thread. The downside of my line of reasoning is that I would definately have been involved in the incidents listed in post #95.

My line of reasoning, no matter how disagreable to you, is something. Whereas, on the other hand, you have yet to produce any line of reasoning. So I'm one up on you.