The Apology Pt II

[AngusThermopyle]

Since no one else has restarted the thread yet and it was a good discussion, here we go again.

I'll kick it off by saying that I think it was a good action, even if many regard it as symbolic. I also believe that compensation for those who were abused is warranted.

The only problem I have with it is the potential for abuse, and abuse of this event will happen, thats a given, human nature being what it is. The potential for fraudulent claims and exagerrated claims is huge and already there are rumblings of "not enough" In my opinion this cheapens the whole act and is hardly what one would consider as respectfull to those who were abused. For example, the unrealistic numbers that continue to be bandied about. If one has a memory longer than that of the average fruit fly one will realise that many of the numbers commonly tossed about just do not match the reality of what is known for sure.

If this moment is used as a "jumping off point" for the advancement of Native self responsibility and reliance then it will have been worth ten times its actual cost. However if it is merely used opportunistically in order to leverage more concesions and advantages, then it merely becomes cheap sordid and trashy.

Those are the kinds of behaviour that, in my opinion. will cheapen this sober and solemn moment.

Okay folks, now take it away.

[capricorn]

I'll kick it off by saying that I think it was a good action, even if many regard it as symbolic. I also believe that compensation for those who were abused is warranted.

Harper did a great job in delivering a heartfelt apology. Giving credit to Layton for his contribution to the process was something I did not expect. Good on Harper. It was refreshing to see all the political parties on the same page for once. Chief Fontaine's address was also memorable. It was a day of high emotion and it taught a lot to Canadians who were unaware of the existence of residential schools and the despicable government policy from which they flowed.

The only problem I have with it is the potential for abuse, and abuse of this event will happen, thats a given, human nature being what it is.

Yes, Native Canadians are not immune from having unscrupulous individuals in their midst. Yet, those fraudulent payments will be a mere drop in the bucket after all the claims of abuse are paid. What the heck. It's only taxpayers' money. :angry:

I heard someone on Rex Murphy's Cross country check-up on Sunday say that the large payments made to survivors have resulted in some of them engaging in "destructive behaviour" and there have been cases of suicide. This is very sad but not surprising. Some of them probably never had any money at any time in their life and to suddenly receive such a large amount well, I suppose life as they knew it was turned upside down. Surely, the government must be able to give some sort of counseling to these recipients in regard to financial aspects. Then again I suppose it would look like the feds are meddling again. These are situations where you just can't win.

Time to turn the page and get on with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. But from what I read in the original and accidentally ? deleted original thread, some are not ready to move forward.

[Keepitsimple]

Whether you like Harper and the Conservatives or not, they have made major headway in areas that others have feared to tread:

1) The Apology

2) Putting First Nations under the protection of Canadian Human Rights

3) Making the bands accountable to the Auditor General

This board has seen much critique of whether they were right to cancel the Kelowna Accord but just like "fixing healthcare for a generation", the Accord simply threw more money - with no measurable accounting for it - at the problem....same old, same old. Many hundreds of millions are now being "targeted" at real solutions - many of the reserves have had their water systems fixed or upgraded for example.

Doing the right thing.

[charter.rights]

Whether you like Harper and the Conservatives or not, they have made major headway in areas that others have feared to tread:

1) The Apology

2) Putting First Nations under the protection of Canadian Human Rights

3) Making the bands accountable to the Auditor General

This board has seen much critique of whether they were right to cancel the Kelowna Accord but just like "fixing healthcare for a generation", the Accord simply threw more money - with no measurable accounting for it - at the problem....same old, same old. Many hundreds of millions are now being "targeted" at real solutions - many of the reserves have had their water systems fixed or upgraded for example.

Doing the right thing.

1) The Apology was forced, under a settlement agreement. Harper didn't create it or invent it.

2)First Nations don't need "Canadian" human rights to be applied. The purpose of the move was to give non-native women access to their property on reserve when the marriage breaks up. The merely extends Canadian constitutional rights to the reserve, where they really have no jurisdiction.

3. The bands are already accountable to the Auditor General. In fact according to the AG they are being over scrutinized. The paper work that INAC requires gets screwed up in Ottawawhere no one reads it or accounts for it.

4. Harper killed the Kelowna Accord which was agreed to democratically by the federal government and the premiers. This represents another lie the federal government is engaged in.

5. Harper refused to sign the UN Declaration on Aboriginal Rights. He claims that he is creating a made in Canada solution, but....nothing....He is really afraid the the UNDAR will make people realize just how much land has been stolen.

6. The genocide is still going on in the form of foster children stolen by Children's Aides. The number one reason is for poverty, which according to the UN definition constitutes genocide.

[CANADIEN]

Whether you like Harper and the Conservatives or not, they have made major headway in areas that others have feared to tread:

1) The Apology

2) Putting First Nations under the protection of Canadian Human Rights

3) Making the bands accountable to the Auditor General

This board has seen much critique of whether they were right to cancel the Kelowna Accord but just like "fixing healthcare for a generation", the Accord simply threw more money - with no measurable accounting for it - at the problem....same old, same old. Many hundreds of millions are now being "targeted" at real solutions - many of the reserves have had their water systems fixed or upgraded for example.

Doing the right thing.

The Kelowna Accord actually measure to strenghten accountability by First Nation leaders, as well as clear targets in education (22000 more FN university graduates and 14800 more post-secondary graduates), health (reduction of 20% in child mortality, youth suicide and child diabetes), employment (reduction of unemployment by 30%), and other sectors, all over 5 years. That the Conservatives have discarted it for a crisis management approach (water gets contaminated, we come to the rescue) is nothing to impress me.

[CANADIEN]

Whether you like Harper and the Conservatives or not, they have made major headway in areas that others have feared to tread:

1) The Apology

2) Putting First Nations under the protection of Canadian Human Rights

3) Making the bands accountable to the Auditor General

This board has seen much critique of whether they were right to cancel the Kelowna Accord but just like "fixing healthcare for a generation", the Accord simply threw more money - with no measurable accounting for it - at the problem....same old, same old. Many hundreds of millions are now being "targeted" at real solutions - many of the reserves have had their water systems fixed or upgraded for example.

Doing the right thing.

In the case of expending human rights protection to First Nations, it should be noted that the Assembly of First Nations wanted them to be expended to reservations. However, it, along with the Canadian Bar Association, the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and the Native Women's Association of Canada, opposed the legislation tabled by the Harper Government in 2006 on various ground:

- lack of consultation with First Nations (same old same old... "we need you to take responsibility, so we'll tell you how to do things");

- not enough time (6 months, when the Human Rights Commission estimated that at least 18 months would be needed) and resources given for implementing on-reserve human rights mechanisms

- no recognition of the necessary balance between human rights and collective rights (such as right to self-government)

It should also be noted that the Congress of Aboriginal People (which mostly represent off-reserve Aboriginal Canadians) was at the same time urging the Government to pass its proposed legislation.

Finally, it should be noted that the Harper Government withdrew its proposed legislation two months ago. Guess human rights for our FN is less important than admiting a bill needs to be changed.

Edited June 17, 2008 by CANADIEN

[AngusThermopyle]

So far it would appear from this thread alone that some are more interested in this apology as a source of political ammunition than as an act that can generate some good. The previous poster for instance appears to care little for the apology and merely focuses on the sitting government in a negative way, even though they are doing more for natives than any other government has to date.

This is exactly the sort of behaviour I was alluding to in the opening post. Those who would take advantage of the situation to further their own agenda or goals at the expense of this event. One has to wonder at the cynicism of such people, that they will sieze upon any moment for their own advantage.

[g_bambino]

I'll kick it off by saying that I think it was a good action, even if many regard it as symbolic. I also believe that compensation for those who were abused is warranted.

The only problem I have with it is the potential for abuse, and abuse of this event will happen, thats a given, human nature being what it is. The potential for fraudulent claims and exagerrated claims is huge and already there are rumblings of "not enough" In my opinion this cheapens the whole act and is hardly what one would consider as respectfull to those who were abused. For example, the unrealistic numbers that continue to be bandied about. If one has a memory longer than that of the average fruit fly one will realise that many of the numbers commonly tossed about just do not match the reality of what is known for sure.

If this moment is used as a "jumping off point" for the advancement of Native self responsibility and reliance then it will have been worth ten times its actual cost. However if it is merely used opportunistically in order to leverage more concesions and advantages, then it merely becomes cheap sordid and trashy.

Those are the kinds of behaviour that, in my opinion. will cheapen this sober and solemn moment.

I'd say the apology's meaningless wording cheapened the solemnity from the outset; that so many people bought it is even more depressing. It may have been masterful political theatre, but, if the words were to be taken seriously and for their literal meaning, then Harper would have taken the blame for residential schools (and all the associated abuses) off the shoulders of his unrelated predecessors, and put it squarely on his. I can't fathom why someone would apologise, and thus take responsibility, for something he never did, and I doubt that was Harper's true intent. In an almost direct parallel, Australia's PM, Kevin Rudd, made to aboriginals there his apology for essentially the same past events as took place in Canada. He, however, had to come out and make it explicitly clear that the act was purely symbolic; in order to dispel any ideas that it would open the doors for litigation. What real meaning and true emotion can a symbolic admission of guilt possibly have? At this point, why bother with pointless showmanship, and not just get right to the task of making accountable those who actually did do wrong and compensating those who were actually wronged?

[sharkman]

Well if all we are going to do is sliing mud at politicians, the Liberals suck! I'm sure if the Liberals had been in power and done the apologizing, some of the same posters would be all happy inside.

There is nothing wrong with trying to right wrongs that occurred many years ago and have never been addressed. My concern, as others have mentioned, is that this feeds an entitlement attitude among the natives rather than giving them a fresh start. Only they can decide which way they will go on this.

[M.Dancer]

6. The genocide is still going on in the form of foster children stolen by Children's Aides. The number one reason is for poverty, which according to the UN definition constitutes genocide.

What a load of manure. Children are removed from parents for one reason only. The parents are a danger to the children. How many more children need freeze to death or get beaten silly by drunk parents? Children's aid also removes children from white parents too....I suppose in the view of the professional victims those parents should be seeking financial compensation.

Poverty, by and large, is a self inflicted condition.

[Topaz]

What a load of manure. Children are removed from parents for one reason only. The parents are a danger to the children. How many more children need freeze to death or get beaten silly by drunk parents? Children's aid also removes children from white parents too....I suppose in the view of the professional victims those parents should be seeking financial compensation.

Poverty, by and large, is a self inflicted condition.

Prehaps Dancer, when the First Nation people get to talk to the committees the government is going to have to hear about the abuses these people have incur, then maybe you and people who think like you will slowly realize what kind of living hell these people have lived at the hand of the non-natives.

[sharkman]

Prehaps Dancer, when the First Nation people get to talk to the committees the government is going to have to hear about the abuses these people have incur, then maybe you and people who think like you will slowly realize what kind of living hell these people have lived at the hand of the non-natives.

Sorry Dancer I should probably let you field this one. Topaz, whether natives suffered at the hands of the system in place to manage them has nothing at all to do with native children being removed from the danger of their own homes. This is a separate issue and is faced by children of abusers of all nationalities. I've seen a little of how bad life can be on the reservation when I worked for the government one summer, and it is quite possible that native children can be in harm's way there.

Edited June 17, 2008 by sharkman

[g_bambino]

[Delete post; misread words being replied to; subsequent opinions covered by others above.]

Edited June 17, 2008 by g_bambino

[Army Guy]

5. Harper refused to sign the UN Declaration on Aboriginal Rights. He claims that he is creating a made in Canada solution, but....nothing....He is really afraid the the UNDAR will make people realize just how much land has been stolen.

How much are all these land claims worth, last i heard is well over 500 Bil, more than the current national debt, and building everyday, do you actually think that the Government of Canada, regardless of who is in power will pay that sum? and do you think the Canadian tyax payers can afford it ?

[fellowtraveller]

Yes, Native Canadians are not immune from having unscrupulous individuals in their midst

True, but the real tragedy is having leadership that is clearly committed to changing nothing 0f substance.

My observation - from close range on occasion- is that neither Indian Affairs or any group headed by phil Fontaine wants to change anything that jeopardizes jobs or the massive and ever growing funding adminstered by DIAND.

The Apology will, unfortunately, be more lip service and I anticipate nothing of substance changing at all.

My belief is that our national shame wll not even begin to be addressed until three things happen: first, a charismatic and committed leader emerges nationally to actually lead First Nations people. Ypu will know when he or she has arrived, as mainstream Canada will not like the message brought by that person. Second, When the federal government actually cedes control and forgoes the paternalistic approach which has failed us all for so long Third, when both sides target the #1 and critically urgent issue facing native people right now: the health care crisis in First Nations people.

[AngusThermopyle]

The number one reason is for poverty, which according to the UN definition constitutes genocide.

That being the case it merely serves to illustrate why anything declared by the U.N. should be flushed down the toilet without consideration. Whats next? will they declare a lack of manners to be genocide? They are so irrelevant as to be no more than a very bad joke.

A good method for the eradication of poverty in Canada is called a job. If you need more skills then aquire them. There are many programs and systems of grants in place already to do exactly this.

Or is the contention that people who do not wish to work or better themselves should be entitled to a better life anyway? Personally I disagree. If someone is not willing to do what it takes to improve their lot in life then they deserve exactly what they get.

[Fortunata]

If someone is not willing to do what it takes to improve their lot in life then they deserve exactly what they get.

Some people don't know how, never being taught because their parents/communities were never taught. It's just never so black and white (as aren't most things).

[bush_cheney2004]

Some people don't know how, never being taught because their parents/communities were never taught. It's just never so black and white (as aren't most things).

Perhaps, but the results sure are.

[Oleg Bach]

Perhaps, but the results sure are.

Natives that did not take well to the capitivity that is the modern zoo we live in slowly die. One must remember that "Indians" are intergenerational prisoners of war, a war they lost. Until the idea that some unadaptable prisoners are infact prisoners there will be no final peace or resolution to the suffering of natives...they are captives...and some just like animals die and do not thrive in a zoo.

[Fortunata]

Perhaps, but the results sure are.

Solutions aren't.

[Oleg Bach]

Solutions aren't.

You can say sorry all you want..my dad had the mind of an 1800s Russian Christian Orthodox type and he could not quite grasp the Canadian concept of "sorry" - He said if they were truely sorry they would have not have offended....The whites that rule Canada are not sorry for becoming rich and privledged by committing internal displacement of the native populace..that would be like saying I am sorry for winning the lottery - I would say that Harper should have said "we are shamed or embarrassed" - certainly if they rich white guys were sorry they would do something about it other than setting up a prison camp called a reservation.

[Leafless]

The whites that rule Canada are not sorry for becoming rich and privledged by committing internal displacement of the native populace..that would be like saying I am sorry for winning the lottery - I would say that Harper should have said "we are shamed or embarrassed" - certainly if they rich white guys were sorry they would do something about it other than setting up a prison camp called a reservation.

The rich have not much to do with reservations in Canada, but rather the influx of White settlers does.

Reservations . A natural result of land cessions by the Indians to the British Government and, later, to the Dominion was the establishment of reservations for the natives. This was necessary not only in order to provide them with homes and with land for cultivation, but to avoid disputes in regard to boundaries and to bring them more easily under control of the Government by confining them to given limits. This policy, was followed under both French and English control. It may be attributed primarily to the increase of the white population and the consequent necessity of confining the aboriginal population to narrower limits.

http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger...onsinCanada.htm

[Leafless]

How much are all these land claims worth, last i heard is well over 500 Bil, more than the current national debt, and building everyday, do you actually think that the Government of Canada, regardless of who is in power will pay that sum? and do you think the Canadian tyax payers can afford it ?

The Canadian government does not recognize historic land claims made between the Crown and the natives.

The land rights of native peoples are largely undefined, but they have been described as "usufructuary," referring to a Roman law right to use land owned by another; in this case it is the native right to use lands technically owned by the Crown. Native rights to land as defined by the Indian Act are communal in nature, belonging to the group rather than the individual member, and cannot be bargained away except by the group to the Crown in right of Canada (see INDIAN RESERVE).

Native people are subject to the general law of the land, together with other Canadians, unless there is some aboriginal, treaty or other provision affording special protection. If a law conflicts with native lifestyle or culture, and there is no special protection, the courts will apply that law to natives.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/ind...ams=A1SEC824971

Edited June 17, 2008 by Leafless

[CANADIEN]

The previous poster for instance appears to care little for the apology and merely focuses on the sitting government in a negative way, even though they are doing more for natives than any other government has to date.

Appears indeed. I don't view the apology as ammunitions for everything.

And you and anyone else whowants to compare past and current governments are welcome to do it, but it sidetracks the real issue: is what the current government doing what it needs to do. In case of the apology, the answer is a definite yes.

In the case of the Kelowna, it's no: stop-gap measures like are not as good as the clear targets set up in the Kelowna accords, targets that originated in collaborative work between the involved parties and included acountability measures. This is not about how much money was to be invested - it is about the fact that all the parties said "this is what we need to do and we will do it together:.

In the case of expending human right protection to First Nations, the answer is no again. The lack of real colloboration with First Nations to establish a human right structure has been denounced by both the Human Rights Commission and the Canadian Bar Association, for good reasons. The result did not meet FH's needs and the process repeated the old "we'll make your decisions for you" modus operandi. Once again, it is not about money, it is about involving FN in decisions that affect them primarily.

Because of the apology, I'll give the Harper Government a B-.

[M.Dancer]

, but it sidetracks the real issue: is what the current government doing what it needs to do. In case of the apology, the answer is a definite yes.

In the case of the Kelowna, it's no: stop-gap measures like are not as good as the clear targets set up in the Kelowna accords, targets that originated in collaborative work between the involved parties and included acountability measures. This is not about how much money was to be invested - it is about the fact that all the parties said "this is what we need to do and we will do it together:.

In the case of expending human right protection to First Nations, the answer is no again. The lack of real colloboration with First Nations to establish a human right structure has been denounced by both the Human Rights Commission and the Canadian Bar Association, for good reasons. The result did not meet FH's needs and the process repeated the old "we'll make your decisions for you" modus operandi. Once again, it is not about money, it is about involving FN in decisions that affect them primarily.

Because of the apology, I'll give the Harper Government a B-.

To paraphrase F Douglass, if the Native cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall. - For too long we have engineered a society with no incentive, no responsibility and no hope. If an apology is needed it is for allowing generation after generation to be bone idle. And the fruits of this are blatant. Alcohol and drug abuse, sexual assault and crime....as they say, idle hands are the devils tools.

We should give the Natives the most precious thing we have...full membership and citizenship in Canada, and to cut and abolish the indian act and end these embarrassing theatrics and extortion for continued succour.