General Motors closing truck plant

[madmax]

My current vehicle was built in Mexico. By far, it is the best built car I've ever owned in terms of fit/finish/initial quality. I was very skeptical at first about good it would/could be, but now I'll specifically seek out a Mexican made car next time.

That doesn't mean that good vehicles are not manufactured in Oshawa or any other Auto plant in Canada.

[madmax]

5. Unions

While I believe the working man deserves a decent wage ... I do also believe that making 70k as a line worker is excessive. Problem lies within the fact that why would you give up what you have if you knew that the moment you conceed an inch the same greedy exec's would take not a mile ... but every little thing their greedy fat fingers could grab.

While I am by no means saying all companies are " out of touch with reality " the NA car manufacturers are in dire need of a cultural shake-up

All valid points.

So, the first 4 points address the loss of all the non unionized, low wage, minimum wage manufacturing jobs lost over the last 4years and the

first 4 points combined with the 5th point suggests the loss of the Auto assembly jobs current?

Many of the lower wage manufacturing jobs left in the recent exodus from Ontario, non union and temp/agency supplied operations alike.

Many of high quaility ISO, lean producion, 6 sigma and 5 S operations.

Somehow people think the Chinese or the Mexicans couldn't supply CNC operators, Mechanics, Millwrights, Engineers, Toolmakers, robotics, cheap hydro, and a local market as well as an export market.

That said, anyone who has worked on a line and I am closer to the , Toyota plants, knows that it is no picknick. Regardless... they make closer to $80,000 and above. Plus plus plus

I do like your last point.

I have watched union and non union employees and salaried staff offer/forced concessions and the company reap the benefits, only to use the extra profits to relocate.

Many plant managers know the viability of their operations, (either they are or they are not viable), and realize that they will be closing down because of decisions made outside of Canada, often unrelated to the profit/loss statement.

[Topaz]

So GM and the CAW have a fight on and I hope these workers don't blow it so that GM won't manufacture anything in Ontario. I say both sides are going to lose, GM, or any company going to Mexico won't have the quality and no one will buy . The 2600 will lose their jobs , maybe their homes, the community may suffer, people will be force to move out of province and I also think its another way to break the unions in North America and soon the average person will be lucky to earn $10.00 hrly and u can't own a home on that! The middle-class will slowly disappear and it'll be the rich and the servants.

[bush_cheney2004]

So GM and the CAW have a fight on and I hope these workers don't blow it so that GM won't manufacture anything in Ontario. I say both sides are going to lose, GM, or any company going to Mexico won't have the quality and no one will buy . The 2600 will lose their jobs , maybe their homes, the community may suffer, people will be force to move out of province and I also think its another way to break the unions in North America and soon the average person will be lucky to earn $10.00 hrly and u can't own a home on that! The middle-class will slowly disappear and it'll be the rich and the servants.

So what?

This is a most bizarre discussion....what is the history of GM's Oshawa plant?

1) Did Ontario have a large, native and capitalized automotive design, supplier, and manufacturing base for light trucks before GM/Ford/Chrysler/Toyota/Honda came along?

2) If not, where did those jobs come from?

3) How did Ontarians manage to own homes before?

4) If the Oshawa plant closes in 9/2009, would GM have violated there recent union contract?

5) Is this really about a measley 2600 jobs in a manufacturing sector that has been shrinking labor for years?

6) Extra credit: why does "union brotherhood for workers" stop at the border?

[Wild Bill]

So what?

This is a most bizarre discussion....what is the history of GM's Oshawa plant?

4) If the Oshawa plant closes in 9/2009, would GM have violated there recent union contract?

6) Extra credit: why does "union brotherhood for workers" stop at the border?

Actually, it would appear that GM HAS violated its contract! At least in spirit but perhaps in actuality. You see, they just signed their contract only a couple of weeks ago. No mention was made that the entire contract was moot since the plant was being closed.

As for union brotherhood being cross-border, that's also a good topic for discussion. While I am far from a union supporter myself my father was a steelworker for most of his working life. I vividly remember how they were a branch of the American Steelworkers Union for generations until they broke away to be independent. The AutoWorkers did the same around the same time.

You see, the problem was that the union executives were solely American based and thought it good strategy to use their Canadian "brothers" as test cases, sending them out on strike with extravagant demands to see how much they could push for settlements at home. As you can imagine this was a perpetual hardship on Canadian "brothers" and eventually they grew tired of it and decided on independence.

I always viewed the idea of union brotherhood as a total myth anyway. Union leaders are just another form of politician. I still laugh when I think of how the local steelworkers union hall in my town has been blacklisted by the Federation of Musicians Union since the 1960's, for hiring non-union bands and paying them under scale!

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, it would appear that GM HAS violated its contract! At least in spirit but perhaps in actuality. You see, they just signed their contract only a couple of weeks ago. No mention was made that the entire contract was moot since the plant was being closed.

Bad faith...maybe, but not illegal. From a practical viewpoint, Oshawa's products were toast anyway, and a new lightweight truck platform is years away. I don't blame the CAW for pitching a fit, but sooner or later they all bite the dust this way. It's not like they are going to volunteer to be retreaded in other employment.

I always viewed the idea of union brotherhood as a total myth anyway. Union leaders are just another form of politician. I still laugh when I think of how the local steelworkers union hall in my town has been blacklisted by the Federation of Musicians Union since the 1960's, for hiring non-union bands and paying them under scale!

And you are totally right.

[Drea]

6) Extra credit: why does "union brotherhood for workers" stop at the border?

It doesn't.

The Steelworkers are working with CAW and other unions across the world to form one big huge formidable union.

[bush_cheney2004]

It doesn't.

The Steelworkers are working with CAW and other unions across the world to form one big huge formidable union.

Good..that means the CAW will congratulate their union brothers in Mexico when all their jobs are gone.

[madmax]

So GM and the CAW have a fight on and I hope these workers don't blow it so that GM won't manufacture anything in Ontario.

Or what... GM will leave? Or GM will continue to obtain "training Monies" and leave? Doesn't matter which manufacturer, you can't just toss money at them and expect them to stay. Anymore then people can make concessions and expect them to stay. They should fight, and continue to highlight what is happening across the Province. The Lower paid employees in other sectors, and in support sectors have not been able to mount a voice. It is going to take some well paid auto workers to highlight the obvious. It would have been nice had they shown such concern when all the other non unionized plants started leaving, or any plant closure. But as with most people, they don't do something until it affects them.

I say both sides are going to lose, GM, or any company going to Mexico won't have the quality and no one will buy .

I disagree with you on every count. GM will win if they leave. Mexico will have the quality. And people who bought GM cars will continue to do so. There is only one group of losers and this will be the GM workers and their suppliers.

The 2600 will lose their jobs ,

Probably close to 10,000 to 14000 reciprocally. But 2,600 immediate.

maybe their homes, the community may suffer, people will be force to move out of province

that has been a trend for 2 years. Moving out of the Province is encouraged. It is good that there is a strong resource sector out west.

and I also think its another way to break the unions in North America and soon the average person will be lucky to earn $10.00 hrly and u can't own a home on that! The middle-class will slowly disappear and it'll be the rich and the servants.

If this was simply about union busting, then other non union facilities wouldn't be leading the exodus.

Low end, service sector and distribution is where these GM workers will find themselves. Working fulltime, on a permanent basis for a temp agency.

It should be a real shock for them, and many people face this regularly. Autoworkers need to care as much about others as themselves, but for right now, they don't have the luxury.

They will need to leave the Province.

[bush_cheney2004]

...It should be a real shock for them, and many people face this regularly. Autoworkers need to care as much about others as themselves, but for right now, they don't have the luxury.

They will need to leave the Province.

You preach the truth...what makes these autoworkers on either side of the border so damn special?

They can suck it up like the rest of us.

[madmax]

Good..that means the CAW will congratulate their union brothers in Mexico when all their jobs are gone.

Like this....

AAM reaches agreements with unions in UK and Mexico as UAW strike continues

18th April 2008

American Axle & Manufacturing (AAM) announced on 11th April that it had reached agreements with the unions representing its production workers in England, Scotland (at the Albion Automotive subsidiary) and Mexico.

"All of AAM's hourly associates at AAM de Mexico and our wholly-owned subsidiary Albion Automotive in the United Kingdom have union representation,"

None of these arguments are going to change the economic foundation that Canada used to provide, and prevent the uprooting of Companies and Plants Like GM OSHAWA to other locations.

These things don't happen overnight, and GM was not forthcoming with regards to the closure of the facility in the near future.

[Topaz]

My current vehicle was built in Mexico. By far, it is the best built car I've ever owned in terms of fit/finish/initial quality. I was very skeptical at first about good it would/could be, but now I'll specifically seek out a Mexican made car next time.

Really? What make and model?

[Topaz]

You preach the truth...what makes these autoworkers on either side of the border so damn special?

They can suck it up like the rest of us.

What makes Oshawa plant so dam special is the award they got for the best quality made vehicle in NORTH AMERICA! What award can u say youve gotten in your job??

[bush_cheney2004]

What makes Oshawa plant so dam special is the award they got for the best quality made vehicle in NORTH AMERICA! What award can u say youve gotten in your job??

Well, I guess somebody has to make the best quality dinosaur in North America.

Do you mean they were making crap before the award?

[Topaz]

Mexico is like a Third world country and there's rich and poor and the more aren't educated. I know of a US company down there the plants in the US and Canada make 150 units per day..... in Mexico now there 30! Do you guys really think that you will get as good quality and lower prices for your autos from there? I don't. I don't think the prices will go down and the idea of the unions driving up the prices will be seen as not true.

[madmax]

Really? What make and model?

And serial number

[bush_cheney2004]

Mexico is like a Third world country and there's rich and poor and the more aren't educated. I know of a US company down there the plants in the US and Canada make 150 units per day..... in Mexico now there 30! Do you guys really think that you will get as good quality and lower prices for your autos from there? I don't. I don't think the prices will go down and the idea of the unions driving up the prices will be seen as not true.

This is nonsense...my own plant moved some production to Mexico in 1997 and realized higher quality and lower costs. Labor is a commodity, and there is nothing indispensible about the Canadian variety.

Just how did the auotomotive sector survive without the CAW?

Bye bye union!

[Shady]

I feel bad about the GM workers in Oshawa. However, if they're building trucks that consumers aren't buying anymore, there's not really much that can be done.

And just think. Canada is that much closer to meeting it's Kyoto emission goals!

[madmax]

I feel bad about the GM workers in Oshawa.

I feel bad for them and all the other 200,000 people that have lost their manufacturing jobs since 2006.

However, if they're building trucks that consumers aren't buying anymore, there's not really much that can be done.

How so?

And just think. Canada is that much closer to meeting it's Kyoto emission goals!

and No.

Edited June 9, 2008 by madmax

[Renegade]

So GM and the CAW have a fight on and I hope these workers don't blow it so that GM won't manufacture anything in Ontario. I say both sides are going to lose, GM, or any company going to Mexico won't have the quality and no one will buy . The 2600 will lose their jobs , maybe their homes, the community may suffer, people will be force to move out of province and I also think its another way to break the unions in North America and soon the average person will be lucky to earn $10.00 hrly and u can't own a home on that! The middle-class will slowly disappear and it'll be the rich and the servants.

Since you and the union seem to be so convinced that the right thing to do is to continue to manufacture pick-up trucks in Oshawa, why don't they put there money where their mouth is. The union can pool their resources and buy the plant from GM and build all the trucks they (but no one else) want.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Share holders and profit rule. Simple economics.

I would expect this company to maintain a profit or shut down.

Seems they are doing what they deem best.

Would you run at a loss until you declare yourself financially insolvent?

Borg

Exactly, who the hell do these workers think they are?! Right now, the important thing is for GM, a fictional entity with more rights than real person survives this tough period. These lazy workers don't deserve the stratospheric wages while the poor shareholders gets screwed. Long live the parasites! Workers should realize that they are mere tools and should be treated as such. They have no right to demand better wages and job security. How dare they! It's not the workers who produces objects to satisfy our natural needs, it's the corporations.

Amazing how people defend corporations on this forum. You are all capitalists yet you are more than happy to criticize unions and workers when they demand better wages?! I guess market forces prevail only when its to the advantage of the capitalist.

By the way, if you think assembly line workers have it made, you should probably read Ben Hamper’s Rivethead. Assembly line workers are expected to work 57 of every 60 seconds. Try it for a few minutes to see how fun it is.

The American Working Class

In her book, On the Line at Subaru-Isuzu (1995), sociologist Laurie Graham tells us about her work routine in one of these gulags. Below, I have skipped a lot of the steps, because I just want to give readers a sense of the work. Remember as you read it that the line is relentlessly moving while she is working:

1. Go to the car and take the token card off a wire on the front of the car.

2. Pick up the 2 VIN (vehicle identification number) plates from the embosser and check the plates to see that they have the same number.

3. Insert the token card into the token card reader.

4. While waiting for the computer output, break down the key kit for the car by pulling the 3 lock cylinders and the lock code from the bag.

5. Copy the vehicle control number and color number onto the appearance check sheet....

8. Lift the hood and put the hood jig in place so it will hold the hood open while installing the hood stay....

22. Rivet the large VIN plate to the left-hand center pillar.

23. Begin with step one on the next car.

This work is so intense that it is not possible to steal a break much less learn your workmate’s job so that you can double-up, then rest while she does both jobs. Within six months of the plant’s start-up, a majority of the workers had to wear wrist splints for incipient carpal tunnel. Necks and backs ache from bodies being twisted into unnatural positions for eight hours a day. Supervisors recommend exercises and suggest that workers who cannot deal with the pain are sissies.

10 to 1 you can't find a credible source to back up that error....

Link

in the U.S., new workers can be hired for as little as $14 an hour

Ignorance is bliss

Having said that, this is a good thing long term. That plant won't be shut for long, it will be retooled and something with more market desirability will replace it.

Don't hold your breath.

Remember two things... They just built a HUGE paint shop there, AND that truck plant was rated #1 in NA.

Reach for the stars...

Edited June 10, 2008 by lost&outofcontrol

[blueblood]

Market forces also dictate that a tim hortons cashier earns 20 bucks an hour in Alberta without Unions or collective bargaining.

Corporations also give the workers jobs in the first place, they both need each other, a corporation worth it's salt will not screw over workers when they can find jobs elsewhere, and at the same time won't bankrupt itself appeasing it's workers. A profitable corporation means that it's employees are guaranteed to get paid. 10 bucks an hour is better than 0 bucks an hour and living in the poor house.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Market forces also dictate that a tim hortons cashier earns 20 bucks an hour in Alberta without Unions or collective bargaining.

Please compare the cost of living to see how much more of that $20/hr you get to keep in the end.

Corporations also give the workers jobs in the first place, they both need each other, a corporation worth it's salt will not screw over workers when they can find jobs elsewhere, and at the same time won't bankrupt itself appeasing it's workers.

Who are these mythical corporations with godly powers? I would like to meet with one if at all possible, I have a few grievances. I picture General Motors as some old coot à-la Howard Hughes. I bet Miss Wall-Mart is the female equivalent of Mr. Burns.

Having power over us mere mortal beings, the abilities of corporations as non beings (fictional entities) are stunning. Bow down to the new Gods!

A profitable corporation means that it's employees are guaranteed to get paid. 10 bucks an hour is better than 0 bucks an hour and living in the poor house.

I guess eating a shit sandwich is better than not eating at all then; it is eating after all.

[Wild Bill]

Exactly, who the hell do these workers think they are?! Right now, the important thing is for GM, a fictional entity with more rights than real person survives this tough period. These lazy workers don't deserve the stratospheric wages while the poor shareholders gets screwed. Long live the parasites! Workers should realize that they are mere tools and should be treated as such. They have no right to demand better wages and job security. How dare they! It's not the workers who produces objects to satisfy our natural needs, it's the corporations.

Amazing how people defend corporations on this forum. You are all capitalists yet you are more than happy to criticize unions and workers when they demand better wages?! I guess market forces prevail only when its to the advantage of the capitalist.

By the way, if you think assembly line workers have it made, you should probably read Ben Hamper’s Rivethead. Assembly line workers are expected to work 57 of every 60 seconds. Try it for a few minutes to see how fun it is.

The American Working Class

Link

Ignorance is bliss

Remember two things... They just built a HUGE paint shop there, AND that truck plant was rated #1 in NA.

Reach for the stars...

That's all very nice. I hope you feel better.

Now, I still won't buy a truck! I can't afford the gas. Those autoworkers make more money than I ever have. I'm not jealous, I'm just saying it's a bit much to expect me to go in the poorhouse by buying one of their products to support them.

If they offer a product that fits MY needs then I may re-consider.

[lost&outofcontrol]

That's all very nice. I hope you feel better.

Now, I still won't buy a truck! I can't afford the gas. Those autoworkers make more money than I ever have. I'm not jealous, I'm just saying it's a bit much to expect me to go in the poorhouse by buying one of their products to support them.

You equate the products conceived to create artificial wants in an effort to justify the parasitic existence of these Godly corporations with the fulfillment of actually (human) needs.

If they offer a product that fits MY needs then I may re-consider.

How about working out in a corporative manner with the actual assembly line workers a plan to build a vehicle that people actually need? Of course you can always wait for the General Motors God to build one and hope that it is the one actually needed...

Edited June 10, 2008 by lost&outofcontrol