General Motors closing truck plant

[M.Dancer]

This never happens in the private sector.

GM is in the private sector...

There's plenty of blame to go areound regarding the GM Truck plant. The consumer for one....who as a fickle entity decides one day that 4 door pickups are hot then the next wants a fuel efficiant sedan....jobs sometimes evapourate when markets go bust....

This never happens in the public sector.

But given the Unions behavior in Oshawa, if I was a GM exec, if there was a plant to re-open, Oshawa would be far from the first choice...

[bush_cheney2004]

That goes across the board of all makes at a time when the Big Three were the Big Three and the Japanese Cars were.. problematic in a different way. My roots are in Autosales during this period. But my heart beats with Mopar, even though I have none in my driveway.

OK...I'm a Blue Oval guy. I agree that it was crap all around, my lowpoint being the Mustang II and Fairmont/Granada. The only thing good about them was "Charlie's Angels". My old man sold Caddys from '72 - '76...and it was then that I learned about market niches, case in point being the Eldorado Convertible....see, technology was never a problem for GM or Ford, but it only applied to certain markets. The public may say they want another Peoples Car, but they don't vote that way with their wallets, especially American wallets. Cars are more than just transportation.

GM is still GM and it is going to take alot more time before they come around.

True, but closing the Oshawa plant is part of the process. We are losing the St. Paul MN Ford plant (Ranger) too...has been there for a very long time. Change hurts, but it beats the alternative.

Yes, any Ideas what GM has been doing...... ? And yes, tooling changes are not trivial, nor insurmountable when there is a plan enacted. It is not like the money isn't there. The quality, the production, and the profit can all be achieved in the same fashion as Honda and Toyota retool and offer newer/different model lines.

That is why we have a ballot box. I didn't vote for the Liberals last time over this very issue of corporate handouts under the guise of technological grants.

Sure, but you also know that Honda, Toyota, and Nissan ramped up light truck production in N.A. to compete for profits in that segment, the sales leader (for all vehicles) being Ford's F-150 for 31 years (soon to change no doubt). So the visionary thing is not so well deserved. Toyota's hybrid synergy drive is just now selling in quantities that would justify continuing production after ten years.

As a side note, a Canadian firm is trying to federalize a glamorized golf cart for sale as a viable alternative. OK in the US, but Canada's feds dragged their feet.

[madmax]

But given the Unions behavior in Oshawa, if I was a GM exec, if there was a plant to re-open, Oshawa would be far from the first choice...

Why?

[M.Dancer]

Why?

Why would I want to employ nihilistic militant unionist workers?

Gee.....

[lost&outofcontrol]

GM is in the private sector...

I meant unionized - my mistake.

There's plenty of blame to go areound regarding the GM Truck plant. The consumer for one....who as a fickle entity decides one day that 4 door pickups are hot then the next wants a fuel efficiant sedan....jobs sometimes evapourate when markets go bust....

You are basically blaming capitalism in general. Of course blame has to go "around". We are all part of the production and consumption process that is capitalism and yet let market forces act as our Gods? It's like we walk on our heads.

Edited June 11, 2008 by lost&outofcontrol

[M.Dancer]

I meant unionized - my mistake.

You are basically blaming capitalism in general. Of course blame has to go "around". We are all part of the production and consumption process that is capitalism and yet let market forces act as our Gods? It's like we walk on our heads.

Market forces are gods....those who can predict the market direction are high priests.

I was being in part facetious regarding blaming the consumer....the consumer is blameless...the fault lays with management for thinking that the wave of big cars would continue and for unions for making intransiance and unaffordability part of the automotive culture

[lost&outofcontrol]

Market forces are gods....those who can predict the market direction are high priests.

To be honest I was hoping people would come to the opposite conclusion. Capitalism is the new religion then.

Why do we have science again?

[blueblood]

This never happens in the private sector.

And you don't see anything wrong with that? Did you jump over the part about corporations divine rights and powers to rule over us as fictional entities. Does GM create jobs? If it does I would love to talk to him/her.

When GM first opened its plant and people wanted GM vehicles, they created lots of jobs.

There's nothing wrong with that when the option is starvation. In Ireland, they used that philosophy and unemployment became so low, that the corporations were forced to pay higher wages in order to keep the skilled workers.

[madmax]

Why would I want to employ nihilistic militant unionist workers?

I am surprised how long it has taken them to wake up, after ignoring the 200,000 people they are about to join.

Regardless, GM has mislead the employees, the government, taken taxpayers monies, bargained in bad faith just week ago. They should have been negotiating the closure agreement, not an agreement for concessions based upon the intent to continue production. GM didn't make this decision in a vacuum.

IF GM does make an about face in production in Oshawa, it will be because of the efforts of the employees and nothing less. The same efforts that made it the award winning facility that it is.

GM also made this announcement after the comments made by Flaherty. I wouldn't be surprised to speculate they are sticking it to him.

Regardless, there is something about Auto/Truck production in Oshawa.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/06/03/113402.html

GM's Oshawa #1 is Most Productive Assembly Plant in North America

Most improved manufacturer for last five years; improves 22 percent

General Motors will close the award-winning Oshawa truck plant.

Harbour Consulting rated Oshawa #2 as the most efficient auto plant in North America in 2007. Oshawa #1 is the second most efficient in North America.

[lost&outofcontrol]

When GM first opened its plant and people wanted GM vehicles, they created lots of jobs.

There's nothing wrong with that when the option is starvation. In Ireland, they used that philosophy and unemployment became so low, that the corporations were forced to pay higher wages in order to keep the skilled workers.

Due to completely external causes, the worker gets higher compensation to accept alienating work. At no point does the increase in compensation remove this alienation. I never become happier doing what I do just because I get paid more to do it. I merely compensate for this alienation by purchasing more of my alienated product.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Regardless, there is something about Auto/Truck production in Oshawa.

Gee, it makes me wonder how poor Oshawa productivity and quality was before (relative to other plants).

[madmax]

Gee, it makes me wonder how poor Oshawa productivity and quality was before (relative to other plants).

What we do know is that their record of productivity and quality has put the GM Oshawa facilities as the BEST in North America, against all Manufacturers, right up until the day of the announced Closure.

and in the top 10 among 2 continents.

J.D. Power and Associates revealed yesterday in its annual study of initial quality that the Oshawa plant posted the fewest problems among full-size pickup operations in its assembly of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra models.

Furthermore, J.D. Power noted the GM Oshawa plant finished in the top 10 operations for quality among 71 assembly facilities on the two continents.

".D. Power, a major U.S.-based consumer research firm, would not disclose where the Oshawa plant ranked in the top 10 or the number of problems per 100 vehicles. But it is well below the industry average, the firm confirmed."

Not to be lost in this is the fact that.

said three other Canadian plants finished in the top 10 for quality.

They are Honda's Alliston plant, manufacturer of the Civic compact; Toyota's Cambridge's operation, producer of the Lexus RX luxury multi-activity vehicle; and GM's Oshawa car factory, assembler of Pontiac Grand Prix.

[bush_cheney2004]

What we do know is that their record of productivity and quality has put the GM Oshawa facilities as the BEST in North America, against all Manufacturers, right up until the day of the announced Closure.

Quite irrelevant when the high quality product being made in Oshawa is obsolete. The cost of retooling Oshawa combined with recurring CAW labor made it a candidate for closure. It has happened to many other plants in North America.....so again I ask..what makes Oshawa so special?

[M.Dancer]

I am surprised how long it has taken them to wake up, after ignoring the 200,000 people they are about to join.

Regardless, GM has mislead the employees, the government, taken taxpayers monies, bargained in bad faith just week ago. They should have been negotiating the closure agreement, not an agreement for concessions based upon the intent to continue production. GM didn't make this decision in a vacuum.

IF GM does make an about face in production in Oshawa, it will be because of the efforts of the employees and nothing less. The same efforts that made it the award winning facility that it is.

GM also made this announcement after the comments made by Flaherty. I wouldn't be surprised to speculate they are sticking it to him.

Regardless, there is something about Auto/Truck production in Oshawa.

You can't blame GM for being a canny negotiator....if there is any blame it should be the union negotiaters....someone should stamp a big red n00b on their foreheads....now GM should and will be asked to repay the loans as per the agreement. I see no reason why the owner of a plant should even consider negotiating a closure. It's their plant, they can close it anytime they need to.

[M.Dancer]

Due to completely external causes, the worker gets higher compensation to accept alienating work. At no point does the increase in compensation remove this alienation. I never become happier doing what I do just because I get paid more to do it. I merely compensate for this alienation by purchasing more of my alienated product.

Alienating work ??? whisky tango foxtrot?

[M.Dancer]

so again I ask..what makes Oshawa so special?

There's a GM plant there, and a hockey team called the Generals....it's also on the way to Bancroft....mineral capital of North America

[madmax]

You can't blame GM for being a canny negotiator

You are correct in your assessment of how a large corp such as GM behaves.

So you trust GM to give back the money

I see no reason why the owner of a plant should even consider negotiating a closure. It's their plant, they can close it anytime they need to.

And they will.

A closure agreement is there to ensure that the people of necessity remain with the operations until the lights go out.

It is smart business.

Even under the most extreme circumstances I have seen court appointed monitors create adhoc closure agreements for both union and non union facilities that do not have one in place, and it is critical to retain key employees and have a timely, orderly, winddown that meets the needs of the customers.

I do see many companies that do not retain employees for the lack of a closure agreement causing a run on labour and a panic from customers.

Regardless, I have seen the ugliest side of some corporate decisions, that deserve a different thread, when it comes to plant closures.

The Oshawa announcement is standard fare on the whole.

[madmax]

so again I ask..what makes Oshawa so special?

why should they fight for their jobs or why won't Oshawa look like Flint.

[madmax]

There's a GM plant there, and a hockey team called the Generals....it's also on the way to Bancroft....mineral capital of North America

And if you lived there, one of the cheekiest people in Canada, and on this forum.

Edited June 11, 2008 by madmax

[M.Dancer]

You are correct in your assessment of how a large corp such as GM behaves.

So you trust GM to give back the money

And they will.

I trust signed contracts and contract law.

[M.Dancer]

You are correct in your assessment of how a large corp such as GM behaves.

So you trust GM to give back the money

And they will.

A closure agreement is there to ensure that the people of necessity remain with the operations until the lights go out.

What? like endentured servants? If they layoff who they don't need and offer employment to who they do, what negotiation could improve on that?

I swear to dog that the Right to Work legislation can't come soon enough....

[lost&outofcontrol]

Alienating work ??? whisky tango foxtrot?

Paying me more to do something I hate won't make me like it any better.

How's that?

Edited June 12, 2008 by lost&outofcontrol

[peter_puck]

Reality - Big oil controls the prices through artificial supply and demand problems ... 1. not building new refineries and controling available consumption

Rising oil prices are a GLOBAL problem. The lack of new refineries is an AMERICAN (or WESTERN) probem.

investing hundreds of millions of dollars in propagana against alternative sources of fuel and influencing auto makers to keep making 100% fuel vehicles in NA 3. dumping hundreds of millions more into lobbiest that influence government decisions

Again, the shortage of oil is a GLOBAL problem. Big oil has no influence on China and India.

I really wish they would stop buying these pathetic shills to fight the Global warming science, but that does not really have an effect on oil prices today.

I hate to break it to you, but right now there is no alternative fuel that can compete with fossil fuel on price.

Reality - Scrap organic waste can produce methenol and is abundance around the world ... anything that is organic can be turned into methenol .... 1. The ocean is a limitless farm that could grown organic material and be harvested 2. A corn field produces more waste than food (stocks & husks etc.) 3. human waste can be turned into methenol. Problem is Science is fighting against paid shills of the oil company to quiet their voices and projects ... money talks

Human waste is turned into fuel now. Landfills generate electricity. These are noble endeavours, but they cannot make up for the amount of energy needed for are current vehicle fleet. SOMEDAY they may be able to generate economically viable fuel from cellusose, but not today.

Ethanol is old technology .... waste matter to methanol is the bridge to get us to solar/electric (limitless) .... Big oil squashes these options by influencing the auto makers and government to keep oil around. If you think all the big oil are looking to improve society with new found energy sources you are living in a dream world.

Huge amounts of venture capital are going into alternative energy. People speak of alt-energy stocks in terms of a bubble. If they can produce enzymes to break down celulose (SP, again) in a cost effective manner then yay us. Until then, we can't plan our energy future around it.

The real fact is we are energy pigs. It is much easier to consume less than to try to make energy with expensive technology.

[peter_puck]

The bottom line is that GM is not a charity. How are they supposed to keep the plant open when nobody wants to buy the vehicles ?

[bush_cheney2004]

I hate to break it to you, but right now there is no alternative fuel that can compete with fossil fuel on price.

Right on....energy density doesn't lie. Fill'er up!