General Motors closing truck plant

[M.Dancer]

Paying me more to do something I hate won't make me like it any better.

How's that?

I would be more inclined to pay someone less who hates their job...someone who likes their job is worth more, and paying someone more as you correctly point out, won't make them like their job or make them a better employee.

Edited June 12, 2008 by M.Dancer

[lost&outofcontrol]

I would be more inclined to pay someone less who hates their job...someone who likes their job is worth more, and paying someone more as you correctly point out, won't make them like their job or make them a better employee.

Then you agree that even in times of prosperity workers remain alienated.

[Bryan]

Then you agree that even in times of prosperity workers remain alienated.

Only the ones that probably shouldn't have been hired in the first place.

If they don't like their jobs they should find ones they do like. Life is way too short, and the options available are far too vast, to waste any appreciable length of time doing what you hate.

[madmax]

I trust signed contracts and contract law.

I do not trust anyone. I sign contracts and have lawyers. Regardless, I recall personally one of GM suppliers who turned their backs on all their contracts and skipped town with a pile of cash, and GM reps from the US came up here and made things happen. Many of these difficult proceedings were done on a handshake and clear understanding before put to the bean counters and lawyers.

GM understands the need for a proper closure agreement. Particularly with the state of affairs with many of their suppliers who are "contractually" obligated not to let their production lines go down. They have seen plant meltdowns with announced closures and no agreements, and they have seen meltdowns with industry folding up as little as 2 weeks in many cases to 48 hours in extreme cases.

If you trust signed contracts, I can provide lists upon lists of Salaried Staff still seeking their wages, vacation pay, severance pay, reimbursements for benefits. I can show you many many many many many many suppliers, big and small shafted as large profitable/unprofitable companies relocate and don't give a rats ass about who they stuck it to.

If you have a magic wand, that knows how to collect these monies owed, I know a government that could use your help as well. Nothing like a company buggering off and owing the city too.

The law and lawyers only go so far.

Even a closure agreement can be ignored, and their is little that can be done about it. But those companies that are sincere about there closure and want a harmonious closure are wise to do so.

This is not a new practice for GM or some unheard of endeavour.

[TOhasCLASS]

Rising oil prices are a GLOBAL problem. The lack of new refineries is an AMERICAN (or WESTERN) probem.

Again, the shortage of oil is a GLOBAL problem. Big oil has no influence on China and India.

I really wish they would stop buying these pathetic shills to fight the Global warming science, but that does not really have an effect on oil prices today.

I hate to break it to you, but right now there is no alternative fuel that can compete with fossil fuel on price.

Human waste is turned into fuel now. Landfills generate electricity. These are noble endeavours, but they cannot make up for the amount of energy needed for are current vehicle fleet. SOMEDAY they may be able to generate economically viable fuel from cellusose, but not today.

Huge amounts of venture capital are going into alternative energy. People speak of alt-energy stocks in terms of a bubble. If they can produce enzymes to break down celulose (SP, again) in a cost effective manner then yay us. Until then, we can't plan our energy future around it.

The real fact is we are energy pigs. It is much easier to consume less than to try to make energy with expensive technology.

You really are not getting the point ... the powers that be "big oil" do everything they can to subvert cheap fuel prices.

1. They fund the badmouthing of cutting edge technology ... which would be available now if people didn't believe the propaganda the spewed 10-20 years ago.

2. In Ontario Canada alone ... big oil has less refineries now than they did in the 70's & 80's when consumption was far less

3. Sure China and India consume more oil now than the world can supply .... however there is enough oil in Canada for NA alone for the next 200 years. Artficial supply and demand. Oil has known for years consumption would increase and they did nothing to adjust (becasue they new prices would rise as well if they kept supply low)

4. So after saying all that GM execs have to be morons or just flipping lazy not to dictate the technology they develop for future transportation (flex fuel, electric, solar etc)

this is where the problem lies for auto makers ... they did not dictate to society which fuel they want their cars to run on (they didn't even have a back-up plan) ... they let big oil dictate the terms of the marketplace

[M.Dancer]

Then you agree that even in times of prosperity workers remain alienated.

I will agree that I don't know what you mean. Alienation? WTF? I know there are skilled workers, unskilled workers, motivtaed workers and unmotivated workers...and all 4 exist in times of prosperity and lean times too. As far as alienated workers go.....???

[Rue]

I think we are over complicating the obvious issue and that is-the products our car plants were designed to build were based on the assumption that bigger was better and if we built the bigger ones, it would be better for our workers financial needs.

It was a short sighted assumption that BOTH GM Management and the worker's union share. They BOTH bought into it because BOTH assumed there would never be the kind of increase in oil prices that would lead to such products becoming obsolete.

Economists have been warning since world war one, that our dependence on oil would lead to such catastrophes. Our businesses and unions have chosen to ignore future forecasting in favour of immediate short term gain.

GM and its unions knew what they were doing was short term. There is no excuse. There was a clear warning during the last oil shortage not to build an industry on gas guzzlers and for a brief moment people bought smaller cars but then the car manufacturers in North America swung back to the big monster vehicles.

Why? Why not? If you basically take a pick up truck and charge another 25,000 for it by closing the back and placing some more seats on it, why not. All it was, was disguised pick up truck sales and people bought it hook line and sinker.

You tell me, why do we need such huge vehicles? Why? Get real. Do any of us need these suv's and four wheel drives and hummers, etc.?

I mean come on. Hwo dumb is it buying a hummer or a jeep when all you do is engage in city driving. Did you really need that suv for your 2 brats or was it just easier to throw them back there with a built in t.v. then have them sit closer to you in a smaller car?

Suv's and these large vehicles were a sign of short sighted management and unions buying into the greed and consumers wasting their affluence on inefficient products.

So now the market does what it does, it corrects itself and what do we do? Well we have a union doing what they do, react and try pretend they can deny the obvious and hold back the inevitable and feed their employees these false promises that they can continue to make such idiot products.

GM Management, well they do what business management does, exploit the moment for all its worth, then move on and if people are expendable so be it. Whether its suv's and big pick ups that end up in junk yards or people on unemployment lines, its part of the disposable equation that goes along with making profit.

Let's be honest. The Japanese have made idiots of us because they cornered the market on small, efficient vehicles and let us blow our brain out on big inefficient poorly designed and built vehicles.

Trying to pretend we can still manufacture dinosaurs and all will be well is as dumb as thinking we can just keep using fossel fuel forever. Its what short sighted, lazy, uninspired fat people do when they don't want to exercise.

We now have to get up off our collective fat asses and lose some weight.

The Indians and Chinese are about to dump on our market cheap disposable cars made of recycled plastic, glass, plastics, metals, textiles and other garbage. People will snap up these $3,500 disposable cars just as they switched from permanent razors to disposable plastic ones. It's what we do.

So the solution is simple. Shut the f..ck up and create a better product. Create vehicles that are smaller and run on hydrogen cells and methane made form recycled organic garbage. Create and design mopeds, motorbikes,

and take these people who are unemployed and not making these new products and put them to work doing what we should have done years ago-building mass transit systems.

Some of them can also become bus drivers and other support workers for the new mass transit system.

More to the point anyone who bought GM products was kidding themselves. GM, Ford, Dodge-Chrysler, come on give me a break. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, left you in their dust years ago. Then it was the South Koreans. Soon it will be the Indians and then God help us all when the Chinese dump into our markets their crappola cars. Please when they come don't suck on your car. They use lead paint.

[Rue]

And one other rant. Why is it we allow the South Koreans and Japanese to dump their products in our country and engage in predatory and monopoly pricing while they do not let us sell our products in their countries?

Its as simple as this-Yoh Mr. Toyota-you want to sell your Corolla in Canada, we get to sell our new small Ford Zit (its a new small red bubble car) in Nippon. None of this one sided trade nonsense.

Someone tell that to the Chinese and Indians too. They seem to be in quite the feeding frenzy and looking at us to feed them and what do we expect?. Uh hello someone look at our trade deficit and how easy its been for China and Japan to just walk right in and take over. I don't blame them. I blame us.

I will buy Canadian if you make me a good product. Otherwise you leave me no choice but to buy a Honda. I am not about to my a crappola car just because you are a Canadian or American company. Last time I looked, Honda employs Canadians too.

Edited June 12, 2008 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

GM Management, well they do what business management does, exploit the moment for all its worth, then move on and if people are expendable so be it. Whether its suv's and big pick ups that end up in junk yards or people on unemployment lines, its part of the disposable equation that goes along with making profit.

Let's be honest. The Japanese have made idiots of us because they cornered the market on small, efficient vehicles and let us blow our brain out on big inefficient poorly designed and built vehicles.

What a load....Toyota, Nissan, and Honda all have ramped up light truck production in North America based on the same assumptions as GM. Take a look at the 2008 Sequoia or Titan. Ever heard of a Ridgeline?

A Hummer H2 shares the same GMT820 truck platform as the Tahoe.

The Ford F150 has been the best selling vehicle in NA for 31 years.

So now GM and Ford are suppose to turn on a dime? OK...close that goddamn Oshawa plant right now.

[madmax]

What a load....Toyota, Nissan, and Honda all have ramped up light truck production in North America based on the same assumptions as GM. Take a look at the 2008 Sequoia or Titan. Ever heard of a Ridgeline?

A Hummer H2 shares the same GMT820 truck platform as the Tahoe.

The Ford F150 has been the best selling vehicle in NA for 31 years.

So now GM and Ford are suppose to turn on a dime? OK...close that goddamn Oshawa plant right now.

Thank You.

[Wild Bill]

The Ford F150 has been the best selling vehicle in NA for 31 years.

So now GM and Ford are suppose to turn on a dime? OK...close that goddamn Oshawa plant right now.

I think the point was that the Japanese CAN turn on a dime! Or at least re-tool in 6 months.

GM, Ford and Chrysler need several years! In effect, by comparison they can't turn on a dinner plate!

[madmax]

I think the point was that the Japanese CAN turn on a dime! Or at least re-tool in 6 months.

GM, Ford and Chrysler need several years! In effect, by comparison they can't turn on a dinner plate!

Take another look at RUEs post. And your point is not there. Not that it is an inaccurate statement, just that the previous post does not allude (At least what I have reread) doesn't apper to allude to your position at all.

You only have to drive to a japanese/korean dealership and see the number of lighttruck/SUVs on the lot.

The rant was setting blame on one manufacturer and its workforce while ignoring the same practice of the Asian Manufacturers.

But as to your statement above, don't forget the last line of Bush-Cheneys post.

OK...close that goddamn Oshawa plant right now.

Which you know is happening

Edited June 12, 2008 by madmax

[bush_cheney2004]

I think the point was that the Japanese CAN turn on a dime! Or at least re-tool in 6 months.

The Japanese can do it more quickly, but not that fast if we are talking about an entire platform. The Tiered supplier base and parts qualification process (PPAP) can't be rushed that fast for large production runs. Japan still uses a 3 year cycle for major model changes.

GM, Ford and Chrysler need several years! In effect, by comparison they can't turn on a dinner plate!

See above.

[peter_puck]

You really are not getting the point ... the powers that be "big oil" do everything they can to subvert cheap fuel prices.

1. They fund the badmouthing of cutting edge technology ... which would be available now if people didn't believe the propaganda the spewed 10-20 years ago.

They can bad mouth it all they want, there is still BILLIONS of dollars going into it. In Ontario there are solar and wind power plants being built. The government has to pay a massive subsidy to make them work. If there were something better there would not be needs for subsidies.

2. In Ontario Canada alone ... big oil has less refineries now than they did in the 70's & 80's when consumption was far less

What effect does a Ontario refinery have on the WORLD price of oil. Maybe we pay higher rates for gas because of that, but it does not explain the huge rise in world oil prices. I could also add that Ontario has a lot fewer hospitals that it used to, but has a higher percentage of elderly patients. I don't know if refineries work the same way, but I think you have to look at their total output, not the number.

this is where the problem lies for auto makers ... they did not dictate to society which fuel they want their cars to run on (they didn't even have a back-up plan) ... they let big oil dictate the terms of the marketplace

Automakers build cars to make a profit. (or in the case of the big three today, try and make a profit). If they made a plugin hybrid, I would buy it. They would make money off of me. The problem is they have not come up the with technolgy to do this with a mass market car yet (although it is likely close).

Automakers don't make a buck from big oil

[Wild Bill]

They can bad mouth it all they want, there is still BILLIONS of dollars going into it. In Ontario there are solar and wind power plants being built. The government has to pay a massive subsidy to make them work. If there were something better there would not be needs for subsidies.

What effect does a Ontario refinery have on the WORLD price of oil. Maybe we pay higher rates for gas because of that, but it does not explain the huge rise in world oil prices. I could also add that Ontario has a lot fewer hospitals that it used to, but has a higher percentage of elderly patients. I don't know if refineries work the same way, but I think you have to look at their total output, not the number.

Automakers build cars to make a profit. (or in the case of the big three today, try and make a profit). If they made a plugin hybrid, I would buy it. They would make money off of me. The problem is they have not come up the with technolgy to do this with a mass market car yet (although it is likely close).

Automakers don't make a buck from big oil

Not meaning to defend the oil companies but it's only fair to point out that part of the reason for the lack of new refineries is that our governments slapped fiercely expensive environmental laws on them that ballooned the cost of such plants!

No one seemed to consider that these actions would eventually make us uncompetitive with countries that have NO extra anti-pollution costs! That's the situation in many areas we find ourselves in today.

I would favour green "tariffs and duties". If a ton of steel costs a Canadian steel mill an extra $20 a ton to be "clean" then a ton from China, Russia or India should face a $20/ton tariff to make a level playing field.

Free Trade is not free if it's not fair! What we often see today is just exploitation of loopholes of our own making.

[TOhasCLASS]

Not meaning to defend the oil companies but it's only fair to point out that part of the reason for the lack of new refineries is that our governments slapped fiercely expensive environmental laws on them that ballooned the cost of such plants!

No one seemed to consider that these actions would eventually make us uncompetitive with countries that have NO extra anti-pollution costs! That's the situation in many areas we find ourselves in today.

I would favour green "tariffs and duties". If a ton of steel costs a Canadian steel mill an extra $20 a ton to be "clean" then a ton from China, Russia or India should face a $20/ton tariff to make a level playing field.

Free Trade is not free if it's not fair! What we often see today is just exploitation of loopholes of our own making.

1. Their are rumours and articles written by many (allthough unproven) that big oil was behind those environmental penalties which intern allowed them much more control over supply and demand while using the excuse that they were at capacity for refining and new refineries were not cost effective. - Take it for what it's worth

2. Globalization is a crock and being in the international business field I have seen many abuses from low cost Chinese manufacturing ... I know of Toys our children play with not made to spec by suppliers in china who substitute cheaper toxic materials for higher quality materials to increase their profit margins ..... the NA companies knowingly ignore if discovered and peddle these items to our children for fear that a recall may damage the brand while they scramble to fix the corrupt practices with Chinese vendors. Fact - Did you know that the government can't go into a retailer and pull products at random and test for lead for instance ..... they are legally only able to do a full investigation if a Toy manufacturer volentarily discloses a recall ... at that point they can legally do an investigation of other products they sell as well .. if they so choose.

It's a disgrace that our government protects the corporation before the consumer ....

The auto industry is ripe with inequalities in trade barriers and our government needs to grow some b*lls ....oh but that would isolate some campaign supporters and funding now wouldn't it

[Rue]

What a load....Toyota, Nissan, and Honda all have ramped up light truck production in North America based on the same assumptions as GM. Take a look at the 2008 Sequoia or Titan. Ever heard of a Ridgeline?

A Hummer H2 shares the same GMT820 truck platform as the Tahoe.

The Ford F150 has been the best selling vehicle in NA for 31 years.

So now GM and Ford are suppose to turn on a dime? OK...close that goddamn Oshawa plant right now.

No its not a load the stats are there for any of us to go and look at, for example;

http://automobiles.honda.com/news/press-re...e=2005080255723

http://www.hondabeat.com/sales_stats.php

http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/s/03062008/31/li...erican.html?p=4

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ory/Technology/

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive...8/03/c6616.html

Honda and Toyota did sell light trucks but the point is were and are in a better position to adjust their product assembly lines and sudden changes in consumer demands making available more hybrid cars, and smaller more fuel efficient vehicles to pick up any business they lost or will lose from truck sales. Theyd idn't put all their eggs in one basket.

More to the point why don't you so check the resale value of a Japanese vehicle compared to a Ford or GM vehicle and look at the average cost to run them and the service reports.

Consumers Reports and many other web-sites have these stats.

You want to go into denial and pretend GM and Ford are doing nothing different then Honda or Toyota, try, but it's as stupid as pretending people are going to buy GM trucks if they keep that plant open making them.

How long do you think until the plant in Oakville is closed? You really think the FIT is gonna burn up the market place?

You want to be competitive, you look ahead not behind. This trying to hold on to the past and deny what is in front of your face, golly gee, sounds familiar. But let's save that for the other thread on why George Bush is a great President shall we.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Rue

[Rue]

The Japanese can do it more quickly, but not that fast if we are talking about an entire platform. The Tiered supplier base and parts qualification process (PPAP) can't be rushed that fast for large production runs. Japan still uses a 3 year cycle for major model changes.

See above.

With due respect look at their inventory. You will see a much more diverse inventory of products available for sale today right now. As well and with due respect you are wrong. The 3 year cycle can be adjusted on a 6 month notice and you do not need to take down the entire platform to keep it productive.

You also underestimate the intelligence of the consumer to not be able to understand if they buy a Honda or Toyota or Subaru or Hyundai product they will keep it longer and do less maintenance on it and be serviced better then if they have a GM or Ford or Dodge.

People may not know about car engines but they know which cars last longer and whose transmission cracks and whose break linings wear out faster, and whose car's seems are held together with glue and so are impossible to repair once that glue decomposes.

But please, go buy your FIX.

Lord Love us. Its the Jeep Waggoneer-International Harvester with a new name. Can't wait until they start making those Checkers again. Big and square, like the heads of their designers.

[bush_cheney2004]

Honda and Toyota did sell light trucks but the point is were and are in a better position to adjust their product assembly lines and sudden changes in consumer demands making available more hybrid cars, and smaller more fuel efficient vehicles to pick up any business they lost or will lose from truck sales. Theyd idn't put all their eggs in one basket.

More malarkey and back pedaling....GM's EV-1 predates hybrids by years. The point of highlighting your error was to demonstrate that Japanese manufacturers were chasing the same big light truck profits and sales as GM/Ford/Chrysler...they even built new plants to do so. GM partnered with Toyota in Fremont CA years ago, and also rebadged econboxes from Asia.

More to the point why don't you so check the resale value of a Japanese vehicle compared to a Ford or GM vehicle and look at the average cost to run them and the service reports.

More back pedaling....so much for crowing about the JDPowers reports for Oshawa product quality as rated by consumers, huh?

You want to go into denial and pretend GM and Ford are doing nothing different then Honda or Toyota, try, but it's as stupid as pretending people are going to buy GM trucks if they keep that plant open making them.

I'm dumber after reading that.

How long do you think until the plant in Oakville is closed? You really think the FIT is gonna burn up the market place?

I care not in the least. Just break the union....and establish "Right to Work" laws.

You want to be competitive, you look ahead not behind. This trying to hold on to the past and deny what is in front of your face, golly gee, sounds familiar. But let's save that for the other thread on why George Bush is a great President shall we.

Great or not, he is still the president, no?

[Rue]

Speaking about malarkey and back pedaling just listen to you...

"....GM's EV-1 predates hybrids by years."

So what? It has nothing to do with the issues I raised.

"The point of highlighting your error was to demonstrate that Japanese manufacturers were chasing the same big light truck profits and sales as GM/Ford/Chrysler..."

That was not the issue and point I raised. Once again you do not read-you go off on tangents that suit your ego. More to the point your tangent is nonsensical. Whether the Japanese sold trucks or did not sell trucks is not the issue and never was the issue.

The issue is the Japanese and South Koreans anticipated the small car market and in fact they came about because of it and they are now in the position to be able to fall back on it.

The fact they sold trucks is not and was never the issue being able to modify their products and change as the times change was and is.

You stated;

"GM partnered with Toyota in Fremont CA years ago, and also rebadged econboxes from Asia."

So? What is the point of making such a comment? How does it address the issue I raised. How does it even remotely address the issue I raised? The issue I raised and your brain can't seem to absorb is this and we can talk in small easy to understand words for you-GM can not sell large gaz guzzling vehicles and allowed itself to become overly dependent on them at the expense of all the other sales markets and like any entity that has a specialized diet it either learns to eat something else or it becomes exitinct and no all you did by stating the above is prove that point.

You state:

"More back pedaling....so much for crowing about the JDPowers reports for Oshawa product quality as rated by consumers, huh?"

You are like a rat caught in the chicken house. You wiggle and try squeeze but no Bush I got you by the tail and I think we should swing you a bit now. Your attempt to suggest GM products are quality vehicles is an absolute and utter crock and of course misses the point yet again. We all are well aware how GM cars have constantly failed in design and defect. The manufacturer liability law suits, the recalls, the inferior car parts, its all public knowledge.

In regards to your attempt now to suggest the trucks are quality trucks, that doesn't change what the cars are-in every case inferior to Japanese ones in quality and longevity, and more to the point doesn't address the issue.

Is it hard for that brain of yours to grasp the fact that even if these GM trucks were the quality products you now claim they are and I would concede can make a good argument for in certain lines of trucks does not address the issue of gas consumption and why people won't buy them.

Man you are thick and your trying to get snarky with moi is hilarious but no Bush it doesn't change the issue you continue to try ignore and get people to forget with your gratuitous comments and that is you can build the best truck in the world, but no one is going to buy it now with gas at the price it is.

You stated;

" I'm dumber after reading that."

May I respectfully suggest your being dumber could be caused by many things.

"I care not in the least."

Yes its evident when you are presented with information you have no way to deny you tend to say that a lot.

"Just break the union....and establish "Right to Work" laws."

Is that before or after you set up the prison camps. Maybe you can just put them all in one big camp. Say now imagine that concept-shipping people to camps because of their ancestry or because they are commies and socialists. Sounds familiar.

"Great or not, he is still the president, no?"

Do you mean that putz running GM or are you referring to your namesake in Washington, DC?

From my perspective they are both in denial and trying to preserve antiquated failed administrations and policies.

But from what I gather they are both on their way out this year.

By the way, good luck with selling that hummer.

I can hear you.

And to think you suggest that moi back pedals?

Lol. Maybe Miami CSI will buy it for their show.

[bush_cheney2004]

...So? What is the point of making such a comment? How does it address the issue I raised. How does it even remotely address the issue I raised? The issue I raised and your brain can't seem to absorb is this and we can talk in small easy to understand words for you-GM can not sell large gaz guzzling vehicles and allowed itself to become overly dependent on them at the expense of all the other sales markets and like any entity that has a specialized diet it either learns to eat something else or it becomes exitinct and no all you did by stating the above is prove that point....

You have no point to prove....no amount of insufferable verbosity can safe your pretzel logic. You obviously have no experience in automotive design, manufacturing, sales, or marketing. You live in a national market that is smaller than that of the single state of California. You bemoan the decisions of GM even as other Japanese manufacturers invested heavily in the N.A. light truck market late in the game, hoping to earn very profitable "gas guzzling" market share.

And now that GM has made a decision to shutter plants (not the first time for sure), we are suppose to feel sorry for Oshawa because GM didn't protect it from market obsolescence? Tough bounce.

To anyone on either side of the border who thinks they can do better after local plant closing: put up or shut up....raise the capital, take the risks, and compete with union labor to see if you can do any better.

[Wild Bill]

You have no point to prove....no amount of insufferable verbosity can safe your pretzel logic. You obviously have no experience in automotive design, manufacturing, sales, or marketing. You live in a national market that is smaller than that of the single state of California. You bemoan the decisions of GM even as other Japanese manufacturers invested heavily in the N.A. light truck market late in the game, hoping to earn very profitable "gas guzzling" market share.

And now that GM has made a decision to shutter plants (not the first time for sure), we are suppose to feel sorry for Oshawa because GM didn't protect it from market obsolescence? Tough bounce.

To anyone on either side of the border who thinks they can do better after local plant closing: put up or shut up....raise the capital, take the risks, and compete with union labor to see if you can do any better.

Well, while you guys argue more and more of us have made up our minds.

GM, Ford and Chrysler do not have a product to suit our needs that competes well against the imports. Buying domestic would be a sacrifice, not a benefit.

I frankly don't care if my car is union made or foreign built, as long as the quality is there, the features I want, the gas mileage I can afford , etc. I don't care about protecting the job of a guy who has always made far more than I have anyway.

So I'll buy an import! Except for Chinese. I do have a problem there. I still keep seeing that brave kid standing in front of the tank in Tiamanen Square.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, while you guys argue more and more of us have made up our minds.

GM, Ford and Chrysler do not have a product to suit our needs that competes well against the imports. Buying domestic would be a sacrifice, not a benefit.

But they aren't imports anymore, for the most part. GM, Ford and Chrysler are international corporations.....nostalgic models of the "Big Three" don't apply anymore. Japanese and Korean manufaturers are prospering in North American plants, often without unionized labor.

I frankly don't care if my car is union made or foreign built, as long as the quality is there, the features I want, the gas mileage I can afford , etc. I don't care about protecting the job of a guy who has always made far more than I have anyway.

Fine...other consumers get to make their own choices as well, and did so in Canada for 2007:

The Top 10 Best-selling 'light trucks' in Canada

From January 1 to December 31, 2007

Rank / Model (Last year's position) / Total sales

1- Ford F-Series (1) 73,618

2- Dodge Caravan (2) 55,041

3- Dodge Ram (3) 42,322

4- GMC Sierra (4) 40,606

5- Chevrolet Silverado (5) 40,066

6- Ford Escape (6) 31,643

7- Ford Ranger (10) 23,386

8- Honda CR-V (9) 20,980

9- Pontiac Montana SV6 (8) 19,169

10- Chevrolet Uplander (7) 18,999

Total is about 366,000

The Top 10 Best-selling cars in Canada

From January 1 to December 31, 2007

Honda Civic (70,838)

Mazda3 (48,236)

Toyota Corolla (40,474)

Toyota Yaris (34,424)

Chevrolet Cobalt (32,613)

Toyota Camry (28,218)

Pontiac Pursuit/G6 (25,211)

Ford Focus (24,013)

Honda Accord (22,102)

Nissan Versa (21,940).

Total is about 348,000...less than light truck sales.

Sales data is from DesRosiers.

So I'll buy an import! Except for Chinese. I do have a problem there. I still keep seeing that brave kid standing in front of the tank in Tiamanen Square.

Do you mean imported from the United States?

Edited June 15, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Wild Bill]

Do you mean imported from the United States?

No, I mean by common usage a vehicle not made by the "Big Three". Ford, GM and Chrysler have been producing vehicles in Canada for most of my old life. To a Canadian they are domestics, just as they would be to someone from Missouri.

Actually, more and more of us Canadians are becoming "Missouri"-ized, as in "don't tell me, SHOW ME!"

[madmax]

With due respect look at their inventory. You will see a much more diverse inventory of products available for sale today right now. The 3 year cycle can be adjusted on a 6 month notice and you do not need to take down the entire platform to keep it productive.

Bush Cheney is 100% correct when he speaks of the process and requirements of Tier one suppliers and the timelines for PPAP and implementation. The time frame you suggest can only be achieved when moving from one location to another (IE changing suppliers) but the product remains the same. And even then their can be difficulties. And yes, you would have to "NOT" take down the entire platform as you mention.

You also underestimate the intelligence of the consumer to not be able to understand if they buy a Honda or Toyota or Subaru or Hyundai product they will keep it longer and do less maintenance on it and be serviced better then if they have a GM or Ford or Dodge.

WHoa there little doggie. IF this were so true, the extended warranty packages would not be so popular or expensive. All dealerships operate on the same principle. And quite frankly many dealership owners have interests in at least 2 of the manufacturers listed above.

Having supplied parts to all the above, and knowing the processes involved, I think that there has been an well established marketing plan that has been very effective for the manufacturers you list above.

Clearly you miss the irony of the GM truck plant being "Best in its class".

That would suggest that the Products of the other manufacturers were inferior. However, for myself I find much of this splitting hairs.