General Motors closing truck plant

[madmax]

A really sad outcome. And even more sad is Buzz Hargrove on the radio saying how pissed off his union members were. Toyota continues to expand production in Ontario while GM and Ford workers are being laid off. What's wrong with this picture?

Toyota has lowcost production facilities offshore of Japan. They have production facilities in North America. They face the same market conditions as the other manufacturers. They are none to pleased with the current market conditions in Ontario and they are very concerned. The worker at Toyota makes an excellent wage, like other workers in Auto in North America.

GM particularly is relocating. Plain and simple. Cheap hydro, (Yes China has Coal power plants within Cities), lower costs of supplies and market access.

[madmax]

You think Unions forced the Big Three American automakers to move to Canada? Are you ....nuts?

Here: Which came first, the Canadian Autoworker or the plant?

Automotive plants are in Canada courtesy of the Auto Pact and Free Trade....I don't recall unions at the negotiating table.

Those are excellent points.

I concur.

[madmax]

Nothing!

Unions were responsible for driving most of the steel industry jobs out of the country; they'll eventually do the same to auto industry.

You would almost believe that only union facilities have been closing in Ontario with outlandish statements such as yours.

THe unions have highlighted what non union workers also face. They also highlight issues on behalf of manufacturers who have faced ignorant/apathetic politicians who ignore their concerns in the market. (Toyota, Honda included).

I have an office in a building where there are Toyota employees out of work, most likely not to be called back.

Toyota makes more then just Autos......

That said, many non union plants in all facits of manufacturing have closed without a wimper or press clipping.

Be it wages barely above minimum through to premium wages that would make a family comfortable with one income.

I have no idea the future fate of GM in Oshawa other then what has been announced. But they are getting the press that many places wished to have received before there plant closed down.

The concerns of manufacturers would be simple to resolve if it was only this simplistic opinion.

But it is not that simple, and everyone involved knows this... Which is why we will see more value added closures and the manufacturing based whittled down to under 10% possibly within a few years.

[Michael Hardner]

GM particularly is relocating. Plain and simple. Cheap hydro, (Yes China has Coal power plants within Cities), lower costs of supplies and market access.

We still have tariffs on imported cars, though.

If GM tries to fight those tariffs, then we'll have the peculiar situation where Toyota/Honda are fighting for the Auto Pact and the "domestic" companies aren't.

[Wild Bill]

Before you go knocking the unions where do you think some of the cars are going to be made, the US were there are unions! Todays ecomony is centered on corporations making big bucks and driving away the middle-class ! The new rate for an assembly line workers is now half $12-14 hrly. Can a man support a family on that??NO! This country may see people losing their homes because of the loss of their jobs and it will start a chain reaction and Harper doesn't care!

Ok, just for the sake of argument let's say you're right! Harper is chortling in glee at the thought of all those autoworkers losing their jobs and starving! He now feels his life is complete!

Now, out of curiousity, can you tell us anything within his power he can actually DO about it? Specific things that might work? Things that would get Ford, GM or Chrysler sales back up and their plants running full out?

Preferably things that didn't involve taxing the rest of us into more poverty?

Seriously, I'd like to know!

[capricorn]

I hope McGuinty learned a lesson here. If you fork over millions in taxpayer dollars into manufacturing industries, at least get some type of guarantee of something in return for those investments.

For years, the Premier has talked ebulliently about how the government has leveraged $500-million into $7-billion of investment in the auto industry. It's clearer now than it has ever been that there are two parallel roads here that will never converge. Ontario may influence decisions by the Big Three by writing cheques to cover 10 per cent of their new investments. But this does little to alter their planning around existing assets. GM, Chrysler and Ford remain the big dogs of industrial capitalism. They may be foundering, but no government in a branch-plant jurisdiction is going to tell them what to do.

-snip-

The Premier said later that all he can do is attach job guarantees to new projects. He said that "in an ideal world" he could have made guarantees at all plants a condition of financial support. "But no auto manufacturer was prepared to do that," he told reporters. When it was suggested that the creation of a few hundred new jobs balanced against the loss of thousands of existing jobs seemed like one step forward, two steps back, he replied: "Well, that's the kind of world we live in today. A lot of these shots are called from elsewhere."

The government will now face increased scrutiny of what it has received for its $500-million - how many jobs have been saved or created so far. Economic Development Minister Sandra Pupatello will feel this when she appears again this morning in front of a legislative committee.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Comment/?query=

McGuinty's cash injections into the auto sector have disappeared into a black hole. Governments should not be pouring money into these corporations as it is useless to try to influence the outcome of corporate decisions. If those companies can't stand on their own they and their shareholders should pay the financial penalty, not taxpayers.

[eyeball]

But none of this is neither here nor there with regards to a Auto Manufacturers Plant Locations.

Speaking of locations, what about the issue of simply having a supply of lots that are zoned for industrial uses What will happen once these plants are gone? Where I've live we've seen a real erosion of industrial waterfront land which is kind of important for coastal industries that are dependant on having access to foreshore and upland areas for boats, docks, shipyards, processing plants, parking lots etc.

What was multi-industrial is all turning into condos...of course it doesn't help when the last thing the nouveu local's want to see are boats, docks, shipyards, processing plants, parking lots etc. There's something faintly suicidal about converting to a mono-industrial (tourism) town...especially now that tourists seem to getting as scarce as manufacturing jobs. Hmmm, I wonder if there's a connection?

[Topaz]

I hope McGuinty learned a lesson here. If you fork over millions in taxpayer dollars into manufacturing industries, at least get some type of guarantee of something in return for those investments.

McGuinty's cash injections into the auto sector have disappeared into a black hole. Governments should not be pouring money into these corporations as it is useless to try to influence the outcome of corporate decisions. If those companies can't stand on their own they and their shareholders should pay the financial penalty, not taxpayers.

Not to worry, I hear both governments are going after the money and you can't judge all loans to all companies by GM actions. You'll either suppose the companies or support the workers on EI or welfare, which do you want?

[HisSelf]

Nothing!

Unions were responsible for driving most of the steel industry jobs out of the country; they'll eventually do the same to auto industry. The average pay for an assembly line employee is more than double the average industrial wage in the United States, and almost double the average here in Canada. Today's economy is centered on highly educated knowledge workers; unions exist to tax the worker and are nothing more than one more hand extended on pay day. Do UAW executives collect strike pay while their striking members are freezing on the picket line? I doubt it. Buzz Hargrove will retire on a pension equal to that of a senior GM executive, not bad for a former line worker who probably didn't finish high school.

With respect to the steel industry, there are a number of steel companies that have turned themselves around, thanks largely to the recent resource boom - IPSCO, Algoma, Dofasco for example. Theses companies were so attractive, they all got bought out at a premium. Don't forget that Algoma was a company that was owned and run by its union. If you had bought their stock in 2000, you would have been a happy guy 6 years later. Stelco has not been such a happy story because it was managed by idiots - something many business analysts have been saying for some time.

You are right about unions and the big three, although that's not the whole story. Unions have built a massive and unsustainable featherbed for their employees. However, an equal share of the blame goes to the automakers. The plant in question makes big honking gas-guzzling trucks. Sales for these things are falling like a stone. Toyota was onstream with the Prius two years ahead of the curve while GM just kept producing the same old same old. The big three have not been nimble enought o respond to their customers. The Japanese got their foot in the door by building reliable vehicles when people were joking that Ford stood for "Fix Or Repair Daily" and they have been building on that responsiveness ever since.

[madmax]

It's more like $55 per hour; I don't have a problem with a journeyman tradesman earning that wage,

I can get an Engineer for $300/ Month.

I can have CNC done online, programmed offshore or programmed on shore with the goods produced offshore.

You may not have a problem with $55/hour, but since time began, the goal of any manufacturing facility is to reduce the skills and wages of the skilled trades where ever possible.

I value skilled trades, but like all new technologies, the skilled trades will only be used when their are assemblers and something to assemble.

THis goes for all the bean counters, production planners, purchasers and all managerial, secretarial, salaried staff and inside and outsides sales.

Most get dumped and look for jobs elsewhere.

Skilled trades are necessary, but cost analysis and value added are not in your calculations, just your beliefs of what should be.

Skilled trades are still in demand, but their wages are falling and many contractual Mechanical/Millwright firms are losing contracts with the relocation of each facility.

Form a moving company, and get those millwrights queued up to do the move in Oshawa.

That is good money.

[madmax]

We still have tariffs on imported cars, though.

If GM tries to fight those tariffs, then we'll have the peculiar situation where Toyota/Honda are fighting for the Auto Pact and the "domestic" companies aren't.

Yes, isn't it ironic.

But most of the Auto Pact was watered down with Free Trade and then the victorious challenge from other foreign firms (toyota) rendered the Auto Pact portion of NAFTA irrellavent.

[madmax]

Now, out of curiousity, can you tell us anything within his power he can actually DO about it? Specific things that might work? Things that would get Ford, GM or Chrysler sales back up and their plants running full out?

This is about relocating. Many of the suppliers go through boom and bust scenarios frequently.

There are many things the federal government could do. From very minute to radical.

I will start with the basics.

1) Acknowledge their is a problem.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The problem? What problem? You mean the job losses? The only real problem is the one that prevents an individual from gaining employment. If you lose your job you must find another one. This could involve relocation but it may not. People must support themselves, so they must work.

Some folks will lay blame for the loss of employment on the company or the worker but the reality is market conditions, period. Economic reality must set in at some point. Currently we experiencing a loss of jobs in the manufacturing sector. There is some question as to the ability to compete with foreign companies and nations with our own well paid work force. There are nations that have employment opportunities that reflect a much lower standard of living and that is a reality. The size of the labour force in some of these countries makes competition very difficult. Unless we dispense with the concept of free trade there is little that can be done about it. The loss of free trade would result in far higher prices to consumers, so you can understand that the chances of that happening are indeed slim.

[madmax]

There is some question as to the ability to compete with foreign companies and nations with our own well paid work force.

Quibbling point, is that most companies in Canada involved in Manufacturing are and were foreign owed from the beginning.

Many profitable Canadian owed, or even foreign owed companies are purchased and shut down, with their assests and contracts redistributed around the globe.

It is more then just the labour costs, lower energy costs are important. THe rising dollar can quickly eat up any lowered wages, and the same is true with rising energy costs.

There are nations that have employment opportunities that reflect a much lower standard of living and that is a reality. The size of the labour force in some of these countries makes competition very difficult. Unless we dispense with the concept of free trade there is little that can be done about it. The loss of free trade would result in far higher prices to consumers, so you can understand that the chances of that happening are indeed slim.

Agreed.

Edited June 4, 2008 by madmax

[madmax]

Likely Toyota.

The irony being that when Nissan realized their 8 Cylinder Titan was not panning out they turned to Chrysler.

Nissan to end Titan pickup truck production in U.S.

Thursday 17th April, 03:08 AM JST

TOKYO —

Nissan Motor Co will end the production of the Titan full-size pickup truck in the United States. The decision came along with Nissan’s agreement to step up mutual products supply with its U.S. partner, Chrysler LLC.

Under the deal, Chrysler will provide Nissan with a full-size pickup model made at its Saltillo, Mexico, plant from 2011.

Dominique Thormann, senior vice president of Nissan North America Inc, indicated the pickup will replace the Titan. The new truck will maintain many of the attributes of the Titan but offer a wider variety of body configurations, he said.

The Japanese carmaker has been producing the Titan at its plant in Canton, Mississippi, since 2004. Last year, its sales totaled 66,000 units, down 9% from a year earlier, much lower than the target level of at least 100,000 units for the year.

JCN

[madmax]

Some might call this a U turn by the Federal Conservatives. Some might call this Flaherty covering his butt in his own riding.

This could turn into a positive development. However, I am curious about how firm GMs decision to close really is. It usually takes 1 to 2 years to plan a closure. Often this news is not released to the public, or the people inside the plant designated for closure until it is tooo late.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/05/gm-closure.html

The federal government may be able to use a multimillion-dollar green vehicle fund to entice General Motors to continue manufacturing cars at a plant slated for closing next year, according to the finance minister.

Jim Flaherty suggested Wednesday the Conservative government could put up money from its $250-million automotive innovation fund, meant to assist in the development of environmentally friendly and fuel efficient vehicles, to help keep the Oshawa, Ont., pickup truck factory alive.

[Topaz]

Some might call this a U turn by the Federal Conservatives. Some might call this Flaherty covering his butt in his own riding.

This could turn into a positive development. However, I am curious about how firm GMs decision to close really is. It usually takes 1 to 2 years to plan a closure. Often this news is not released to the public, or the people inside the plant designated for closure until it is tooo late.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/05/gm-closure.html

I think that car isn't due for 3 years and how can u trust GM now? There's probably going to be an election within a year and I think Flaherty changes of returning to Ottawa just got lower.

[blueblood]

I can see were Toyota will surpass the GM, Ford or Chysler because people will just may turn against them and as I said, you want to drive a car made in Mexico or a canadian made Toyota? The new hybrid car GM is coming out with is going to Michigan and I think that one was suppose stay in Canada but not 100% sure.

So Mexicans aren't allowed to have jobs and make a living?

I'd drive the Mexican made GMC truck, chances are they'd be so happy getting the job they would appreciate it a lot more and would work especially hard to make better products so they aren't back in the poor house.

40 pesos an hour is better than 0 pesos an hour

[bush_cheney2004]

So Mexicans aren't allowed to have jobs and make a living?

Apparently not...some Canadians think "Mexicans" can't assemble motor vehicles as well as Canadians. Years ago after the 'Pact" died, it was OK for American autoworker jobs to go to Canada, but not Mexico?

I'd drive the Mexican made GMC truck, chances are they'd be so happy getting the job they would appreciate it a lot more and would work especially hard to make better products so they aren't back in the poor house.

Many parts are alrady made in Mexico.

[blueblood]

Apparently not...some Canadians think "Mexicans" can't assemble motor vehicles as well as Canadians. Years ago after the 'Pact" died, it was OK for American autoworker jobs to go to Canada, but not Mexico?

Many parts are alrady made in Mexico.

And a Cummins motor is made in Brazil, runs like a top I might add.

[Wild Bill]

This is about relocating. Many of the suppliers go through boom and bust scenarios frequently.

There are many things the federal government could do. From very minute to radical.

I will start with the basics.

1) Acknowledge their is a problem.

Well, I think most folks already knew that point!

Kind of a thin response, don't you think? I'm overwhelmed with your specific suggestions!

Actually, when I made that post asking what could Harper do I was really agreeing with the idea of market forces being stronger than government policies. Everybody expects politicians to have some kind of magic wand. They rail at them like scolding a cripple for not riverdancing.

I just thought that if someone was going to make criticisms for wrong actions or lack of action it would be more positive if they threw out some specific alternatives. Then we could all chew on them and decide if they were practical and positive in the real world.

A variation on the idea of how anyone can criticize but few have useful alternatives. Or more simply: "Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way!"

Someone had pushed my "utilitarian button", that's all.

[Bryan]

So Mexicans aren't allowed to have jobs and make a living?

I'd drive the Mexican made GMC truck, chances are they'd be so happy getting the job they would appreciate it a lot more and would work especially hard to make better products so they aren't back in the poor house.

My current vehicle was built in Mexico. By far, it is the best built car I've ever owned in terms of fit/finish/initial quality. I was very skeptical at first about good it would/could be, but now I'll specifically seek out a Mexican made car next time.

[TOhasCLASS]

This whole issue of NA Manufacturing jobs lost can be explained in very simplistic terms with some very complex underlying details.

1. The dysfunctional US/Can education and political systems -

people are trained to be sheep (there is only one way ... the way the book in school says) while the need for a creative progressive independent thinking society with new ideas & new technological development is stymied

2. Corporate Greed, Shareholder Greed & Incompetent Greedy CEO's -

The sole focus for corporate exec's is to make ungodly salaries and bonus' for providing very little leadership and solid decision making (remember these are the same people educated by the dysfunctional system above). They are compensated whether the company is floundering or on top. There is no real incentive to build something for the future or look at improving, re-tooling or forcasting down the road when you'll get paid even if you dog it.

The trickle down is that the middle class worker is the first cut or downsized to pay for the sins of senior management so that the share holders can feel satisfied that they get a return. Nice little piece of creative accounting that doesn't hold up for future financial reporting. If you think that downsizing puts money in the pockets of the exec's to re-tool your wrong ..... How often does corporate culture change (never until exec are tossed with their golden parachute)

3. Globalization

Unfortunately you have emerging markets around the world with many things to offer such as unfair cheap labour, unfair import restictions ( Japan - auto), corrupt governments, abusive working conditions etc. .... so instead of rolling up their sleeves and re-tooling for the future and being a beacon of new development NA exexc's roll over and hit the snooze button and take the easy road and become just like all of these other nations which intern puts us on the same competitive level as them.

4. OPEC & The Oil Money

With regards to the auto industry OPEC and the oil money dump millions of dollars into disputing new technologies and options for the future of transportation. These groups are always looking to subvert new manufacturing that would lessen the need for oil.

5. Unions

While I believe the working man deserves a decent wage ... I do also believe that making 70k as a line worker is excessive. Problem lies within the fact that why would you give up what you have if you knew that the moment you conceed an inch the same greedy exec's would take not a mile ... but every little thing their greedy fat fingers could grab.

While I am by no means saying all companies are " out of touch with reality " the NA car manufacturers are in dire need of a cultural shake-up

[Drea]

Finally!

Someone with a link that proves what the CAW wages really are.... looks like in '04 it was approx. $20/hour... a decent living wage.

caw chapter 6

Edited June 9, 2008 by Drea

[madmax]

Well, I think most folks already knew that point!

Maybe in Hamilton. But no, most politicians in general are dismissive and have been dissmissive of the issues manufacturers face. And they aren't waiting for the Canada to catch up.

Kind of a thin response, don't you think? I'm overwhelmed with your specific suggestions!

Purposefully. I would hate to come across as a know it all with all the solutions. But more importantly, there has been a trend since 2005 that the governments, both Liberal and Conservative and both Provincial and Liberal have choosen to address with apathy.

Actually, when I made that post asking what could Harper do I was really agreeing with the idea of market forces being stronger than government policies. Everybody expects politicians to have some kind of magic wand. They rail at them like scolding a cripple for not riverdancing.

Market forces and Government policy are not mutually exclusive.

I just thought that if someone was going to make criticisms for wrong actions or lack of action it would be more positive if they threw out some specific alternatives. Then we could all chew on them and decide if they were practical and positive in the real world.

I agree with you. I figured others would be interested in posting their positions in addressing the loss of Manufacturing in Canada and government trade policy.

A variation on the idea of how anyone can criticize but few have useful alternatives. Or more simply: "Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way!"Someone had pushed my "utilitarian button", that's all.

All well and good. Are you suggesting that the Government do nothing and continue to watch the erosion of manufacturing sector.

You can choose to support market forces under the current trade practices.

You will be in good company.

And the workers in Oshawa will join the 200,000 others

Edited June 9, 2008 by madmax