HisSelf Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 My solution is the merging of Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Jordan into a single democratic state. This state would have immense power - it would, after all, control the land corridor between Egypt and Lebanon/Syria. It would be a land bridge between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. It would guarantee democratic human rights for all within its borders and it would institute Abudllah II as a constitutional Monarch like the House of Windsor in Great Britain. It would guarantee the right of return for all Jews who migrate there up to a agreed upon cutoff date, and for all Arabs who lived within its borders up to the 1948 war, or who have been born there since. It would have its capital in Jerusalem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 I should mention that such an agreement would need to be interpreeted generously with respect to right of return, rather than miserly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 Never happen. Too many "tribe before flag" hatreds. You have to see it to understand it. Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 Democracy is not an almighty medicine which can cure any kind of disease. Considering the population of Palestanian is more than Israeli or will soon be more than Israeli (for Arabian used to having several wives and tens of kids), and the fact of lacking tolerance in these region, the "democracy country" you proposed would soon become a "majority ruled" Islamic country and Canada would soon have a new immigrants source in the world if it was not a refugee source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 My solution is the merging of Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Jordan into a single democratic state. This state would have immense power - it would, after all, control the land corridor between Egypt and Lebanon/Syria. It would be a land bridge between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. It would guarantee democratic human rights for all within its borders and it would institute Abudllah II as a constitutional Monarch like the House of Windsor in Great Britain. It would guarantee the right of return for all Jews who migrate there up to a agreed upon cutoff date, and for all Arabs who lived within its borders up to the 1948 war, or who have been born there since. It would have its capital in Jerusalem. Good idea but getting rid of the arabs would make it impossible They don t care dfor democracy....they would prefer a kleptocracy, something they can understand and aspire to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 My solution is the merging of Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Jordan into a single democratic state. This state would have immense power - it would, after all, control the land corridor between Egypt and Lebanon/Syria. It would be a land bridge between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. It would guarantee democratic human rights for all within its borders and it would institute Abudllah II as a constitutional Monarch like the House of Windsor in Great Britain. It would guarantee the right of return for all Jews who migrate there up to a agreed upon cutoff date, and for all Arabs who lived within its borders up to the 1948 war, or who have been born there since. It would have its capital in Jerusalem. Here's a better idea. Why not save money at the kennel by housing the dogs and cats in the same cages! What a good idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 Good idea, but very unlikely. There's too many people outside the region who would not benefit. Military stocks would plummet, industrial punditry would have no grist for their mills but above all else, I doubt if many organized religions would ever stand for it. On a visceral level it would be too much like accepting a gay marriage or letting blacks and whites ride on the same bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 Good idea, but very unlikely.There's too many people outside the region who would not benefit. Military stocks would plummet, industrial punditry would have no grist for their mills but above all else, I doubt if many organized religions would ever stand for it. On a visceral level it would be too much like accepting a gay marriage or letting blacks and whites ride on the same bus. Blacks and whites do ride on the same bus, and "gay marriage" has been pretty much adopted by society, so I'm not sure where you're going with such comparisons. Also, the idea that military stocks would plummet is laughable, as is the idea of this combined state as being a good one. Isreali's would become the minority, ruled again by a majority muslim population. I'm not sure I understand the need to take a functioning democracy and turn it into a monarchy and dress it up as pseudo-peace. Seems like the more progressive thing to do, would be to switch monarchies to democracies, not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 What makes this particularly problematic is that Palestinian Arabs and other Arabs living in Jordan are politically two distinct groups. In fact, it is kind of ridiculous to suggest that Israelis and Palestinians should be united under a monarchy that dislikes or despises them both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 What makes this particularly problematic is that Palestinian Arabs and other Arabs living in Jordan are politically two distinct groups. In fact, it is kind of ridiculous to suggest that Israelis and Palestinians should be united under a monarchy that dislikes or despises them both. Doesn't really matter because the first free vote will turn it into a theocracy with Sharia law anyway. Something the Left never wants to really acknowledge; if real democracy came to the Muslim world one day virtually every Muslim state would vote the Mullahs into power and have Sharia law put in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 So, you are saying that it is a choice between an oppressive regime that the people did not ask for and cannot get rid of, and an oppressive regime that the people did ask for and can vote out of power in a couple of years (if this really is democracy we are talking about)? What exactly is so superior about the first option from the perspective of the people being oppressed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 So, you are saying that it is a choice between an oppressive regime that the people did not ask for and cannot get rid of, and an oppressive regime that the people did ask for and can vote out of power in a couple of years (if this really is democracy we are talking about)? What exactly is so superior about the first option from the perspective of the people being oppressed?You'd have a stronger argument if the premise you constructed was true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 I would have a weaker argument if the premise I was refuting was more than a simplistic generalization from which no insight other than that about Argus can be drawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 So, you are saying that it is a choice between an oppressive regime that the people did not ask for and cannot get rid of, and an oppressive regime that the people did ask for and can vote out of power in a couple of years Presuming that oppressive regime would allow that latter; but generally, yes that's the chief presumption of colonization, forced enlightenment, democratization and such: ie. we know better, what is good for you. Of course only works if the morally superior side happens to possess an overwhelming advantage in firepower; otherwise it'll be mutually benefitial cooperation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 What makes this particularly problematic is that Palestinian Arabs and other Arabs living in Jordan are politically two distinct groups. In fact, it is kind of ridiculous to suggest that Israelis and Palestinians should be united under a monarchy that dislikes or despises them both. Apparently you've never been to Jordan and have no idea of who Feisal or Abdullah are, and what their role in history might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 You'd have a stronger argument if the premise you constructed was true. Indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 (edited) Democracy is not an almighty medicine which can cure any kind of disease. Considering the population of Palestanian is more than Israeli or will soon be more than Israeli (for Arabian used to having several wives and tens of kids), and the fact of lacking tolerance in these region, the "democracy country" you proposed would soon become a "majority ruled" Islamic country and Canada would soon have a new immigrants source in the world if it was not a refugee source. Lol. That is exactly his point XUL. Say XUL is there anymore room for "us" in North York? Your guys seem to have filled the remaining parts up. Lol. All I know is my mother lived in the jewish community of Shanghai until 1949 and the Chinese people as poor and hungry as they were lived peacefully with Jews and shared the little they had. I am not sure too many people know that but you know I know. So when I criticize China over Tibet its the same reason I get angry at both Israel and Palestinians. I just wish all this tribal stuff would be settled. Getting people fresh water and food, that is what matters. I hate all governments and everyone equally today. Edited May 13, 2008 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 Here's a better idea. Why not save money at the kennel by housing the dogs and cats in the same cages! What a good idea! I do believe he is trying to be a smarty pants Argus. Maybe we should put him in a cage with a pit bull or a ferral cat and see how he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 I do believe he is trying to be a smarty pants Argus. Maybe we should put him in a cage with a pit bull or a ferral cat and see how he does. Your name calling tells me where you are coming from. The rulers of Jordan have been Israel's best friends in the Arab World. They have absorbed much of your biggest problem at great cost. They have stood behind their word. They have tried to tell you what you simply will not hear. You have to trust somebody if you want peace. Do you honestly think that you can have a monoideoligical state in a pluralistic world? Why can you not see that pluralism will be Israel's strength? Who else in the Middle East can offer this bridge between two worlds? How can you watch Israel do business with so many cultures all over the world and insist that it be monoideoligical itself? Your great opportunity is slipping away. It is time you understood your true friends are not going to stand and tell you that your new clothes look so absolutely splendid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 And furthermore. Jews can make the Semitic world great again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 What you are proposing is just another way for Israel to not even exist. That is going to go over like a ton of bricks. If you were really putting all the options on the table, I bet there would be a high probability of achieving peace in the aftermath of a war where some outside power tried to take over Israel and Palestine without discriminating who they killed to get it. That would force the two groups to work together to survive. Of course, wishing for that would be kind of ridiculous, but it has a damn sight better chance of happening than what you propose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisSelf Posted May 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 You are right. I am proposing a way for Israel to not exist. I am proposing a way for it to survive and to thrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffycat Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 You are right. I am proposing a way for Israel to not exist. I am proposing a way for it to survive and to thrive. you know what HisSelf, I understand what you are saying - but I think first off we must work towards a two-state settlement. Mind you, I am ideologically a 'one stater' myself, but I also recognize that that will never occur given the current situation - perhaps after some time as two states, then the realisation that one state may be better for all involved (due to many reasons such as resources etc). I must concur with Norman Finkelstein on this - every international body agrees on how to settle the two state situation - withdrawl from the occupied territories, a right of return for those who want it - otherwise reparations, and of course reparations for those whose lands and ownings were pilfered. Complete control over their own borders, recognition granted to the new state - no matter what government they people elect democratically - as Israel may not like it too much (tough titties for them - shoulda dealt with the PA when they had the chance). Easy. But again, Israel is NOT interested in peace - just pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 Doesn't really matter because the first free vote will turn it into a theocracy with Sharia law anyway.Something the Left never wants to really acknowledge; if real democracy came to the Muslim world one day virtually every Muslim state would vote the Mullahs into power and have Sharia law put in place. So be it. What the right seems to be incapable of acknowledging is that democracy doesn't always deliver the expected result. If the new Mullahs decide to do away with democracy, then so be it too. They'll only sow the seeds of their own eventual destruction if they do. The real basis for any democratic secular society is the evolution of human rights and there is no better way to force a desire for human rights than to take them away. The sad reality is that real democracy did come to the Muslim world, all on its own, and when it did the West immediately went in...and sowed a bunch of bad seeds - seeds that have been growing and thriving ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffycat Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 So be it. What the right seems to be incapable of acknowledging is that democracy doesn't always deliver the expected result. If the new Mullahs decide to do away with democracy, then so be it too. They'll only sow the seeds of their own eventual destruction if they do. The real basis for any democratic secular society is the evolution of human rights and there is no better way to force a desire for human rights than to take them away.The sad reality is that real democracy did come to the Muslim world, all on its own, and when it did the West immediately went in...and sowed a bunch of bad seeds - seeds that have been growing and thriving ever since. Are you hinting at Mossadeq as an example? We, the west, certainly has been messing about for while there, pouring water in the sandbox and creating nothing but muck and mud. Bad all round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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