Should Gas Taxes Be Lowered?

[pfezziwig]

The federal government is enjoying a huge tax winfall from the rising gas prices, more than they ever hoped for in their budgets for road maintenance and creation.

Should the Federal government be allowed to gouge consumers like big oil companies and OPEC.

We all know that all the extra revenue will not go towards road repair and creating public transportation, so why should we keep paying more gas taxes? Can anyone justify increasing gas revenue taxes?

If the extra revenue was earmarked for environmentally friendly public transportation projects and development of better vehicles I could get behind the idea of increased taxes but I don't feel it will be spent that way.

Staff, GreenCarsNow.com

[margrace]

Yes we need to lower the tax on gas and increase the cost of public transport, NOT

[M.Dancer]

Yes we need to lower the tax on gas and increase the cost of public transport, NOT

Does that mean you want the tax raised?

[oreodontist]

The federal government is enjoying a huge tax winfall from the rising gas prices, more than they ever hoped for in their budgets for road maintenance and creation.

Should the Federal government be allowed to gouge consumers like big oil companies and OPEC.

We all know that all the extra revenue will not go towards road repair and creating public transportation, so why should we keep paying more gas taxes? Can anyone justify increasing gas revenue taxes?

If the extra revenue was earmarked for environmentally friendly public transportation projects and development of better vehicles I could get behind the idea of increased taxes but I don't feel it will be spent that way.

Staff, GreenCarsNow.com

There is no 'dedicated tax'...don't be such a sucker. There is only one taxpayer pocket and one Federal government pot of money. The government can spend, or not, on the environment as desired as long as Parliament approves. You can take a dollar out of your pocket and put it in a cookie jar....but when your pocket is empty and you need to buy a litre of milk, you replace the dollar with another from elsewhere. Nothing has changed by puting a dollar in the cookie jar...it's just moving money around and fooling oneself.

Tax...No. I'd rather the money stay in John Smith's pocket than wasted on another boondoggle program. The Feds are already wasting millions on enviro media ads....the pigs are at the trough squealing for more.

[Leafless]

The federal government is enjoying a huge tax winfall from the rising gas prices, more than they ever hoped for in their budgets for road maintenance and creation.

Should the Federal government be allowed to gouge consumers like big oil companies and OPEC.

We all know that all the extra revenue will not go towards road repair and creating public transportation, so why should we keep paying more gas taxes? Can anyone justify increasing gas revenue taxes?

The federal government does not even have the legal right to impose income tax much less tax gasoline.

Scrap the gas tax entirely, until it can be proven that the total gasoline tax collected is put back into roadway maintenance and new roads.

Canada's roadways in most parts of the country are a disgrace.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Leafless

[eyeball]

No. Gas taxes should be increased but they should be offset by personal income tax cuts. Carbon emissions are bad so tax the hell out of them, to discourage their release. Personal income on the other hand is good so we should decrease or eliminate personal taxes on income to encourage people to make more.

Edited May 2, 2008 by eyeball

[peter_puck]

The federal government does not even have the legal right to impose income tax much less tax gasoline.

Yes the government DOES have the legal right to impose income tax. No, I don't want to here your twisted logic about why they can't, or about the Jewish conspiracy that supposedly hides the truth from us.

As for the gas tax, we should increase it if anything. In the long run, gas is going to cost a whole lot more. If someone has to pay 1.40 a litre now, it may save him from buying a Hummer and paying 4.4 a litre 5 years from now.

[Leafless]

Yes the government DOES have the legal right to impose income tax. No, I don't want to here your twisted logic about why they can't, or about the Jewish conspiracy that supposedly hides the truth from us.

Then maybe you can tell me what piece of legislation allows the federal government to impose and collect income tax on a permanent basis?

As for the gas tax, we should increase it if anything. In the long run, gas is going to cost a whole lot more. If someone has to pay 1.40 a litre now, it may save him from buying a Hummer and paying 4.4 a litre 5 years from now.

You must be a liberal and in favour of draconian, Nazi type oppression.

If you were serious about the environment, you would be suggesting a law that allows a single vehicle per family. This would have an enormous positive effect on pollution.

But this might affect your personal lifestyle and we can't have that, can we.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Leafless

[peter_puck]

Then maybe you can tell me what piece of legislation allows the federal government to impose and collect income tax on a permanent basis?

You must be a liberal and in favour of draconian, Nazi type oppression.

If you were serious about the environment, you would be suggesting a law that allows a single vehicle per family. This would have an enormous positive effect on pollution.

But this might affect your personal lifestyle and we can't have that, can we.

As for the detax stuff, people go to court and get punished all the time for not filing tax returns. Name me one court case where a judge has agreed with your "no right to tax" theory.

No, I am not a liberal, nor a Nazi. I believe in the free market - whose judgement can be far more cruel than either the Nazi's or the liberals. The basic fact is we are running out of oil. Its not taxes, its not greedy oil companies, its supply and demand.

As for one vehicle per family limit, I think that would be to crude a tool (two lawyers using one car). You could put a huge premium on SUV's and Hummers. No one should drive back and forth to work with that much steel. We can limit urban sprawl, promote public transportation etc...

Someone down my street just bough a Hummer - we should increase gas taxes until people stop doing that.

[guyser]

Uh...peter puck ....???...

I believe in the free market -

I could go along with th.....wait a sec...

Someone down my street just bough a Hummer - we should increase gas taxes until people stop doing that.

[Leafless]

As for the detax stuff, people go to court and get punished all the time for not filing tax returns. Name me one court case where a judge has agreed with your "no right to tax" theory.

It is not my theory.

You are the one who said:

Yes the government DOES have the legal right to impose income tax. No, I don't want to here your twisted logic about why they can't, or about the Jewish conspiracy that supposedly hides the truth from us.

So again, show me what piece of legislation allows the federal government to impose and collect income tax on a permanent basis?

[August1991]

Should the Federal government be allowed to gouge consumers like big oil companies and OPEC.

Gouge? Market researchers call that a leading question.

Barack Obama has a good response to this thread and it shows that he and his staff know that they're going to win the Democratic nomination. This guy is aiming for the Big Enchilada in Fall 2008.

Check this out. (Listen to how the violins soar... )

Edited May 2, 2008 by August1991

[Topaz]

Gas prices down in SW Ontario just went to 125.9 this moring and my son was told by the end of next month they will be at 140!!! Since its OPEC that is putting the prices up then maybe something should be done with OPEC like they said about Microsoft having all the power over the computer sector and being one sided.

[mikedavid00]

Can anyone justify increasing gas revenue taxes?

No.

The gov't should have no involvement in the oil and gas business.

[mikedavid00]

No. Gas taxes should be increased but they should be offset by personal income tax cuts.

Do you trust the gov't is going to do this?

Man.. after all these years you still trust the gov't is going to 'offset taxes'.

That's the oldest scam in the book.. you should no better.

[Wilber]

As GST is charged on the full price of fuel including the other taxes, the Feds are making a huge killing on higher prices. When prices rise by 25 cents a liter, the tax on fuel has just been increased by 5 cents a liter without them doing anything. This of course is in addition to the 1.5 cent a liter deficit reduction tax to reduce a deficit we haven't had for years.

[Argus]

Does that mean you want the tax raised?

Apparently that is going to be the Liberal plan - a huge increase to gas taxes, and applying the tax to home heating oil and other fuel sources, as well.

The idea is to offset it with income tax cuts, but you know that some people will wind up paying enormously more than they are now, especially the poor, who currently pay no income tax.

It's a simplistic solution to the idea that carbon emissions is causing global warming - something no one has been able to prove.

it will benefit urban dwellers who can take public transit at the expense of rural and suburban dwellers and it will benefit the well-off, who can afford the latest technological energy saving devices, over those who are trying to make do with older furnaces and cars. If you are a senior on a fixed income struggling to get by and pay the taxes on your sixty year old bungalow the Liberals will punish you for not having the tens of thousands of dollars needed to retrofit it with triple pane glass, heavier insulation and a new furnace. If you're a childless couple living in a pricey downtown condo the Liberal plan will benefit you. If you live in Vancouver, where heating costs are low, you'll come out on top. If you live in Northern Ontario you'll be screwed.

[jdobbin]

Apparently that is going to be the Liberal plan - a huge increase to gas taxes, and applying the tax to home heating oil and other fuel sources, as well.

The Globe is reporting no increase in the gas tax with the plan.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ory/Environment

The plan, according to sources, would shift the 10-cent federal excise tax on a litre of fuel at the pumps into a broad-based carbon tax that would also apply to other fuels, such as for home heating. Sources say that the plan would not add more taxes to gasoline.

The idea is to offset it with income tax cuts, but you know that some people will wind up paying enormously more than they are now, especially the poor, who currently pay no income tax.

Some analysts are saying if the exemption is raised in the personal income tax, they will be staying the same. Just watching that on CTV now.

It's a simplistic solution to the idea that carbon emissions is causing global warming - something no one has been able to prove.

it will benefit urban dwellers who can take public transit at the expense of rural and suburban dwellers and it will benefit the well-off, who can afford the latest technological energy saving devices, over those who are trying to make do with older furnaces and cars. If you are a senior on a fixed income struggling to get by and pay the taxes on your sixty year old bungalow the Liberals will punish you for not having the tens of thousands of dollars needed to retrofit it with triple pane glass, heavier insulation and a new furnace. If you're a childless couple living in a pricey downtown condo the Liberal plan will benefit you. If you live in Vancouver, where heating costs are low, you'll come out on top. If you live in Northern Ontario you'll be screwed.

The proposal as it now stands mimics what the right wing C.D. Howe Institute has proposed.

The Liberals just have to call it revenue neutral and herald the income tax cuts and that gas taxes will not rise.

Income taxes can be cut 8 to 10%. I like the sound of that.

Edited May 8, 2008 by jdobbin

[M.Dancer]

A carbon tax will in effect allow already very profitable polluters to continue their practices while only paying a modest price. The price of course will simply be passed on to consumers so in effect the tax on polluters will be revenue neutral to the polluters and an increase in costs to consumer.... and carbon emissions will not change.

A much more pragmatyic approach is to legislate that polluters reduce their emmisions. while those costs in turn would also be passed to consumers as always, in the end emmisions will be reduced.

[August1991]

The Globe is reporting no increase in the gas tax with the plan.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ory/Environment

Some analysts are saying if the exemption is raised in the personal income tax, they will be staying the same. Just watching that on CTV now.

The proposal as it now stands mimics what the right wing C.D. Howe Institute has proposed.

The Liberals just have to call it revenue neutral and herald the income tax cuts and that gas taxes will not rise.

Income taxes can be cut 8 to 10%. I like the sound of that.

In some ways the Liberal proposal makes sense but here is the fundamental point about any Liberal proposal. They won't implement it. The Liberals make all kinds of promises but they change their minds once they're elected. This has happened so many times that among many voters (ie. me), they have zero credibility however wise and intelligent their policy is.

-----

Now then, should we lower gasoline taxes? Above in this thread I linked to an Obama clip that argued no, we shouldn't. I've given this a little more thought and I think that I've changed my mind.

At present, there are (I believe) federal, provincial and even municipal taxes on gasoline in addition to GST and PST. Diesel is taxed ifferently from gasoline and fuel used for farm vehicles is taxed differently again. Jet fuel (kerosene) is taxed differently also.

Gasoline taxes amount to about 40-45 cents per litre.

What's the logic? Not much except that governments tax gasoline because they can. Other than PST and GST (which apply to everything), it seems to me that gasoline taxes can be justified because they're an imprecise way to collect road-user fees. In addition, they amount to a carbon or pollution tax.

How high should these taxes be? Dunno but I'd like to see a study estimating a gasoline tax on this basis. It may mean that we should raise gasoline taxes or lower them. I must admit though that when oil prices are around $120/barrel, it seems to me that we don't really need a carbon tax. The high price itself amounts to an incentive.

Lastly, what about a revenue neutral policy; that is, a rise in fuel taxes and a cut in income tax. I'm all in favour as long as there is some kind of rebate such as the GST has. I'm not so certain that rich people spend proportionately more on gasoline than poor people. Hence, a gasoline tax falls more heavily on poor people.

A carbon tax will in effect allow already very profitable polluters to continue their practices while only paying a modest price. The price of course will simply be passed on to consumers so in effect the tax on polluters will be revenue neutral to the polluters and an increase in costs to consumer.... and carbon emissions will not change.

A much more pragmatyic approach is to legislate that polluters reduce their emmisions. while those costs in turn would also be passed to consumers as always, in the end emmisions will be reduced.

That's contrary to economic theory and even common sense. When you order someone to do something, they argue, chisel and debate (often rightly) and while it may get done, it comes at a high cost. When you leave people to choose freely but pay the price, it gets done at lower cost (ie. with less hassle). This principle is true when families order in restaurants and when generals issue orders in wars.

Morris, don't underestimate the power of incentives, the price mechanism and time.

Edited May 8, 2008 by August1991

[Keepitsimple]

It seems that people are forgetting that taxes on gas are imposed by both the Provincial Government and the Feds. Here in Ontario, the PST is 8% and the GST is 5%. In some provinces, there's the HST - harmonized tax. I don't hear people clammering for the Provinces to drop their taxes. I know that McGuinty wouldn't dream of giving up a tax......he needs every penny (his words).

[Wilber]

No one caught my crappy arithmetic yet? An increase of $.25 a liter would mean a 1.25 cent increase in tax going to the feds, not 5 cents. Even so, at $1.25 a liter they are collecting 62 cents more in tax for every 50 liter fill than they were when it was $1.00 a liter.

[Argus]

The Globe is reporting no increase in the gas tax with the plan.

How do you draw in an additional $17 billion without raising taxes on gas? Are taxes on home heating oil and natural gas going to rise enormously to bear the full burden? Will we have people freezing to death in their houses because they can't pay for heat? The price of natural gas has already doubled in the last year, and heating oil has gone up almost as much. Add a huge new federal tax onto it and you're asking for trouble.

Income taxes can be cut 8 to 10%. I like the sound of that.

Why? You'll just be paying it all out in gas taxes. The Liberals don't pretend this is going to make you any better off.

Maybe it's simply that you like the SOUND of it. IE, another Liberal policy which is designed for its optics, not to actually do anything of value - much like the long gun registry, for example.

Edited May 8, 2008 by Argus

[Wilber]

The 17 billion can go to the new bureaucracy which will be required to administer the tax and provide rebates to those who are most severely effected but have no other recourse. I can see it now, another big new shiny building full of civil servants in some center where votes are badly needed.

[jdobbin]

In some ways the Liberal proposal makes sense but here is the fundamental point about any Liberal proposal. They won't implement it. The Liberals make all kinds of promises but they change their minds once they're elected. This has happened so many times that among many voters (ie. me), they have zero credibility however wise and intelligent their policy is.

They have also implemented many a policy which many voters remember as well.

I think this policy will be easy to sell as a reduction of personal and corporate income tax cuts.