Benazir Bhutto Dead

[kengs333]

Ha Ha Ha, just what I said. Don't step on the "OLd Boys Club's Toes" they get all riled up. After all men are so much smarter than women aye.????

Actually, I think most men in government, including that of Pakistan's, usually aren't all that "old". Politics requires certain attributes that many women usually don't want to develop, and that's necessarily not a bad thing from a moral and ethical point of view. Those that do take the plunge have long ago proven that women are quite equal when it comes to being ruthless, manipulative, deceptive, corrupt, self-serving, egotistical, etc., etc.--and sometimes even better than men at it. Like Belinda Stronach.

[Drea]

Actually, I think most men in government, including that of Pakistan's, usually aren't all that "old". Politics requires certain attributes that many women usually don't want to develop, and that's necessarily not a bad thing from a moral and ethical point of view. Those that do take the plunge have long ago proven that women are quite equal when it comes to being ruthless, manipulative, deceptive, corrupt, self-serving, egotistical, etc., etc.--and sometimes even better than men at it. Like Belinda Stronach.

Is Stephen Harper ruthless, manipulative, deceptive, corrupt, self-serving, and egotistical?

You said "...long ago proven that women are quite equal..."

So we must assume that in your opinion all politicians are ruthless, manipulative, deceptive, corrupt, self-serving, and egotistical regardless of gender.

While this may be partially true, I do believe that there are some really good people in politics throughout the world that are actually trying to do their best for their peoples and their countries.

[Guest American Woman]

You can quibble with the use of Wiki but there is no question that Bhutto was in power while Taliban used Pakistan as a base of operations.

I won't quibble with your source, but I will say this-- sounds as if her "appropriate anti-Taliban comments" were taken seriously by the Taliban.

"....suspicion [for her assassination] was likely to fall on Islamic militants linked to al-Qaida and the Taliban, who hated Bhutto for her close ties to the Americans and support for the war on terrorism. A local Taliban leader reportedly threatened to greet Bhutto's return to the country from exile in October with suicide bombings."

Link

[Sulaco]

I won't quibble with your source, but I will say this-- sounds as if her "appropriate anti-Taliban comments" were taken seriously by the Taliban.

"....suspicion [for her assassination] was likely to fall on Islamic militants linked to al-Qaida and the Taliban, who hated Bhutto for her close ties to the Americans and support for the war on terrorism. A local Taliban leader reportedly threatened to greet Bhutto's return to the country from exile in October with suicide bombings."

Link

The Taliban also believes that women should wear Burquas. Perhaps they killed her because she refused to wear one. perhaps we shouldn't use the Taliban's beliefs as representative of reality. I suspect had she gotten into power things would ahve been no worse for them and probably better. But just like western media they fell for her charm offensive. Or maybe she really was a changed woman.

But there is no reason to laud her the way she is being lauded at this time. Or I should say there are reasons, but those reasons are either cynical (the left) or naive (the right).

[Guest American Woman]

Seems world leaders are lauding her.

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said Bhutto had risked everything to try and bring democracy to her country, of which Britain used to be the colonial ruler. "The terrorists must not be allowed to kill democracy in Pakistan," he said.

"The subcontinent has lost an outstanding leader who worked for democracy and reconciliation in her country," said Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India, Pakistan's giant neighbor and nuclear rival.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy called the killing odious. "France, like the European Union, is particularly attached to stability and democracy in Pakistan," he said in a letter to Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf.

Bush urged Pakistanis to honor Bhutto's memory by continuing with the democratic process and said those behind the attack must be brought to justice. "The United States strongly condemns this cowardly act by murderous extremists who are trying to undermine Pakistan's democracy," he told reporters at his Texas ranch.

Jose Manuel Barroso, president of the European Union's executive arm, the European Commission, said it was "an attack against democracy and against Pakistan."

Link

Well - take it from those who paid attention to her while she actually was in power - she was not the cats pajamas that she is now made out to be.

I guess they just weren't paying attention while she was in power, eh?

[Higgly]

Pakistan is quickly becoming an Islamic State, Al Qaeda and the Taliban have joined forces. Civil War is on the horizen. She was nothing more than a politician, she is neither a martyr or a hero. She's just dead.

Most political commentators on Pakistan say that religious extremists are not a major force in Pakistani politics. The upcoming election was seen more as a power struggle between the Military and the Security Services (secret police) and Bhutto. Now that she's gone, and with Sharif still out of the picture, guess who gets to stay in power?

Bhutto's people are saying that they got no protection or support from the Pakistani security services.

The Times of India? might be a little biased, but they are closer to the scene than most of the news sources we have over here.

[Who's Doing What?]

A political Statement made using Violence.

Is it really that surprising that in a region of the world where comitting suicide and taking as many innocents as you can is common place that this would happen?

These extremist's get crazy over a bloody cartoon. This was an election! Holy Hannah, they must be going totally off-the-wall-bonkers over Bhutto. Turncoat, traitor, to the Taliban. Viewed as corrupt and politically dangerous to the current regime.

They killed one of their own as far as I can see. Regardless of who she was killed by.

The senseless violence is tragic. But I don't feel any worse because of who she was.

The real problem is that Pakistan is just another state in which violence is used for political outcome.

[Higgly]

These extremist's get crazy over a bloody cartoon.

Well guess what, we have our own sacred cows. This is the bloody problem! We think our scared cows are the only ones that matter!

Do not look at South Asia, nor any other part of the world, through western eyes, including the eyes supplied to us by the western media.

[Who's Doing What?]

Well guess what, we have our own sacred cows. This is the bloody problem! We think our scared cows are the only ones that matter!

Do not look at South Asia, nor any other part of the world, through western eyes, including the eyes supplied to us by the western media.

I have never heard of Athiests rising up and declaring a jihad and killing thousands of people by suicide bomb and other means.

You have no idea how well I understand the complexities of other civilizations. Besides all you need to do is look through the world as a human. Senseless violence is wrong. You want to defend a group that veiws senseless violence as an everyday option then go ahead. Religion or culture, is no excuse for suicide bombings.

[Higgly]

I have never heard of Athiests rising up and declaring a jihad and killing thousands of people by suicide bomb and other means.

No we have "Christians" with massive military capability who invade foreign countries on fabricated grounds.

[DogOnPorch]

Well guess what, we have our own sacred cows. This is the bloody problem! We think our scared cows are the only ones that matter!

We have sacred cows? What would they be? Or is the list a secret? No worries...you have me blocked. Maybe you could quote a Palmolive commercial for me again....

Last time I recall a Canadian riot was over Gn'R not playing Vancouver...and that was maybe a few dozen idiots tops...not the 10s of thousands that turned out for the cartoons. Some of which were doctored by Imam Ahmad Akkari to begin with since the original Danish cartoons were not offensive enough on their own.

"Danish Cartoon": http://pubphilosopher.blogs.com/pub_philos...gninger38_2.jpg

Original...from a pig calling contest in France. http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/pigsqueal.jpg

You have no idea how well I understand the complexities of other civilizations. Besides all you need to do is look through the world as a human. Senseless violence is wrong. You want to defend a group that veiws senseless violence as an everyday option then go ahead. Religion or culture, is no excuse for suicide bombings.

Common sense. I agree with you, totally. Don't mind Higgly. He's always right. You'll get used to it if you hang around.

It's a shame about Ms Bhutto. Could sort of see it coming, though. More a when than an if.

---------------------------------------------------------

You're soaking in it, now!

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Edited December 27, 2007 by DogOnPorch

[BC_chick]

Now that she's gone, and with Sharif still out of the picture, guess who gets to stay in power?

Spot-on.

And the worst part is that Musharaff knows very well that he's going to get away with murder because western leaders' hands are tied. They can condemn him all they want for not providing security, but in the end, he will be the lesser evil than what awaits Pakistan if he were to leave. And so as we already see - the condemnation is mostly geared at the extremists instead of Musharaff.

This whole thing is sickening. Bhutto may have been a corrupt thief, but worse than the current midget-despot? I highly doubt it.

Edited December 28, 2007 by BC_chick

[Moxie]

Higgly Radical Islamist aren't a problem in Government they are a serious problem for "Government". Musharaff hasn't made a serious effort to gain control of those towns because he doesn't care. His lack of interest with the Red Mosque teaching Wahhabi Islam is a prime example of how he could careless about the people being forced to live under Wahhabi Islam. His only goal is leadership, his people be damned.

Remote boarder towns are now under the complete control of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, hell bend on building a Wahhabi Islamic State.

BC Chick, blaming the US for all that ails the world is so tiresome. Find another boggy man, the people of Pakistan can take control if they so choose. Rioting in the streets killing each other isn't exactly a civilized activity. Bhutto was warned they'd kill her, and the Islamist always make good on their threats. All the security in the world isn't going to save her from people who plant bombs on babies (method of the first attack against her) Ask those in hiding globally for speaking out against Islam.

[BC_chick]

BC Chick, blaming the US for all that ails the world is so tiresome.

LOL, not as tiresome as misrepresenting someone else's argument. FYI... If anything, I "blamed" Musharaff. Now, please, try rereading my post s-l-o-w-l-y....

You know, us good-for-nothing "socialists" may not know anything as you see it, but there is no reason to start twisting our words into something completely different.

[Alexandra]

Most political commentators on Pakistan say that religious extremists are not a major force in Pakistani politics. The upcoming election was seen more as a power struggle between the Military and the Security Services (secret police) and Bhutto. Now that she's gone, and with Sharif still out of the picture, guess who gets to stay in power?

It looks like the religious extremists (al QuedaTaliban) are a major force in Pakistani politics.

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Secur...=1.0.1710322437

Karachi, 27 Dec. (AKI) - (by Syed Saleem Shahzad) - A spokesperson for the al-Qaeda terrorist network has claimed responsibility for the death on Thursday of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto.

“We terminated the most precious American asset which vowed to defeat [the] mujahadeen,” Al-Qaeda’s commander and main spokesperson Mustafa Abu Al-Yazid told Adnkronos International (AKI) in a phone call from an unknown location, speaking in faltering English. Al-Yazid is the main al-Qaeda commander in Afghanistan.

It is believed that the decision to kill Bhutto, who is the leader of the opposition Pakistan People's Party (PPP), was made by al-Qaeda No. 2, the Egyptian doctor, Ayman al-Zawahiri in October.

`

[capricorn]

I sometimes wonder if Pakistan could be the country where the world has to rush troops to some day.

IMO this would be a disastrous mistake. Pakistan should be left to sort out its own problems.

I heard two interesting comments today. Eric Margolis said on CTV there may be civil war over Bhutto's death but outside forces should not interfere and let it run its course. Another commentator, don't remember his name but he is Pakistani, said Pakistan is a state not a nation because it is made up of various ethnic (tribal?) communities.

Pakistan achieved statehood only 60 years ago in 1947 when it separated from India. It is sad that this young country is going through such horrible turmoil. Another interesting comment by, one commentator who said this separation was ill timed and should not have happened.

On Bhutto's death, I was glad to hear Harper also extend his condolences to the families of the other victims of the attack that killed Bhutto. They seem to have been forgotten in this whole tragedy.

[Argus]

"The platform of Bhutto's left-leaning Pakistan People's Party promised more funds for education, health, and environmental protection. Cheap loans would help small businesses create jobs, she said." link

It's called making mouth noises. Every politician does it. Doesn't mean she would have ever actually done much for the poor.

[jdobbin]

IMO this would be a disastrous mistake. Pakistan should be left to sort out its own problems.

I heard two interesting comments today. Eric Margolis said on CTV there may be civil war over Bhutto's death but outside forces should not interfere and let it run its course. Another commentator, don't remember his name but he is Pakistani, said Pakistan is a state not a nation because it is made up of various ethnic (tribal?) communities.

Pakistan achieved statehood only 60 years ago in 1947 when it separated from India. It is sad that this young country is going through such horrible turmoil. Another interesting comment by, one commentator who said this separation was ill timed and should not have happened.

On Bhutto's death, I was glad to hear Harper also extend his condolences to the families of the other victims of the attack that killed Bhutto. They seem to have been forgotten in this whole tragedy.

Didn't say I'd want to be responsible for running in there. We might not have any choice if the nuclear weapons suddenly fall into the wrong hands, don't you think? One thing is certain: there had better be a plan buried somewhere to act lightening fast if those weapons come into play.

In the meantime, I think we should be concerned in terms of regional instability. If things go south, we could see refugees flood out in every direction. Fighting could spread right along with it.

[capricorn]

Didn't say I'd want to be responsible for running in there.

No you did not. I was merely commenting on your comment of having to perhaps send troops into Pakistan. I should have been more precise that my view is that this would be unwise in the short term.

We might not have any choice if the nuclear weapons suddenly fall into the wrong hands, don't you think?

Given the anti-war sentiment of most Canadians, IMO Canada would not involve itself, especially if the Liberals are elected.

One thing is certain: there had better be a plan buried somewhere to act lightening fast if those weapons come into play.

As usual, I am sure the US has a contingency plan ready to go and would step up to the plate. Once again, the World Police (as some like to describe the US) would come in to save the day.

In the meantime, I think we should be concerned in terms of regional instability. If things go south, we could see refugees flood out in every direction. Fighting could spread right along with it.

I stand by my opinion. If there is civil war, let it play out. As for the plight of refugees, this is where the world always comes together to lend a hand. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's hope the doomsday scenario does not come to pass.

[jdobbin]

No you did not. I was merely commenting on your comment of having to perhaps send troops into Pakistan. I should have been more precise that my view is that this would be unwise in the short term.

Given the anti-war sentiment of most Canadians, IMO Canada would not involve itself, especially if the Liberals are elected.

As usual, I am sure the US has a contingency plan ready to go and would step up to the plate. Once again, the World Police (as some like to describe the US) would come in to save the day.

I stand by my opinion. If there is civil war, let it play out. As for the plight of refugees, this is where the world always comes together to lend a hand. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's hope the doomsday scenario does not come to pass.

Oh, I'd say there'd likely be support for securing nuclear weapons even if by some miracle the BQ ended up in power. Quite frankly, I think nuclear weapons scare the hell out of a lot of people and to think about them in the hands of people who would use them without hesitation might cause even the most reticent to act.

What I don't think we should be doing in being involved in a civil war. In many respects that is what Iraq has become. The surge of troops as just separate the parties. They continue to be hostile to one another and are making no attempt to form a reconciliation government. What held the old Iraq together was the military and a tyrant.

Not surprisingly, this is the same situation now with Pakistan. I would not want to be anywhere near the civil strife there. However, unlike Iraq, we know they have weapons of mass destruction present.

I always thought the Afghan mission should have been an "in and out" affair. Smash al Qaeda and Taliban support systems and be prepared to do that again and again till they got the idea. I am dubious on the nation building phase of places that remain tribal and wish to continue that way.

One of the reasons that airport was closed was to stem the rush of people to escape CNN says. Not good.

Edited December 28, 2007 by jdobbin

[BubberMiley]

Doesn't mean she would have ever actually done much for the poor.

Doesn't mean she wouldn't have either. I like to give the benefit of the doubt to people who have just been assassinated by extremists. Kicking them when they're very down is rather classless, don't you think?

Edited December 28, 2007 by BubberMiley

[margrace]

It's called making mouth noises. Every politician does it. Doesn't mean she would have ever actually done much for the poor.

Yes we all know when that kind of politics is threatening us, mouth noises all around

[jbg]

Well that isn't much different than the discussion on here about the cuts to women's programs, threaten the men's suppuriority and what happens?

At least you're giving equal time to an anti-female Muslim atrocity.

What this demonstrates is that a good share of Pakistanis enjoy living like animals.

[jbg]

Yes and she was also very attractive and the camera loved her. Despite her corruption and lust for power, given the fact that Pakistan doesn't have a lot of notables to offer, her loss will be felt around the world.

I remember that her father was also considered to be the solution to Pakistan's problems in 1971 when he supplanted military dictator Ayub Khan, and rather severely disappointed in that role.

[Topaz]

As in any muderer, question is who would benefit from her death, the present government of Musharraf. My understanding of her, she had more supporters than he. She also blamed the US for her father's death, to place a friendier govt for them. I think there's more corruptions in every government in today world and especially in the Middle-East and al for greed amd power. There's a possibility she could have help with peace in Afghanistan and now that's gone.