DND Spending

[eyeball]

On the other hand we could avoid militarily mucking about in the world's quagmires and stick to humanitarian aid. Hitch-hiking provides the opportunity to talk our rides into switching tactics in their approach to the quagmires and how to be more polite and not create them in the first place.

Offering aggressive countries an opportunity to be more charitable towards others just might have a gentling effect on them and motivate them to change their ways. The same thing apparently works wonders with bullies.

[bush_cheney2004]

On the other hand we could avoid militarily mucking about in the world's quagmires and stick to humanitarian aid.

Oh, you mean like the DART team deployment to Sri-Lanka? It finally showed up more than a week after other military units from other nations.

Although the DART team was ready to leave within 24 hours of when the disaster struck, the government took 2 days to announce that the team would be dispatched, and it took nearly 2 weeks for DART to actually leave for Sri Lanka, due to a lack of available air transport.

Edited January 7, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[capricorn]

Glad our forces are getting the new heavy lift aircraft no matter who gets the maintenance contracts. In todays modern military world we need to be stop hitch hiking.

Yes. Our troops should be equipped for maximum personal protection and getting the job done. Our country is not second rate and has suffered enough humiliation through underfunding and neglect.

[capricorn]

On the other hand we could avoid militarily mucking about in the world's quagmires and stick to humanitarian aid. Hitch-hiking provides the opportunity to talk our rides into switching tactics in their approach to the quagmires and how to be more polite and not create them in the first place.

Would a few refrains of Cumbaya also accompany this plea to cease and desist all intended military action? How about group hugs?

Offering aggressive countries an opportunity to be more charitable towards others just might have a gentling effect on them and motivate them to change their ways. The same thing apparently works wonders with bullies.

Really? Do you think all those aid workers that have been kidnapped, terrorized, tortured or murdered by "aggressive" countries would share your kinder, gentler approach? Here's an idea. Why don't you test out your own theory as an aid worker for awhile in one of those aggressive countries? Then report back to us on your findings.

[M.Dancer]

Would a few refrains of Cumbaya also accompany this plea to cease and desist all intended military action? How about group hugs?

Really? Do you think all those aid workers that have been kidnapped, terrorized, tortured or murdered by "aggressive" countries would share your kinder, gentler approach? Here's an idea. Why don't you test out your own theory as an aid worker for awhile in one of those aggressive countries? Then report back to us on your findings.

A few good bong hits and you will see how it all makes sense.....

[capricorn]

A few good bong hits and you will see how it all makes sense.....

I see what you mean. Long ago, I attended a party where the majority had smoked a few joints. The group in question was marveling at the beauty of an Oreo cookie. That did it for me and I never touched the stuff.

[eyeball]

I wonder what DND procurement staff are smoking?

[eyeball]

Using public funds for just about anything that isn't related to the military or enforcment industries appears to be a revolting prospect to many posters I've seen on this forum. The ridicule most warhacks have for even the DND is palpable. No wonder, even in the best of times under the most supportive governments they still screw things up and piss money away like it was just another out of control gun registry or HRDC project.

Privatization is the standard prescription for virtually everything else the government does so why don't you folks put your money where your mouths are and fund the military through war bonds? As it is I'm supporting your militarism against my will everytime I remit my taxes and I resent that as much as anyone who resents watching their hard earned money get flushed down a bottomless pit of waste and mismanagement.

[Army Guy]

I wonder what DND procurement staff are smoking?

Actually, every large piece of military hardware is procured thru PWSG, a civilian organzation, that handles all government spending and purchases over 5000.00. They have no links to DND at all.

Kind of like sending your wife down to buy your power tools, or your husband down to buy hygine products....you hope and pray they get what you want ...more times than not it's not even close to what you want or need....only difference is lives depend on these purchases.

As it is I'm supporting your militarism against my will everytime I remit my taxes and I resent that as much as anyone who resents watching their hard earned money get flushed down a bottomless pit of waste and mismanagement.

No one gets a say in just how each and every one of our personal tax dollars get spent, but lets face it DND is not the only government dept that waste monies...and since only 7 cents out of every one of your dollars gets spent on defense i'd say it's a small price to pay....for the services alot of Canadians recieve 24 hours a day 365 days a year....

check the site i provided and you'll find tones of depts getting a lot bigger share of the pie and not really producing anything or providing any services.

CDN tax guide

PS as a guy who's life depends on your tax dollars thanks, just wish there was more of them.

[Oleg Bach]

Nice spin job...here is what really happened:

The United States initially expressed reservations about Ottawa's plans but became more supportive after an agreement last June on the traffic of American vessels through the Northwest Passage. The United States pledged that no American icebreakers would travel through the passage without Ottawa's express permission.

President Reagan promised Prime Minister Brian Mulroney last April that Washington would not block the transfer of American nuclear reactor technology for the submarines.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...757C0A96F948260

I don't get this spending thing. We aid and power up China and that pin head Putin not to mention the little rat that runs Pakistan - then - the very dog that you feed turns on you and becomes a threat eventually..then we have to spend money defending ourselves from the very monsters we enabled - I guess that someone profits from conflict. Heaven knows it's not me or the average citizen! It all reminds me of the hero that crys fire in the theatre - and is awarded a medal for "saving lives" - meanwhile the "hero" who cried fire was the one who set the blaze and was the one who gives the alarm -

AND now sets up shop selling bandages for the burn victims - AND corners the morphine buisness and profits - while acting like the nice guy that has come to assist with pain control...getting richer by the second. I say if our leaders and buisness leaders were more well behaved and knew how to get along with other nations (families) there would be no need for offence or defence - BUT - I suppose that there is no profit in maintaining peace...the whole defence industry is a massive fraud - also -- - the use of Israel as a dupe and a money laundering centre globally for weapons dealers is a masssive human rights abuse and the worst kind of usery - It's not just "Blood for oil", It's blood period and the auto-cannibalism of our own and others that is an utter sin - pathetic - arms dealers should all be jailed - legit and illegitimate.

[jbg]

On the other hand we could avoid militarily mucking about in the world's quagmires and stick to humanitarian aid. Hitch-hiking provides the opportunity to talk our rides into switching tactics in their approach to the quagmires and how to be more polite and not create them in the first place.

Offering aggressive countries an opportunity to be more charitable towards others just might have a gentling effect on them and motivate them to change their ways. The same thing apparently works wonders with bullies.

Just ask Jimmy Carter how well that worked. The Iranians laughed at him (along with Americans laughing at him over "killer rabbits").

[jbg]

I wonder what DND procurement staff are smoking?

How's your BC Bud?

[eyeball]

No one gets a say in just how each and every one of our personal tax dollars get spent

That's right, which is why offensive military adventures outside our border should be funded through war bonds. I'm a conscientious objector its as simple as that, and war bonds are the only fair way I see to separate the doves from the hawks and ensure the hawks pay their own way in the world.

Lest you believe I'm willing to sit passively by while other countries and governments simply go on rampaging around the world, I think Canada should unilateraly declare the export of arms across international borders to be a crime against humanity. Arms manufacturers and merchants should be regarded as being worse than pedophiles, the simple fact the world is so awash in arms is why there is so much death whenever people are conflicted over something. We should invite other conscientious countries to join us in applying full economic sanctions against any and all countries who continue to trade in military weapons, of any kind.

We have vital natural resources that other countries need and we should be exploiting them in more creative ways than simply liquidating them for our own immediate benefit. We should be witholding them from any arms exporting nations who refuse to get with the program. Think of it as being like a combination tough love/just say no approach and cut them off. I'm pretty sure this would cost Canadians a lot more than the .07 on the dollar they're wasting now trying to force peace on a violent world but I bet we'd get one hell of a lot bigger bang for the buck.

PS as a guy who's life depends on your tax dollars thanks, just wish there was more of them.

I wonder how many gun registry employees feel the same way? While we're on the subject of people paying their own ticket, I don't own a gun so why should I have to pay for their oversight? I say we invoice the gun owners.

[White Doors]

While we're on the subject of people paying their own ticket, I don't own a gun so why should I have to pay for their oversight? I say we invoice the gun owners.

They already do. feel better?

That's right, which is why offensive military adventures outside our border should be funded through war bonds. I'm a conscientious objector its as simple as that, and war bonds are the only fair way I see to separate the doves from the hawks and ensure the hawks pay their own way in the world.

I disagree with lots of things the government spends their money on. I still pay my taxes.

If you really feel you have the right not to pay your taxes because you disgaree with a UN sanctioned military mission, feel free to take up your case with Revenue Canada. Best of luck with that.

Lest you believe I'm willing to sit passively by while other countries and governments simply go on rampaging around the world, I think Canada should unilateraly declare the export of arms across international borders to be a crime against humanity. Arms manufacturers and merchants should be regarded as being worse than pedophiles, the simple fact the world is so awash in arms is why there is so much death whenever people are conflicted over something. We should invite other conscientious countries to join us in applying full economic sanctions against any and all countries who continue to trade in military weapons, of any kind.

I think rampant, vacuous stupidity that costs millions and accomplishes nothing should be a crime against humanity.

[Army Guy]

That's right, which is why offensive military adventures outside our border should be funded through war bonds. I'm a conscientious objector its as simple as that, and war bonds are the only fair way I see to separate the doves from the hawks and ensure the hawks pay their own way in the world.

Thats a double edge sword don't you think, do you really think that your new method of deciding where each of our tax dollars would work...do you think that those depts or programs would truely get the funding they need...

only pay into programs you use or want to. How many would opt to pay into our current health care system....

How many Canadians would elect to pay any taxes at all ..There alot of depts or programs that burn my ass as well, ones that i pay into and can not use. Such as UI, Health Care, to name a few....

As a Canadian tax payer you do have a say in what missions or operations that our nation goes on. and it comes in many forms....your vote, your voice, the list goes on.

You say your a conscientious objector when really your anti military period..And it pisses you off that this board is full of military or ex military people, people that don't hold or share the same values as yourself. It's very clear in your posts, your opinion is valued on this board, by most, but to state your case you don't have to poke the lion in the eye and then wave the stick in front of his face. but if it please you to do so then don't be surprised when it bites you...

Lest you believe I'm willing to sit passively by while other countries and governments simply go on rampaging around the world, I think Canada should unilateraly declare the export of arms across international borders to be a crime against humanity. Arms manufacturers and merchants should be regarded as being worse than pedophiles, the simple fact the world is so awash in arms is why there is so much death whenever people are conflicted over something. We should invite other conscientious countries to join us in applying full economic sanctions against any and all countries who continue to trade in military weapons, of any kind.

Do you really think that would solve all the problems the world is having today, give me a break...And what do we do with those nations that build thier own arms ...And then use them on the weaker nations....besides do you really think the worlds major arms dealers really give a shit if you apply santions again'st them china, russia, USA....come on...

Arms are not responsiable for mans need to kill each other....man is...man has been doing it since he could walk....arms just make it more efficient....in Rwanda hundrds of thousands died, most by clubs and Machettes....

We have vital natural resources that other countries need and we should be exploiting them in more creative ways than simply liquidating them for our own immediate benefit. We should be witholding them from any arms exporting nations who refuse to get with the program. Think of it as being like a combination tough love/just say no approach and cut them off.

You still don't get it do you, lets just say one day we cut the US of from all our natural resources...after warning them to stop selling arms across the globe....how long do you think it would take for them just to come up here and take them....I think your tough love would be shove up your tough bum....Beside who would enforce this tough love and bunch of conscientious objectors, who are opposed to violence or the use of it.

Problem with objectors is they are the first to scream bloody hell about military spending....but are the first to scream, why we did not have enough search and rescue equipment to pull thier asses out of the ocean or mountain top, they are the first to scream during ice storms, and floods, and forests fires....WHY WHY WHY....we were not ready....

[eyeball]

So the gun registry actually is being entirely funded by user fees? I'm afraid that sounds to good to be true WD.

As I pointed out, I specifically said that war-bonds should be used to replace offensive military spending. I said nothing at all about opting out of paying taxes for things like health-care. Courts and governments have given recognition to an individuals right to conscientiously object, that is, to not be forced to participate in war on moral or religious grounds. War-bonds would give the act of conscientiously objecting real teeth and it would put the onus on the proponents of war to really come up with solid reasons for going there. By my count Canada's changed it's reason for being in Afghanistan at least three times now.

I doubt if WD or AG would spend much time differentiating between the country or person who funds their enemy from the enemy itself. Neither do I when it comes to being forced to fund an unwarranted invasion. Not in my name you don't. I'm not anti-military at all when it comes to defending our country from an attack on its border or helping out in disasters at home or abroad. The attacks on 9/11 were a criminal operation. Terrorism is a tactic not a country or a place you can carpet-bomb or invade.

Do you really think that would solve all the problems the world is having today,

No.

And what do we do with those nations that build thier own arms

Insist that we monitor them closely and let them know in no uncertain terms that exporting arms will result in immediate sanctions.

...And then use them on the weaker nations....

Seize whatever assets they have in our country, stop dealing with them economically, send humanitarian aid where we can. Turkey for example should be getting raked over the coals for their incursions into Northern Iraq. Its inconscionable what they are doing.

besides do you really think the worlds major arms dealers really give a shit if you apply santions again'st them china, russia, USA....come on...

Absolutely they would give a shit. I'm not so naive as to believe everyone's going to get with the program the day after its initiated but I bet the US would be deeply affected if we even just began to explore the options I propose. Especially if we pass a law that Canadian invasions of countries like Afghanistan or Iran can only be funded by war-bonds. I can't help but note the recent revisionism taking place around Chretien's decision to not join in the US invasion of Iraq. Apparently we're to believe the US really didn't want our help because our lack of adequate resources would have hindered them. What's being glossed over here is the deep importance and value the US placed on our moral support. The US would definitely take notice if we began exploring an option of activist pacifism. China and Russia will probably be a little harder to bring into line but that's no excuse for us to not start blazing a higher path.

Arms are not responsiable for mans need to kill each other....man is...man has been doing it since he could walk....arms just make it more efficient....in Rwanda hundrds of thousands died, most by clubs and Machettes....

Yep. Non-interference in the affairs of others is going to require a lot of fortitude and its going to be very painful having to watch a lot of unresolved madness unfold. This leads us to another avenue I would take Canada down. I'd would propose we host a global Truth, Reconciliation and Reparations process to untangle a lot of the underlying historical causes of many of the world's conflicts, such as past imperialistic practice of deliberately creating artifical borders around people that were traditionally separate.

In some cases there will be some failed states and cultures that can never be rescued. Cultures go extinct from time to time just like other organisms that can't adapt or otherwise fit in, sometimes you just have to let nature take its course.

You still don't get it do you, lets just say one day we cut the US of from all our natural resources...after warning them to stop selling arms across the globe....how long do you think it would take for them just to come up here and take them....

Please... America would find itself in a world of trouble if it tried that. The US would soon find itself up against the British Commonwealth, not to mention the EU, NATO and probably Russia and China too. I suspect there would also be millions of objectors and dissidents in the US that the American government would also have to deal with. At this point I would expect the US to capitulate and once that happened the militaristic dominoes being propped up by the US around the world would fall like...dominoes.

I think your tough love would be shove up your tough bum....Beside who would enforce this tough love and bunch of conscientious objectors, who are opposed to violence or the use of it.

Economic pain and the weight of moral suasion.

Problem with objectors is they are the first to scream bloody hell about military spending....but are the first to scream, why we did not have enough search and rescue equipment to pull thier asses out of the ocean or mountain top, they are the first to scream during ice storms, and floods, and forests fires....WHY WHY WHY....we were not ready....

Problem with militarists is they refuse to think outside the box, their solution is to derail any discussion of a peaceful strategy by speculative tangents into things like ice storms and mountain tops while demanding more gasoline to put out their fires.

To summarize we need to do the following in the order listed.

1. Start moving towards war-bonds.

2. Follow this with our declaration that Canada regards the trading of arms to be a crime against humanity.

3. Begin the Truth, Reconciliation and Reparation process I proposed.

4. Develop a program that allows for the sanction of recalcitrant countries. Sanctions could start with tarrifs and duties on exports and imports and eventually to boycotts and a refusal to export anything to them at all, no matter how mucg they are willing to pay.

A Canadian War on War will be the greatest challenge this nation has ever faced. All that remains to ask is, are you with us or against us?

Edited January 8, 2008 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

I'm morally opposed to public schools, Macedonian Folk music, kelp farmers and publicly funded safe injection sites. Can I opt out?

[eyeball]

Morris there's been nothing new or acerbic (or did you mean asserbic) about your act for years now. Give it a rest why don't you.

[Wilber]

A Canadian War on War will be the greatest challenge this nation has ever faced. All that remains to ask is, are you with us or against us?

40% of the Canadian economy comes from exports. You are going to win your war by boycoting your best customers? Should be no problem, you won't have any money to buy foreign goods anyway.

[eyeball]

Our best customers? Canadians are not doing themselves any favours by dealing with networks of international arms dealers, notwithstanding Brian Mulroney I suppose.

Canada's economy will change, there is no doubt about it but there's as much reason to believe that change will include booms and busts. The manufacturing sector will surge as offshore supplies become restricted, I would support a heavy government investment in renewing the manufacturing sector and other interventions elsewhere as required in the economy. Country's on a war footing have justifiably done this in the past.

We're in this for the species boys and girls. You apes want to live forever?

[Wilber]

Our best customers? Canadians are not doing themselves any favours by dealing with networks of international arms dealers, notwithstanding Brian Mulroney I suppose.

Canada's economy will change, there is no doubt about it but there's as much reason to believe that change will include booms and busts. The manufacturing sector will surge as offshore supplies become restricted, I would support a heavy government investment in renewing the manufacturing sector and other interventions elsewhere as required in the economy. Country's on a war footing have justifiably done this in the past.

We're in this for the species boys and girls. You apes want to live forever?

I would be curious to know what you do for a living, if anything.

[M.Dancer]

Morris there's been nothing new or acerbic (or did you mean asserbic) about your act for years now. Give it a rest why don't you.

Why? pointing out your brand of hippy dippy touchy feelylunacy is a not only an enjoyable pasttime, it's also a spectator sport. Now would yoiu mind answering my question or did you already forget what your position was...

to wit, if you think you should be able to opt out of a canadian mission, why can'r every Canadian be able to opt out of any tax funded operation.

....but I will understand if you are unable to answer that very simple question.

Oh, and by the way, the rules here are very tight. If I were you I would drop your passive aggresive malarky and your clever insults berfore you find out the hard way.

[eyeball]

Can I opt out?

You can do what ever you like.

[eyeball]

I would be curious to know what you do for a living, if anything.

Well, here's a clue. I opted out of EI years ago.

Go figure eh?

[eyeball]

Oh, and by the way, the rules here are very tight. If I were you I would drop your passive aggresive malarky and your clever insults berfore you find out the hard way.

You sound just like a moderator, I recognize the tone.

Yes sir all the same and thanks for the heads up.