Army Guy Posted February 5, 2008 Report Posted February 5, 2008 No i don't speak for anyone but myself....that being said, are you listening to those that have spoken....what are they saying....quit, go home or stay and fight... i personally think that the majority of people are not listening...nor do they want to.....then there are the minority that have never really left our side. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted February 5, 2008 Report Posted February 5, 2008 I think the majority can hear alright but they're tuning it out because they can't believe half of what they're being told. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
M.Dancer Posted February 5, 2008 Report Posted February 5, 2008 No i don't speak for anyone but myself....that being said, are you listening to those that have spoken....what are they saying....quit, go home or stay and fight... i personally think that the majority of people are not listening...nor do they want to.....then there are the minority that have never really left our side. No you are putting words into his mouth, dostorting his voice and quote mangling. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Army Guy Posted February 5, 2008 Report Posted February 5, 2008 I think the majority can hear alright but they're tuning it out because they can't believe half of what they're being told I understand now, thier to lazy to verify the info thru another source....I mean we are talking about the very people who had no problem in sending us there, "our troops are going to kick your asses now".......you have faith in us to sort out the problems" dispose of the bad guys", but would not trust us to tell the truth....especially since we as soldiers and indiv have so much to gain by staying over there.... It's a good thing we don't have that same problem, we as soldiers trust the Canadain public with our lives, we depend on you for our very existance, safety, and well being.....what do we know.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted February 6, 2008 Report Posted February 6, 2008 I understand now, thier to lazy to verify the info thru another source.... No I think they're alarmed and appalled at the controversy over what constitutes evidence and a credible source of information. The neutrality of history itself is in question. It's a good thing we don't have that same problem, we as soldiers trust the Canadain public with our lives, we depend on you for our very existance, safety, and well being.... You've got more problems than you think, you trust a people and a country that don't know what to trust or even how to trust it. ...what do we know... You tell me. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Army Guy Posted February 6, 2008 Report Posted February 6, 2008 No I think they're alarmed and appalled at the controversy over what constitutes evidence and a credible source of information. The neutrality of history itself is in question. So your confirming what we already know, they don't trust our soldiers to tell them whats going on....But i wonder what they would be saying if we had agreed with them"by screaming withdraw us now this is a farce". You've got more problems than you think, you trust a people and a country that don't know what to trust or even how to trust it. No it's not a problem, we have to trust the nation and it's people. not trusting them is not an opition.. You tell me. I and many other military members have been telling you, you have just choose not to listen. You can't help but learn something about these people, we live with them, patrol thier streets, and country side, we talk to them on a daily basis, we see the progress of construction, and other aid projects...we know because we are on the ground, ....most of us have completed 3 or 4 tours of 6 to 7 months each , how could we not be better informed than the average Canadian...or for that matter the average media reporter, or avg polictical hack working for some party... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Posted February 6, 2008 ...I and many other military members have been telling you, you have just choose not to listen. You can't help but learn something about these people, we live with them, patrol thier streets, and country side, we talk to them on a daily basis, we see the progress of construction, and other aid projects...we know because we are on the ground, ....most of us have completed 3 or 4 tours of 6 to 7 months each , how could we not be better informed than the average Canadian...or for that matter the average media reporter, or avg polictical hack working for some party... Now that is a nice bit of writing....announcing a credibility that cannot be assailed. You know because you bleed and die with them too. There is no substitute. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted February 7, 2008 Report Posted February 7, 2008 So your confirming what we already know, they don't trust our soldiers to tell them whats going on.... I have no trouble at all trusting your accounts of the humanitarian disaster and savagery you see but you're apparently not required to put these in any kind of larger context, so you don't. Some soldiers do and just as there are cops who think the war on drugs is an unfounded unmitigated disaster there are soldiers who say the same about the war on terror. Yes humanitarian disaster and savagery is an immense tragedy and it exists in a lot of other places on this planet - in places we could be addressing them without having to fire a single shot or get entangled in a political quagmire that doesn't involve us. But i wonder what they would be saying if we had agreed with them"by screaming withdraw us now this is a farce". If you're talking about large numbers of soldiers agreeing with civilians like me, there'd probably be more people questioning the government's wisdom. Instead what we have is a seemingly solid corp of support in the photo-ops that politicians pushing for this war bask in. No it's not a problem, we have to trust the nation and it's people. not trusting them is not an option.. Bullshit, you're a volunteer not a conscriptee and further to that you have a duty to uphold human rights and its your personal legal responsibility to ensure your orders don't compromise these. I have no doubt you do this whenever you are on-the-ground, on patrol on a day to day basis. Somebody however also has to apply this duty in the context of the bigger picture that is beyond your scope and responsibility and this means civilians like me and the politicians whose actions we are ultimately responsible for. I take my job every bit as seriously as you take yours. I and many other military members have been telling you, you have just choose not to listen. You can't help but learn something about these people, we live with them, patrol thier streets, and country side, we talk to them on a daily basis, we see the progress of construction, and other aid projects...we know because we are on the ground, ....most of us have completed 3 or 4 tours of 6 to 7 months each , how could we not be better informed than the average Canadian...or for that matter the average media reporter, or avg polictical hack working for some party... I have listened to you and many on-the-ground accounts of why this mission is so important and I've weighed what I've heard against what I have learned from other sources. I have no idea know why you're not better informed about the bigger picture than the average Canadian, reporter or political hack. The way you spit that last bit out makes me think you really don't give a damn so maybe that's your answer. I am convinced you are on a vain mission that will completely fail to meet any of its long-term objectives because the fundamental underlying reasons for the conflict have been deliberately ignored. You should be withdrawn and sent to those regions of the world where we can make lasting differences. We can always resume humanitarian aid to Afghanistan once the US and other super powers are persuaded to stop interefering in the region and begin negotiations with their adversary's. The west has a lot of bloody gall to talk about building lasting security and peace while also shipping in billions of dollars worth of military equipment to the region. I am convinced that we can do a lot more for Afghanistan a lot faster by blazing a much higher road and using our well-honed capacity for moral suasion coupled with economic incentives and sanctions to force the cessation of the military and economic intereference that is plaguing the region. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Army Guy Posted February 7, 2008 Report Posted February 7, 2008 I have no trouble at all trusting your accounts of the humanitarian disaster and savagery you see but you're apparently not required to put these in any kind of larger context, so you don't. Some soldiers do and just as there are cops who think the war on drugs is an unfounded unmitigated disaster there are soldiers who say the same about the war on terror. I disagree, when your totally submerged in the situation, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you have plenty of time to put it into context, or look at the bigger picture. we eat ,sleep, Afgan, we see our governments big picture everyday as we are the instruments that impliment that policy...we see what is working what is not, we have come to learn what will work and what does not...and not just from our governments side of the problem..but also from the tribal and clans piont of view, with our daily interaction with them...but also thru the Afgan governments piont of veiw as they are the major force and voice that drives our efforts... Without putting it into a larger context it is hard to motivate anyone into doing the things we do everyday...So i would say Yes every soldier has a clear understanding of the big picture, hence why we can do the things we do, and hence why we are still so motivated to accomplish the task , while knowing the full consquences of do that.. As for the soldiers that say anything about the war on terror, while we don't always agree on the governments direction, i would say most if not all understand the reasons why it's needed ?, just not the how it is being done... That being said you would be hard pressed to find a Canadian soldier that has served in Afgan have a negative remark about the mission.... And in all the missions we have done, it is a rare thing indeed to have this amount of support from the troops...That fact is the another one that has gone unnoticed by the Canadian public... If you're talking about large numbers of soldiers agreeing with civilians like me, there'd probably be more people questioning the government's wisdom. Instead what we have is a seemingly solid corp of support in the photo-ops that politicians pushing for this war bask in. No what we have here is a clear line in the sand....the majority of Canadians on one side, and our soldiers on the other...The soldiers minds are not clouded by our media nor our governments inactions to soundly inform the public....we get the kodiak version every day in real life, real time....thats why we push for this war....As for the politicians , all of the parties have had thier share in the photo -ops.... Bullshit, you're a volunteer not a conscriptee and further to that you have a duty to uphold human rights and its your personal legal responsibility to ensure your orders don't compromise these. I have no doubt you do this whenever you are on-the-ground, on patrol on a day to day basis. Somebody however also has to apply this duty in the context of the bigger picture that is beyond your scope and responsibility and this means civilians like me and the politicians whose actions we are ultimately responsible for. I take my job every bit as seriously as you take yours. No it's not Bullshit, if soldiers did not trust the Canadian people with thier lives, safety, very existance there would be no military....who would serve if they could not trust the public? so it's not an opition but a fact of service life... Lets not kid ourselfs here, typical Canadian civilians really don't take this self appionted duty all that serious do they....when was the last time that a majority of canadians stood up with one voice and demanded our government take action, or change current policy... for example you have a majority of Canadians that want out of Afgan...have they used this voice to demand we withdrawal...No...will they use it election day, perhaps...does this mean next time our soldiers are in a comprimizing postion we have to wait until an election... I'd also like to remind everyone that soldiers are citizens as well, who also have a vote and opinions, and we should not be brushing them off, or letting thier opinions go unheard. I have listened to you and many on-the-ground accounts of why this mission is so important and I've weighed what I've heard against what I have learned from other sources. I have no idea know why you're not better informed about the bigger picture than the average Canadian, reporter or political hack. The way you spit that last bit out makes me think you really don't give a damn so maybe that's your answer. I would not be posting at all if i did not give a damn, in fact it is the other way around, i'm very passionate, perhaps to passionate...i've seen the the destuction that a small group can bring to the masses. And seen first hand the help our nation is providing, and accomplishing and very much want that to continue...Not for any polictical reason, or grand scheme of control over others...but rather a much simplier reason, to help defend a people whom can't defend themselves.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted February 7, 2008 Report Posted February 7, 2008 i've seen the the destuction that a small group can bring to the masses. You mean like PNAC? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Wilber Posted February 7, 2008 Report Posted February 7, 2008 If you're talking about large numbers of soldiers agreeing with civilians like me, there'd probably be more people questioning the government's wisdom. Instead what we have is a seemingly solid corp of support in the photo-ops that politicians pushing for this war bask in. In other words you don't care what the people doing the job think, you've made up your mind. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Army Guy Posted February 7, 2008 Report Posted February 7, 2008 Sorry not familar with the term PNAC. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
blueblood Posted February 7, 2008 Report Posted February 7, 2008 Hmm, I seen on MDL the support for mission was 50% support and 46% opposed. I personally believe that the time to debate over a mission is right at the start before the gov't commits to it, but after the troops are sent, they should be supported so they get the job done, done fast, and done right so they get home all the faster. Personally at the start I thought the only course of action taken should have been a couple strategically dropped bombs at the right time to chop the head off the snake and let the Afghans decide their country, but since the troops were ordered in there, they should do their job. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
jdobbin Posted August 7, 2008 Author Report Posted August 7, 2008 http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories Canada's military will soon be getting new medium-lift helicopters and unmanned surveillance drones, Defence Minister Peter MacKay announced on Thursday.At a press conference in Longueuil, Que., MacKay said Ottawa will lease up to six Russian-made choppers and later buy six used U.S.-made Chinook helicopters. Those choppers, manufactured by Boeing, will have the ability to transport both troops and equipment. Kind of funny how MacKay criticizes the Liberals for military spending when they were the ones that sold the heavy lift helicopters in the first place. Our military gets to see them in Afghanistan every time the Dutch fly over. Quote
jdobbin Posted August 7, 2008 Author Report Posted August 7, 2008 And here is some spending that Hillier left for Canadians. http://thechronicleherald.ca/Columnists/1071328.html What was even more astounding was that Labbé’s promotion was to be backdated to the year 2000, even though DND officials confirmed he will be retiring this month.In other words, he will never actually exercise the powers and responsibility of a brigadier-general, but he will receive not only a sizable sack of cheese in terms of back pay, but also a generous boost to his already sizeable pension. Many military critics familiar with Labbé’s past — myself included — immediately denounced this retroactive promotion. Quote
Army Guy Posted August 8, 2008 Report Posted August 8, 2008 Hillier ordered a review, and found that col Labbe's was entitled to his promotion in 2000, and it had been undully with held....The CDS was just making it right... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
jdobbin Posted August 8, 2008 Author Report Posted August 8, 2008 Hillier ordered a review, and found that col Labbe's was entitled to his promotion in 2000, and it had been undully with held....The CDS was just making it right... And a lot of people, including big boosters of the military believe this was wrong. There is a reason why the promotion was not given and even Hillier called Somalia a dark period in the Canadian military. Labbe might have been a good colonel afterward but entitled to be a general? I think not. Scott Taylor thinks it is a monetary award. It is since Labbe will never actually serve as a general. It is a parting gift at the expense of the taxpayer. Quote
Smallc Posted August 8, 2008 Report Posted August 8, 2008 Labbe might have been a good colonel afterward but entitled to be a general? I think not. And you have the credentials that put you in a position to judge that? Quote
AngusThermopyle Posted August 8, 2008 Report Posted August 8, 2008 Hillier ordered a review, and found that col Labbe's was entitled to his promotion in 2000, and it had been undully with held....The CDS was just making it right... With all due respect AG, I served under Labbe in Somalia and in all honesty he was not fit to kiss a dogs arse. Think of the worst kind of military man you can imagine and Labbe falls right into the description. And yes, he did offer a case of champagne to the first man to kill a Somali, any somali. He's nothing but a worthless waste of skin. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
jdobbin Posted August 8, 2008 Author Report Posted August 8, 2008 And you have the credentials that put you in a position to judge that? No, I trusted the credentials of the previous CDS and Defence ministers who didn't give the man a promotion in past years. Hillier only did this, it seems, because he was retiring, popular and had a sympathetic Defence minister to sign off on a deal that basically awards a colonel with a monetary going away gift. Other former military and supportive observers of the military are appalled by this promotion. So...do you still think a retroactive promotion in light of much expert criticism is warranted? Do you think it serves the taxpayer well to give a promotion as a going away gift? Quote
AngusThermopyle Posted August 8, 2008 Report Posted August 8, 2008 No, I trusted the credentials of the previous CDS and Defence ministers who didn't give the man a promotion in past years. Actually they did promote him right after the Somali mission, much to the disgust of those who were there. Once the actual facts started coming out they demoted him again. To say this man was worthy of promotion was a farce to put it mildly. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
Army Guy Posted August 11, 2008 Report Posted August 11, 2008 Angus i agree with you, But to be fair, every person in the CF is entitled to fair process. It is this process that we must defend, not the fact that Labbe was a waste of shin. It was during this process that Hillier, thought that Labbe was eligable for promotion but it was held back because of the Solimila incident....something he has been punished for already... What we do not know is what his performance reviews were like, to have even made it to the selection board means something, someone thought his performance deemed merit....but to hold him back to past mistakes, OK huge mistakes, but when do those mistakes become Paid in full....Alot of water has passed under the bridge since somolia and thier is alot we don't know about his performance after somolia.... I don't think Hillier was the type of person to hand out cash rewards to buddies, but rather a man who was correcting a wrong. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
AngusThermopyle Posted August 11, 2008 Report Posted August 11, 2008 Actually AG I agree with you. Every member is entitled to fair process. In all honesty I have to admit to a huge bias in this instance having served under the man and having observed his incompetence personally. One thing I will never forget is that truck from HQ arriving everyday to load up on fresh food while he kept the boys on "boil in a bag". He thought nothing of throwing BBQ's for the coalition leaders in Mogadishu with his own mens food, food that he was denying them. Another I have no respect for is Dallaire. It was my misfortune to serve in Rwanda under him. He can never be forgiven for deserting ten of his men and doing nothing while they were slaughtered, even though he was well aware of what was happening. Not to mention the fact that he was too gutless to tell the UN where to jam their orders and do the right thing when thousands of innocent people were being openly slaughtered. His career was far more important to him than all those lives he allowed to be taken without lifting a finger in defense of them. A true coward and political yes man if ever there was one, certainly not a soldier by any measure. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
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