DND Spending

[Army Guy]

I question everything that is presented to the public.

As you should, but then again you find it difficult when it comes to what is published by our media in regards to Afgan.

What kind of thinking, skepticism and doubt? Since when did these things need to be excused in Canada? Aren't these amongst the many things that tens of thousands of Canadians are supposed to have fought and died for

I find it kind of funney that you would use the above quote when it clearly goes again'st your stated believes.

Those men and women fought and died for a cause that was outside of Canada. Clearly Canada did take part in offensive operations to beat back a nation bent on controling it's weaker neighbours....is it that your OK with WWI and WWII and Canada's role....or is it that you've changed your objector status once again...what is it that you call it again...

[White Doors]

Not personally but they sound suspiciously like CEO's.

Sounded like Mark Emery to me.

[eyeball]

Those men and women fought and died for a cause that was outside of Canada. Clearly Canada did take part in offensive operations to beat back a nation bent on controling it's weaker neighbours....is it that your OK with WWI and WWII and Canada's role...

If people are going to continue comparing our getting involvemed in Afghanistan to our getting involved in WW 1 & 2 then its fair to question whether the reasons for getting into WW 1 & 2 were as confounded as those for getting into Afghanistan.

...or is it that you've changed your objector status once again...what is it that you call it again...

Attempting to put out fires with gasoline.

[james rahn]

If people are going to continue comparing our getting involvemed in Afghanistan to our getting involved in WW 1 & 2 then its fair to question whether the reasons for getting into WW 1 & 2 were as confounded as those for getting into Afghanistan.

So...were the reasons for getting involved in WW1 and WW2 as confounded as our reasons for getting involved in Afghanistan?

You need to clarify your position here, because if it is valid, it must be able to bear the weight of scrutiny.

The reasons don't seem confounded at all: national self-interest, plain and simple. And I think there are times when that is a valid reason.

Forgive me for being dense, sometimes I'm just not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But why -- if as you say,you question everything that is put before the public -- would you question the history of the first World War (which has borne historical scrutiny for almost a hundred years now) while at the same time coming out so powerfully for isolationism when it comes to current events in Afghanistan that have not yet been examined by history?

How can you question issues related to the first World War (almost a century ago) and concurrently be so certain regarding what's happening in Afghanistan now? It would seem a direct comparison by your own criteria between WW1 and Afghanistan should not be possible for another hundred years.

On another note, why the concern with the United States possibly invading Canada? That is the last thing that one would ever expect to happen, even with often-strained relations between the two nations. Why wouldn't you take a lesson from history here? It seems world events would show that as being almost impossible: if the US&A and coalition forces still haven't been able to put down the insurgency in a nation the size of Iraq, how on earth would they manage to occupy a nation with the land mass of Canada?

You seem to be fairly articulate but your arguments are weak, and because of that you are coming across as cynical, which is the antithesis of open-mindedness.

cheers

Edited January 22, 2008 by james rahn

[jdobbin]

The first announcements of who lands contracts from Lockheed and Boeing was announced today.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...cts-quebec.html

Quebec companies will benefit from $660 million in aerospace contracts, the federal government announced Monday.

The money is coming from U.S. giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin, who were awarded two major contracts to build planes for the Canadian Forces. In exchange for the contracts, both companies have agreed to ultimately invest 100 per cent of the contract value back into the Canadian economy.

The military signed its deal with Boeing in February 2007 — giving the company $1.5 billion to build and maintain four heavy-lift cargo planes. Lockheed Martin was awarded a $1.4-billion contract last week to provide the military with 17 Hercules transport planes.

Of the $660 million in contracts announced Monday, $420 million will come from Boeing and $240 million from Lockheed.

One of the major Quebec beneficiaries is RTI Claro, a company based in Laval, north of Montreal. Boeing has given RTI a $346-million contract to supply titanium and aluminum components for the company's 787 Dreamliner planes.

We'll have to see if the bulk of the contracts go to Quebec but will be announced over time so that they hope no one notices.

[M.Dancer]

The first announcements of who lands contracts from Lockheed and Boeing was announced today.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...cts-quebec.html

We'll have to see if the bulk of the contracts go to Quebec but will be announced over time so that they hope no one notices.

So Bomabradier did okay anyway?

The bulk will go to PQ because that's where the bulk of te industry is. This was true under the Grits and it is true under the Tories.

[Army Guy]

eyeball:

If people are going to continue comparing our getting involvemed in Afghanistan to our getting involved in WW 1 & 2 then its fair to question whether the reasons for getting into WW 1 & 2 were as confounded as those for getting into Afghanistan

.

Actually it was brought up by you, as you made ref to it in the quote below.... ...oh all see one...

What kind of thinking, skepticism and doubt? Since when did these things need to be excused in Canada? Aren't these amongst the many things that tens of thousands of Canadians are supposed to have fought and died for?

[jdobbin]

So Bomabradier did okay anyway?

The bulk will go to PQ because that's where the bulk of te industry is. This was true under the Grits and it is true under the Tories.

66% of the industry exists elsewhere in the country. That is true under the Grits and it is true under the Tories.

One of the reasons the PCs self-destructed is when they tried to put all of the aerospace industry in Quebec even when it defied technical and money reasons.

[M.Dancer]

66% of the industry exists elsewhere in the country. That is true under the Grits and it is true under the Tories.

Wrong.

Nearly two-thirds of Canada's aerospace companies are located in Quebec and they had lobbied fiercely to get Ottawa to guarantee that 55 to 60 per cent of the economic spinoffs from the deal came to the province.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/02/03/boeing-quebec.html

[jdobbin]

Wrong.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/02/03/boeing-quebec.html

Depends on who you ask.

I've seen 44% and 54%.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m105...113/ai_12391667

Aerospace - Quebec's $3 billion aerospace industry, accounting for 44 percent of aerospace production in Canada, is the most dynamic and vertically integrated of the five competitive clusters. Fixed-wing aircraft, helicopters, engines, turbines, navigation equipment, communications systems, landing systems, satellites, ground maintenance equipment, ground communications systems, and precision parts are all manufactured in Quebec. Industry leaders, including Bombardier/ Canadair, Bell helicopters, Spar aerospace, and Pratt and whitney, either manufacture or assemble in the Montreal region. Bombardier's recent acquisition of De Havilland in Ontario has established Bombardier as a world leader in the regional jet market.

Here is what Ontario says:

http://www.2ontario.com/industry/aerospace.asp

They have a pie chart that says Quebec has 47% of the industry.

So if Quebec gets 60% of the contracts or more like they did under the PCs, I think other provinces will have something to say.

Edited January 22, 2008 by jdobbin

[Jerry J. Fortin]

This nation should either crap or get off the pot. I grow weary of governments that make a lot of noise but cower when the bullets fly.

WE need to either build an armed force capable of doing the job the government tells them to do or scrape the idea of even having a military force.

[M.Dancer]

Depends on who you ask.

I've seen 44% and 54%.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m105...113/ai_12391667

Here is what Ontario says:

http://www.2ontario.com/industry/aerospace.asp

They have a pie chart that says Quebec has 47% of the industry.

So if Quebec gets 60% of the contracts or more like they did under the PCs, I think other provinces will have something to say.

]Actually it doesn't depend on who you ask, it depends on what you ask. Counting hangglidder repairs in BC might add revenue in the dollar column, but it doesn't mean that the industry is larger there.

Quebec has always had the larger commecial aerospace industry, which means the ifrastructure and human resources.

[M.Dancer]

They have a pie chart that says Quebec has 47% of the industry.

No the pie chart says they have 47% of the jobs.

Montréal - Aerospace

Montréal's aerospace technology cluster — one of the most vibrant anywhere in the world — ships more than $10 billion of product a year. The cluster's business activities account for 95 percent of Quebec's astonishing success in the aerospace industry and 55 percent of Canada's total activity in this lucrative sector. The industry comprises roughly 170 private companies and employs more than 35,000 people.

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/aboutUs/corporat...montreal_e.html

I take it the new liberal strategy, knowing Quebec has truned their backs on them, is to piss on Quebec? That should work in Alberta...I can see the ads now...

"Hey you, rrred neck albertan, you 'ate quebec comme moi? Gardez moi, I pees on Quebec, donc? Votez Dion"

[jdobbin]

]Actually it doesn't depend on who you ask, it depends on what you ask. Counting hangglidder repairs in BC might add revenue in the dollar column, but it doesn't mean that the industry is larger there.

Quebec has always had the larger commecial aerospace industry, which means the ifrastructure and human resources.

I don't think the aerospace industry association counts hang glider repairs. I just checked and they don't. I think if there any figure I am going to believe, it is theirs since they are the industry spokesman.

http://www.aiac.ca/cai.asp

Edited January 22, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

No the pie chart says they have 47% of the jobs.

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/aboutUs/corporat...montreal_e.html

I take it the new liberal strategy, knowing Quebec has truned their backs on them, is to piss on Quebec? That should work in Alberta...I can see the ads now...

"Hey you, rrred neck albertan, you 'ate quebec comme moi? Gardez moi, I pees on Quebec, donc? Votez Dion"

You are correct about the pie chart.

What my main concern is that areas of the country that do have an aerospace industry are going to be left out just as they were in the PC era.

I'd be very concerned if total contracts awarded to Quebec rose up to the level of 70% or more as they did during the days when the PCs were in government. In fact, in one case with the CF-18, they awarded 100% of the contract to Quebec despite the fact that Bombardier lost on specs and money.

Is it the goal of the Tories to piss off Albertans again?

As I said, I have read anywhere from 44 to 55% (with the numbers you produced) is in Quebec. The Tories seem to indicate that they think 60% or more of the industry is in Quebec according to the news conference. We have seen that when it comes to this type of thinking, it is places like Manitoba that get squeezed despite the fact that the largest Boeing plant in Canada is in Winnipeg.

[M.Dancer]

I don't think the aerospace industry association counts hang glider repairs. I just checked and they don't. I think if there any figure I am going to believe, it is theirs since they are the industry spokesman.

http://www.aiac.ca/cai.asp

And where are their figures?

[jdobbin]

And where are their figures?

They provide their stats to Statistics Canada in industry surveys.

This was the 2002 report. I don't don't know what their 2007 figures are because you have to pay to access them on their site.

http://www.innovationstrategy.gc.ca/gol/in...en/in02566.html

By province, Québec accounts for 54% of national aerospace and defence output. Ontario is second at 30.7%, followed by the Atlantic provinces 4.6%, Manitoba 4.4%, British Columbia 4.2%, and Alberta and Saskatchewan 2.1%.

At the 2006 airshow in Farnborough, the Quebec aerospace indsutry was saying their industry accounted for a little more than 50% of aerospace in Canada.

http://www.ainonline.com/airshow-conventio...ry_pointer%5D=1

According to the Quebec Aerospace Association (AQA-Association Quebeçoise de l’Aerospatiale), as of January 1, 45,063 people were working in 243 companies in the province’s aerospace industry, most of them in the greater Montreal area. The province boasts one of the biggest concentrations of aerospace activity, with its biggest city among the world’s top international aerospace centers, alongside Seattle, Toulouse and Wichita.

Quebec accounts for more than 50 percent of Canada’s aerospace activity.

I get a little nervous when I hear that 2/3 of the contracts might end up in Quebec. That 5 to 7% difference is the difference between the prairies getting a contract and not getting one.

[M.Dancer]

They provide their stats to Statistics Canada in industry surveys.

This was the 2002 report. I don't don't know what their 2007 figures are because you have to pay to access them on their site.

http://www.innovationstrategy.gc.ca/gol/in...en/in02566.html

At the 2006 airshow in Farnborough, the Quebec aerospace indsutry was saying their industry accounted for a little more than 50% of aerospace in Canada.

http://www.ainonline.com/airshow-conventio...ry_pointer%5D=1

I get a little nervous when I hear that 2/3 of the contracts might end up in Quebec. That 5 to 7% difference is the difference between the prairies getting a contract and not getting one.

Very few of the non ontario or Quebec comapnies are CAE, Bombardier or Spar ....they are subcontractors....

Once again, Montreal alone accounts for 55% of Canada's activity...not employment...but business.

Montréal - Aerospace

Montréal's aerospace technology cluster — one of the most vibrant anywhere in the world — ships more than $10 billion of product a year. The cluster's business activities account for 95 percent of Quebec's astonishing success in the aerospace industry and 55 percent of Canada's total activity in this lucrative sector. The industry comprises roughly 170 private companies and employs more than 35,000 people.

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/aboutUs/corporat...montreal_e.html

Over 60% of Canada's aerospace industry is based in the province of Quebec. It encompasses 240 firms currently employing 40,000 workers. All major components of aircraft building can be found in a 25-mile radius of Montreal. Montreal is Quebec’s largest city and Canada’s second metropolis after Toronto. Montreal is among the world's three major centers for aerospace, along with Seattle and Toulouse, France.

http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:wsKja...;cd=4&gl=ca

[jdobbin]

Very few of the non ontario or Quebec comapnies are CAE, Bombardier or Spar ....they are subcontractors....

Once again, Montreal alone accounts for 55% of Canada's activity...not employment...but business.

Sounds like the prairies are about to get screwed again according to what you are saying. It doesn't matter if the specs are better, the bid is lower, there will always be a reason to not award contracts to the west.

Manitoba has been screwed in the aerospace industry for decades from Diefenbaker on. He was the one who moved Air Canada's head office out of Winnipeg.

Edited January 22, 2008 by jdobbin

[M.Dancer]

Sounds like the prairies are about to get screwed again according to what you are saying. It doesn't matter if the specs are better, the bid is lower, there will always be a reason to not award contracts to the west.

Manitoba has been screwed in the aerospace industry for decades from Diefenbaker on. He was the one who moved Air Canada's head office out of Winnipeg.

According to your aerospace link, manitoba has 2 member companies, only one does large engine maintenance.. Alberta has 2, one is a division of Spar which means they would get some pie anyway.

[jdobbin]

According to your aerospace link, manitoba has 2 member companies, only one does large engine maintenance.. Alberta has 2, one is a division of Spar which means they would get some pie anyway.

Many of the Manitoba companies are under the umbrella of the Manitoba Aerospace Association which is a member of the national body.

Air Canada Technical Services has its second largest maintenance base in Winnipeg.

Boeing has its largest plant in Canada in Winnipeg.

Bristol Aerospace was the company that lost the CF-18 contract to Bombardier.

Standard Aero is one of the largest companies in the world for engine maintenance.

http://www.gov.mb.ca/trade/globaltrade/aer...tory/index.html

The last time the Tories were in power, they moved 100% of the major contract on CF-18s to Quebec. A year or so after that, they lost four seats in Winnipeg as a result. And let's not forget about the founding of the Reform party.

Manitoba accounts for 4% of the industry according to Statistics Canada. Whenever the Tories need to win seats in Quebec, they have sacrificed Manitoba.

Edited January 22, 2008 by jdobbin

[M.Dancer]

Manitoba accounts for 4% of the industry according to Statistics Canada. Whenever the Tories need to win seats in Quebec, they have sacrificed Manitoba.

So chances are they will get 4%.....move on to the next fake outrage

[jdobbin]

Here is the announcement of the Atlantic contracts.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0122?hub=Canada

Two aerospace giants are committing to provide more than $290 million in contracts to Atlantic Canadian firms to help build and maintain Canada's new fleet of military transport planes.

Lockheed Martin and Boeing made the announcement Tuesday at the IMP hangar near Halifax.

"These significant investments are a sign of confidence in the talent and abilities of our region's businesses, which have demonstrated that they have what it takes to become part of Boeing's and Lockheed Martin's global supply chains," Defence Minister Peter MacKay said in a news release.

Lockheed Martin is committing to spend $242 million in the region, for work linked to the 17 C-130J Super Hercules.

Boeing is to spend $52 million on Atlantic firms for work on four C-17 Globemaster III transport planes.

Companies expected to win contracts include IMP Group, Northstar Network and Wiebel Aerospace.

Memorial University in St. John's, N.L., is also expected to receive research work.

I have no idea what that will be as an overall percentage.

Edited January 22, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

So chances are they will get 4%.....move on to the next fake outrage

That certainly hasn't been the case with past Tory governments. And the outrage ended up destroying the PCs.

[M.Dancer]

That certainly hasn't been the case with past Tory governments. And the outrage ended up destroying the PCs.

Har!....yeah that was the issue that sunk them.....