Higgly Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 In 1932-33, Joseph Stalin embarked on a pogrom of collectivization in the Ukraine. Russia has always had designs on the Ukraine, in the same way that China has designs on Tibet. The fact that the Ukraine is now a separate country speaks to the opinion of the people of the Ukraine on the matter. Up until 1932 the farms of the Ukraine (often called the breadbasket of eastern Europe) were privately owned by the people who farmed them. Stalin decided that they should be owned by the state - more specifically by his state. Understandably, Ukrainian farmers were not interested. In order to force collectivization on the Ukraine, Stalin moved a massive troop presence into the Ukraine and seized the entire 1932 harvest. Farmers who refused to give up their harvest were executed. Anybody who was found to be hoarding food was executed. The result was a massive starvation in which millions of people died. Estimates vary widely from 4 million to 12 million but, as Kruschev later commented, "Nobody was counting." To this day, Russia denies that this ever happened, saying that the starvation was due to a "poor harvest". A significant reason that the Russians have gotten away for this for so long is that the only credible western journalist covering Eastern Europe at the time, Pulitzer Prize winner Walter Duranty of the New York Times, denied in print that any such starvation was occurring. At the same time, he was admitting privately that up to 50,000 people a day were dying at the height of the starvation. The Ukrainian community has long campaigned to have Duranty's Pulitzer Prize cancelled for this calumny, but without success. A National Review article on the subject can be found here Many Canadians escaped the fate of their families in the Ukraine because they responded to a 1920s Canadian government immigration campaign to populate and make productive the prairies. These people soon found themselves in the dustbowl of the depression. It is amazing to note today that the depression was a better fate than that which awaited their friends and family at the hands of Joseph Stalin. While Hitler is deservedly depicted as a murderous animal, more attention needs be paid to Stalin, not only for this, but for the many other things he did that cost the lives of millions of people. Stalin may go down in history as the greatest murderer who ever existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Stalin may go down in history as the greatest murderer who ever existed. If we count the casualties of the European portion of WW2, Hitler still wins hands-down. As for Stalin, a reading of the two Gulag Archipelagos gives a very detailed account of his crimes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence. ---Alexander Solzhenitsyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 If we count the casualties of the European portion of WW2, Hitler still wins hands-down. OK. Give us your numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Many Canadians escaped the fate of their families in the Ukraine because they responded to a 1920s Canadian government immigration campaign to populate and make productive the prairies. These people soon found themselves in the dustbowl of the depression. It is amazing to note today that the depression was a better fate than that which awaited their friends and family at the hands of Joseph Stalin. Better than the 5,000 or so Ukrainians interned during WWI by Canada's War Measures Act too. Some were still locked up more than two years after the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 OK. Give us your numbers. My numbers? ----------------------------------------- ...bed goes up...bed goes down...bed goes up...bed goes down... ---Homer Simpson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Right. Too bad this is threatening to turn into a thread about whether Stalin or Hitler was the bigger murderer. How about if we decide to debate that point in another thread so that the important issue (the mass murder of millions of Ukrainians for a political purpose and its subsequent cover-up) is front and centre? Hmmmm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 OK...let's talk about Stalin. He was so bad that the Ukrainians were ready to join the Nazis upon their arrival. When the regular army units arrived, they were greated as liberators as crowds of Ukrainians lined the Wehrmacht's route. Many did join. Many others met a cruel fate as the SS arrived on the scene to deal with the Jews and other undesireables. However, Stalin was at least just in his oppression. He hated many other groups with equal passion. ---------------------------------------------------- One man with a gun can control 100 without one. ---Vladimir Lenin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 (edited) He was so bad that the Ukrainians were ready to join the Nazis upon their arrival. Again we have an attempt to deflect the discussion. I will respond to this, but only once, and then I'd like you to leave this thread because you clearly have some sort of agenda. If Stalin murdered everybody you know, and Hitler showed up and started a war against Stalin, what would you do? I cannot stop you from participating in this thread, but you are clearly trying to hijack it. Edited November 25, 2007 by Higgly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 It's just a fact that the Ukrainians in general were pretty happy to see the Germans...they weren't aware of the horror that was to follow as the SS arrived to do their dirty work. It's also a fact that many Ukrainians did end up working for the Nazis. But it's also a fact that many high-tailed it for the forests where they conducted a very effective partisan campaign against the Axis invaders. I hope that clears things up. If you're Ukrainian-Canadian, then we have a common bond as I'm of Volga-German heritage...look up on google what Stalin did to them. -------------------------------------------------- Arithmetic is being able to count up to twenty without taking off your shoes. ---Mickey Mouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 It's just a fact that the Ukrainians in general were pretty happy to see the Germans...they weren't aware of the horror that was to follow as the SS arrived to do their dirty work. It's also a fact that many Ukrainians did end up working for the Nazis. But it's also a fact that many high-tailed it for the forests where they conducted a very effective partisan campaign against the Axis invaders.I hope that clears things up. If you're Ukrainian-Canadian, then we have a common bond as I'm of Volga-German heritage...look up on google what Stalin did to them. Fine. Why do you keep trying to deflect this discussion? Leave the thread. Now. Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 The intellectual left of the west refused to believe that their hero Stalin was a mass murder. Even today the left will try and deflect the horrors of that regime and change the subject. as to who was worse, Stalin or Hitler! Adolf was a rookie at being a mass muder` compared to Uncle Joe. But Uncle Joe may not in reality be the worst. Will we ever know how many Mao murdered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 The intellectual left of the west refused to believe that their hero Stalin was a mass murder. Even today the left will try and deflect the horrors of that regime and change the subject. as to who was worse, Stalin or Hitler! Adolf was a rookie at being a mass muder` compared to Uncle Joe. But Uncle Joe may not in reality be the worst. Will we ever know how many Mao murdered? I doubt the left still feels that way, but I agree that Mao too is in the club. The "Great Leap Forward" and the "Cultural Revolution" put Pol Pot to shame. But back to the Ukrainians.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMT Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 In 1932-33, Joseph Stalin embarked on a pogrom of collectivization in the Ukraine... The fact that the Ukraine is now a separate country speaks to the opinion of the people of the Ukraine on the matter... A significant reason that the Russians have gotten away for this for so long is that the only credible western journalist covering Eastern Europe at the time, Pulitzer Prize winner Walter Duranty of the New York Times, denied in print that any such starvation was occurring... No wonder that Russia'a officialls still deny it. Putin's Russia is naturally recognized as a heir of Soviet estate. With all the consequencies. Besides they treat their own people not better than people of Ukraine. Population of Russia is srinking by more than 1 million a year. It's happening now. Why would you expect an apology for the past if they're still doing these bad things now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 In 1932-33, Joseph Stalin embarked on a pogrom of collectivization in the Ukraine. Russia has always had designs on the Ukraine, in the same way that China has designs on Tibet. The fact that the Ukraine is now a separate country speaks to the opinion of the people of the Ukraine on the matter.Great post. I wish other people who support "progressive" forces would come to understand that Communism is a force for bad rather than good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcinmoka Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Great post. I wish other people who support "progressive" forces would come to understand that Communism is a force for bad rather than good. Reminds me of scene from "Les Invasions Barbares", by Dennis Arkand, where a group of intellectuals sit around, discussing the plethora of "bonafide" causes and intellectual movements they took up, one of which, was communism....that is, until the apparition of Sholtzenitzyn's work which painted the socialist experiment in a less than flattering depiction. Only than, did they move on to the next intello' flavour of the week. ------------------------------ My numbers? I must admit, I still am quite curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Great post. I wish other people who support "progressive" forces would come to understand that Communism is a force for bad rather than good. All one has to do is look at how many countrys that have gone Communist have flourished with human rights being the greatest priority! There is ,uh , ummm ... hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Leave the thread. Now. Please. What is your problem? Mellow out...you'll live longer. My numbers? I must admit, I still am quite curious. Comparing Hitler to Stalin is a bit like comparing Verdun to The Somme...neither are particularly nice results. However...as I stated...if one takes into account all the battle casualties of the European theater of operations...including the War in Russia...the various civilian casualties...then add the Holocaust...I believe you'll find the numbers of dead piled up around Hitler's feet to be rather larger than Stalin's. This means nothing of course as Stalin's own quote comes into play.... 'A single death is a tragedy...a million deaths is a statistic.' A great off-beat web-site about The Ukraine. You might have seen it... http://www.elenafilatova.com/ ---------------------------------------------------- Scratch a Russian, and you'll find a peasant. ---Milla Jovovich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Great post. I wish other people who support "progressive" forces would come to understand that Communism is a force for bad rather than good. Was it Communism or was it Stalin? I'd say Stalin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Was it Communism or was it Stalin? I'd say Stalin. My Ukrainian mother tried to stuff blades of grass in her fathers mouth to keep him alive - this huge Christian holocausts is ignored..The jews get theirs - why can I not have mine - being the child of survivors of this horror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMT Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Was it Communism or was it Stalin? I'd say Stalin. What's the difference? Stalin was communist number one for many years. And in mind of many communists he's still the one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 What's the difference? Stalin was communist number one for many years. And in mind of many communists he's still the one. Hope no one is offended by this - Stalin was an idiot. He killed anyone that he considered more clever - more creative - more intelligent - or more handsome..if that is a definition of a communist..to degrade society in order to elevate ones self - we don't need that...Sadam thought he was Stalin incarnate not to mention being a Babylonian god..I have said this before - give a dumb and vicious animal power and the first thing this human mutant will do to gain superiourity is to kill it's superiours - that is communism - and socialism - but socialism is more creeping and more incrimental in it's kinder murdering of the intelligensia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Without the communist economic ideas that were enforced on the Kulacks...there would be no famine....whether Stalin or Trotsky...the effect would have been the same, a hideous evil social economic experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Even today the left will try and deflect the horrors of that regime and change the subject. If it hasn't become apparent already, my number one pet peeve about this board is the number of posters that are compelled to toss out silly allegations about what "the left" thinks, feels or does without any qualification or quantification. For Christ's sake, people, if you're going to make stupid generalizations, at least put a little effort into supporting it. Make up an anecdote if you have to, just do something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Left leaning Commies always make excuses for brutal killers like Stalin. Ten countries, including the US reconize the Ukrainain famine as "Genocide". Canada does not. Did he plan to kill them? Historians can't prove it but the evidence available points to him using the famine as a way to to force the collectivization of the peasants. He was an evil man, those that died estimate between three million to ten million. A real hero, NOT. Hitler and Stalin were the same coin, just different sides of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Hope no one is offended by this - Stalin was an idiot. Stalin was a lot of things...idiot wasn't one of them. Though Trotsky and his followers thought him an idiot as well...they were all proven wrong. Trotsky in a very dramatic fashion. Stalin did the dirty work that none of the other Bolsheviks wanted to do. His gangster-like powers grew in proportion to this dirty work. How he made the post of General Secretary a vehicle for this growth in strength is a graphic example of this. He was also a master of playing his various opponents off against one another. His move to use both Zinoviev and Kamenev to remove Trotsky then use their opponents to remove them was typical of his cleverness. Stalin did do one good thing for us, though. He didn't flee Moscow in Nov 1941 with the Wehrmacht at the gates...which arguably would have put the Red Army into a total rout. Instead he took a big risk (thanks to the work of his spy in Tokyo who learned of the Pearl Harbor operation) and moved troops from Siberia (where they faced the Japanese Army) to the front around Moscow where they conducted the Soviet Union's first major counter-attack. Had he not done this, the Soviet Union would probably have fallen freeing up the hundreds of Axis divisions/squadrons for operations in other theaters. Thanks, Uncle Joe...for that, anyways. Did he plan to kill them? I'd have to say "of course". He long distrusted the Ukrainians and their latent nationalism. Anyone ever see Robert Duvall in 'Stalin'? I thought he did a creepily well done job. It covered a lot of Stalin's rise to power, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQo5d1Ee6LA ------------------------------------------------ The Russian people are suffering from economic fatigue and from disillusionment with the Allies! The world thinks the Russian Revolution is at an end. Do not be mistaken. The Russian Revolution is just beginning. ---Alexander Kerensky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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