Dion Lays Out Anti-Poverty Plan

[Pliny]

If Dion implements policies with the fervor and conviction he did as the Minister of the Environment to reach our Kyoto goals, then he has my vote. I prefer that politicians do nothing.

It seems that when they promise to eliminate social problems it only means government growth, a worsening of the problem and the development of the concept of entitlement, confusing and blurring and finally elevating any entitlement as a human right. Dion's record shows that none of this will happen.

[Topaz]

How many politicians really know what its like to live in poverty??? I think some of the NDP and some in the Libs but I don't know about the Cons side. What is the difference from province to province as far as welfare goes? I know in Ontario, its called Ontario Works, were a person has to prove they need welfare to get shelter but there are conditions, they have to be looking for work, have to attention meeting , writing resumes, go to interviews for jobs that OW sends them. They don't get alot of money, a single person gets something like 590.00 and that depending where you live , and it may not pay your rent and so you have to go to the food bank and some of them are only monthly help. What I think really needs to happen is strong programs to get people more education or update their education. Perhaps we need to change the way we teach high school, bring it in to the 21 century. I'm sure others on this forum could come up with better ideas to prevent people not have to chose welfare. I don't think though, a country can have 100% employment, do you?

[Drea]

Topaz, it's pretty much the same here in BC. They call it social assistance.

Where I live there are lots of organizations that will assist a person to find employment.

Government assitance isn't meant to pay well. It's meant to be a stop-gap feature that gets one through the hard times.

If we paid a single person enough to live moderately comfy on many would choose it over working. As it is, even the lowest paid jobs pay better than social assistance for a single person (those with kids are a whole different topic).

[trex]

Oh yeah, what a leader . I am not supporting the Liberals until he's gone or he really changes.

Why, when he has been undermined every step of the way. Just because he's not a movie star good looking guy like Harper, and speaks english poorly, that does not mean he's stupid. So he has these fairly trivial flaws, perhaps we just need to get over that. But what he needs to do is talk about issues and here is one example. Lets just say if he could come up with more like this it could change my mind about him.

He was chosen over Ignatieff and others, and was recommended by Cretien. As a leader he may simply be the more intellectual type, as pposed to a shomanship style of bluff and obfuscattion. Do not let the media glam of polkitics influence you, known as US- Hollywood style. Beatuful people do not always make good leaders, simply because they dazzle.

I know it's a long shot with this guy, as someone said, his spark is too few and far between. If I were him I woul put Ignatieff in the closet for a while, make it clear whos the top dog. At least move him one row back. Let Dion sit in the front all by himself, and speak only french if necessary, so long as he make sense!

Somebody needs to make sense... among these parliamentarians

[Moxie]

I think he will soon be calling for a campaign against inflation by instituting wage and price freezes and then proposing a special commision on the status of women.

Ah Jebus say it isn't so, I'm so sick of millions being given to a defunked group like SOW who state they represent "Women" well they don't represent me they repulse me. Doing studies on Women and terrorism, give me a break we aren't Palestine where slimy cowardly men hide under womens crotches. I would love to see that funding go to the Mentally Ill. Cut these SOWs or pigs off NOW.

So where is the Poverty in Canada? Single mothers who choose to have six kids by different fathers, but they aren't sure who daddy is because they like to sleep around? Please enlighten me where Poverty exist in Canada? Those who are suffering did choose it as a"Life Style" choice, so I must pay for their personal choices? So Dion wants to make me pay more for a "Personal Lifestyle Choice" oh far left can you hear me? Get out of me purse, I'm sick of paying for your tender sensibilities why don't you pick up the tab for a change. Lazy immigrants and a hoeing lifestyle is now a priority of the Liberals, Socialism at it's finest.

[old_bold&cold]

Why, when he has been undermined every step of the way. Just because he's not a movie star good looking guy like Harper, and speaks english poorly, that does not mean he's stupid. So he has these fairly trivial flaws, perhaps we just need to get over that. But what he needs to do is talk about issues and here is one example. Lets just say if he could come up with more like this it could change my mind about him.

Well you have now just made me think you are in the tinfoil hat group. Harper and movie star looks are not words that beong in the same sentence. As for his ability to spek english goes, his english is better then my french but I do not understand either language of his. He definitely has no charm, but he also has no idea of how to lead and how to take a stand. Sorry, but if you support Dion, I feel you must be out of your mind.

He was chosen over Ignatieff and others, and was recommended by Chretien. As a leader he may simply be the more intellectual type, as pposed to a showmanship style of bluff and obfuscattion. Do not let the media glam of politics influence you, known as US- Hollywood style. Beatuful people do not always make good leaders, simply because they dazzle.

I think you need to take a look at things and not read too much of Hollywood hype for actors, because it does not transfer well in politics. Agin read my answer above.

I know it's a long shot with this guy, as someone said, his spark is too few and far between. If I were him I woul put Ignatieff in the closet for a while, make it clear whos the top dog. At least move him one row back. Let Dion sit in the front all by himself, and speak only french if necessary, so long as he make sense!

Somebody needs to make sense... among these parliamentarians

Dion can do what ever he thinks will work for him. As far as Iggy goes I do not see him being the leader if Dion fails. The last leadership race all the top people sat out as they all wanted to distance them selves from Chretian times, but the next race I think will have Goodale running and probably John Manley. Iggy will not even be a front runner in that and he probably will announce his return to the USA University teaching positions, where he should have stayed any way.

[Smallc]

...but the next race I think will have Goodale running...

I certainly hope so. Goodale does an excellent job in question period and to me that is the test of a person with leadership and presentation skills. I think he would do very well. And to the post you were replying to, it has nothing to do with english skills. Chretien was a master politician and in many ways a leader, and we all know how well he spoke.

[Moxie]

Could someone please explain who's suffering from "Poverty"? We have generous welfare programs, to generous because they stay on it for a lift time in NS. We have disability, The Compensation Board, UI, parental leave, the list of social programs is endless so who is living in "Poverty"? The homeless choose to live on the streets to feed an addiction and the youth want to partyyyyyyyyyy hardy thus they live on the streets instead of their bedrooms at home. They don't like rules and restrictions. The only true victim of poverty that I'm aware of is the Mentally Ill, we shut down institutions and small option homes in the name of "Diversity" and "Compassion" but these people can't 'function outside of a controlled environment. Giving them disability checks was the by far the most stupid idea ever to hail from the Civil Service.

Poverty, where and whom?

[Smallc]

Could someone please explain who's suffering from "Poverty"? We have generous welfare programs, to generous because they stay on it for a lift time in NS. We have disability, The Compensation Board, UI, parental leave, the list of social programs is endless so who is living in "Poverty"? The homeless choose to live on the streets to feed an addiction and the youth want to partyyyyyyyyyy hardy thus they live on the streets instead of their bedrooms at home. They don't like rules and restrictions. The only true victim of poverty that I'm aware of is the Mentally Ill, we shut down institutions and small option homes in the name of "Diversity" and "Compassion" but these people can't 'function outside of a controlled environment. Giving them disability checks was the by far the most stupid idea ever to hail from the Civil Service.

Poverty, where and whom?

You try getting by on social assistance, then tell me about poverty. What we really need though, is more programs to tach people how to manage their money. I think that would help a great deal.

[Moxie]

What does not make sense to me Smallc is that Social Agencies enforce ridget rules to punish those on a barely livable income from earning a livable income? In NS a welfare recipient can only earn 2000 a year, instead of allowing them to work at a full time min wage job and still receive full benifits. Why aren't these agencies updating their programs to make them progressive. A single male in Canada receives 8000 a year on disablity, gross, to survive. How can anyone survive on this? I'd like to see programs in place that encourage people on Social Programs to get into the work force without losing their core benifits. I have no problem allowing them to get full benifits for five years if they work full time. This will allow them to establish an employment history. After five years they should of moved up the pay scale in the service sector to be weened of benifits. It's if the Social Agencies want to keep them on assistance.

[Keepitsimple]

What does not make sense to me Smallc is that Social Agencies enforce ridget rules to punish those on a barely livable income from earning a livable income?

Moxie - that's exactly the point. Barely liveable is not poverty! It's tough - very tough - but it's not poverty. It's "barely liveable" because Canada's Social Safety net will not allow anybody to simply die on the street - unless they choose to.

[jdobbin]

That is the problem with the LICO that poverty groups use: it is a relative measure that ensures that there will always be a certain percentage of people living in 'poverty'. Promising to eliminate 'poverty' is impossible unless Dion is willing to adopt an absolute definition of poverty. For some reason I do not think he is willing to do that.

Canada is the only nation in the OECD that doesn't define what the poverty line is. Dion brought that up himself in the speech and said that is why he and others are left with no other choice but to use the LICO after tax numbers.

I certainly didn't see him opposing a definition of poverty in Canada.

I'd be happy if we could actually say what poverty is in Canada. Many on the right seem to ridicule the whole idea of poverty and say it is a choice. It would help if we actually put some numbers to the poverty definition.

Edited November 12, 2007 by jdobbin

[M.Dancer]

I will agree that there are those who live barely one day at a time and It is a national shame.

Those in that bracket are almost exclusively senior citizens. Any anti-poverty initive thatdoesn't address first and foremost senior citizens is a waste. They are the only ones who can do very little to pull themselves out of poverty, while just about everyone else can be addressed by either a fostering a vibrant economy and personal tax cuts.

[Keepitsimple]

I will agree that there are those who live barely one day at a time and It is a national shame.

Those in that bracket are almost exclusively senior citizens. Any anti-poverty initive thatdoesn't address first and foremost senior citizens is a waste. They are the only ones who can do very little to pull themselves out of poverty, while just about everyone else can be addressed by either a fostering a vibrant economy and personal tax cuts.

That's a good point. Sometimes I miss the forest because those darn trees keep getting in the way. Seniors - especially single or widowed, who don't have a nest egg, pension, or CPP - are trapped in poverty and CAN'T do anything about it.....and I would imagine that there are quite a few. It doesn't really matter how many - it's just not right. I think you'll find that the Conservatives are trying to address this because it's part of being a Conservative - to help those who truly cannot help themselves. I'll be disappointed if the Feds don't continue to build on their recent announcements:

Today, on the International Day of Older Persons, the Honourable Marjory LeBreton, Secretary of State for Seniors, and the Honourable John Baird, Minister of the Environment, announced funding that will improve the lives of seniors.

The New Horizons for Seniors Program encourages seniors to become active in local communities, tackles elder abuse and fraud, and improves the quality of life, safety and security of seniors.

Today’s announcement builds upon the work of Canada’s New Government to improve the lives of seniors, including:

Allowing pension income splitting for senior couples;

Raising the age credit amount by $1,000 to $5,066;

Doubling the pension income credit to $2,000;

Removing 85,000 pensioners from the tax rolls entirely; and

Creating a National Seniors Council.

This announcement is another positive example of how our Government is showing to Canadian seniors that actions speak louder than words. By increasing awareness of elder abuse and fraud, Canada’s New Government is reaching out to remind seniors of these risks, and also to encourage them to speak out.

Link: http://www.gordonoconnor.ca/EN/government_...ne_for_seniors/

[sharkman]

This is a duplicate thread but I'll say it again. By Dion's own measurement, "poverty" has gone from 16% to 11% in the past ten years - and that includes anybody who filed a tax return - First Nations. people under 21 (and as young as 15 years old), and the 40,000 refugees who arrive in Canada each and every year with only the clothes on their back. The Poverty Industry - led by socialists on the far left - have a vested interest in exagerrating and inflating dubiously defined poverty statistics - similar to how the Gay Rights brigade drummed us with stats that said that Homosexuals and their ilk made up anywhere from 10 to 20% of the population. It's common practice to create a "crisis" to gain attention, but since we've supposedly "reduced poverty" by 30% in the past 10 years - where exactly is the crisis? This reduction doesn't even include 06 and 07 which probably reduces it substantiually more because of the booming economy and low unemployment. There is an issue - not a crisis, and it's an ongoing one - how do we balance providing support for the neediest without taking away the initiative to take personal responsibility and achieve the dignity of supportting one self? This issue will never go away completely. The only crisis is that the Liberal Party wants the votes of all the hand-wringers who won't acknowledge that Canada already has a support system that catches almost everyone who has an inclination to help themselves. As someone else said, there will ALWAYS be "the 10% poorest Canadians". The whole gambit seemsw to be a ploy to shore up the Liberals bleeding left flank - but in doing so, Dion stands to lose support from the center as he moves farther to the left.

Very well said, Dion is merely trying to fabricate a crisis where none exists. In the poor nations of the world, people would kill to live at Canada's poverty levels. They would try to move here even. Joining relatives who would help to bring them over, then line up for our social assistance programs. Any of this ringing a bell?

Yes we have the poor, but those numbers have been falling the last ten years, once again, Dion picks the wrong issue at the wrong time.

[capricorn]

There is a possibility that Dion's poverty agenda, as flawed as it is, may win over some disenchanted NDP supporters. I don't see his plan appealing to any Conservatives as it is too much to the left for them.

[M.Dancer]

There is a possibility that Dion's poverty agenda, as flawed as it is, may win over some disenchanted NDP supporters. I don't see his plan appealing to any Conservatives as it is too much to the left for them.

Between the Libs poaching on the right, and the Greens poaching on the left, the only place Layton and the NDP might have a chance for new support is in southern Afghanistan....

[Smallc]

There is a possibility that Dion's poverty agenda, as flawed as it is, may win over some disenchanted NDP supporters. I don't see his plan appealing to any Conservatives as it is too much to the left for them.

I'd say that there are many more disenchanted Liberals than there are New Democrats.

Edited November 12, 2007 by Smallc

[myata]

We discussed this in another thread, and it was pointed out that the problem is complex and throwing in general catchy words and slogans will do little address it (ie. actually achieve some positive change).

First, using a common word like "poverty" is not the best way to approach the issue. "Poverty" in the common use may mean "someone on a (much) lower income scale" or "somebody who cannot satisfy their most basic needs". Obviously, the first problem requires completely different solutions than the second one.

I agree with somebody here who said that those in the "income challeged" group require less of direct government assistance, and particularly, handout, because it does very little to set them on the path to prosperity. What they need more is access to social services, such as education; childcare; affordable housing; job orientation. Does it mean that there's no issue? Not at all - one does note that the cost of college and university education is raising and access to reasonably priced childcare is becoming more and more limited. These are the real brakes on the people who want to improve their prosperity. Also, as already mentioned, some kind of assistance bootstrap system, in which it actually makes sense to try to earn more income, without losing all of the assistance, as far as it makes sense. The point is that each one is a complicated problem often in the shared or even another (provincial) jurisdiction, and will require its own specific solution.

Same goes for the other two groups that are often bundled into the "poor" category. Temporarily "income challenged" arriving to settle in this country need orienation, training, help in identification and recognition of their skills. Not a handout.

One can go on and on. But the point should be clear. Tackling this issue should be a set of approaches and policies coordinated between all governments and implemented with consistency over time.

[old_bold&cold]

Dion thought he would make a safe bet by choosing something that pulls at the heart strings of most people, and he thought poverty especially that of children was a safe thing to push. What he did not count on was the fact that this same thing has already been pushed many times and there really is not the pressing need for this anymore in Canada. So like usual Dion made a bad choice. I wonder sometime if Dion has any advisors at all guiding him, or is he on his own with out any help at all.

Dion will never be able to make any changes to his reputation, until he has a real viable platform that addresses all the issues within the government. He will have to have targets and plans how to meet those targets, and he will need this for many issues not just one or two. He needs to set the basic frame work for the Liberal party and stick to it.

It does not sound like Dion is up for that job, but neither is Iggy or anyone of the last candidates for leader. Those who may have the abilities to do this have so far said little, and it would seem that they are still willing to let the Liberal party dangle for a while yet. Dion must see this by now, and if he had any loyalty to the Liberal party he would just resign and let some one else take over.

[Fain]

Shitty, i wish he didn't focus of the anti-poverty bit and instead on the corporate competitiveness of companies in Canada he talked about before. Canada needs more tax cuts to encourage foreign investment.

[M.Dancer]

Shitty, i wish he didn't focus of the anti-poverty bit and instead on the corporate competitiveness of companies in Canada he talked about before. Canada needs more tax cuts to encourage foreign investment.

Heck, we need more tax cuts to encourage domestic investment.....not to mention interest cuts to encourage more expansion.

[Pliny]

What does not make sense to me Smallc is that Social Agencies enforce ridget rules to punish those on a barely livable income from earning a livable income? In NS a welfare recipient can only earn 2000 a year, instead of allowing them to work at a full time min wage job and still receive full benifits. Why aren't these agencies updating their programs to make them progressive. A single male in Canada receives 8000 a year on disablity, gross, to survive. How can anyone survive on this? I'd like to see programs in place that encourage people on Social Programs to get into the work force without losing their core benifits. I have no problem allowing them to get full benifits for five years if they work full time. This will allow them to establish an employment history. After five years they should of moved up the pay scale in the service sector to be weened of benifits. It's if the Social Agencies want to keep them on assistance.

Of course the Social Agencies want to keep others on assistance or else they themselves would be on the other side of the counter.

Silly argument really. Most people feel the same way about social programs and that is that other people need help. Those that are indifferent will side with the proponents of social programs because most people are compassionate and have no real experience or understanding of the mechanics of social programs. It is so easy to condemn those that are against social programs as uncaring even though the efficacy of such programs has been demonstrated to be minimal. Those providing the assistance wish to remain on the gravy train so heavily attack any threat against the status quo and generally point to their own inefficacy as a demonstration of their "importance" and lack of resources.

Gets my blood pressure up actually.

[Pliny]

Very well said, Dion is merely trying to fabricate a crisis where none exists. In the poor nations of the world, people would kill to live at Canada's poverty levels. They would try to move here even. Joining relatives who would help to bring them over, then line up for our social assistance programs. Any of this ringing a bell?

Yes we have the poor, but those numbers have been falling the last ten years, once again, Dion picks the wrong issue at the wrong time.

Dion picks the wrong issue at the wrong time. I like that - Two wrongs do make a left.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Pliny

[Moxie]

Of course the Social Agencies want to keep others on assistance or else they themselves would be on the other side of the counter.

Silly argument really. Most people feel the same way about social programs and that is that other people need help. Those that are indifferent will side with the proponents of social programs because most people are compassionate and have no real experience or understanding of the mechanics of social programs. It is so easy to condemn those that are against social programs as uncaring even though the efficacy of such programs has been demonstrated to be minimal. Those providing the assistance wish to remain on the gravy train so heavily attack any threat against the status quo and generally point to their own inefficacy as a demonstration of their "importance" and lack of resources.

Gets my blood pressure up actually.

I don't condemn those that are against "The Gravy Train" on any given day I feel as you do Pliny. It gets my blood pressure up also, when I see healthy males driving supted up cars living a carefree life of drug dealing and getting a welfare check each month to pay their rent. On Welfare day I see healthy (most are grossly over weight) females pushing baby buggies smoking a cigerate and lamenting they aren't paid enought to survive. The point I was trying to make is that the system is just as much a problem as cronic welfare addiction. Sadly those that become social workers are the same people who blather on about poverty and the poor yet it's their institution that keeps those who use the system addicted. It's more leftest idiolgy, it's not suppose to make sense just confuse us.

Several Europian countries have severly reduced their welfare programs and employees, as a result recipients have been forced into the work force. Sadly I don't see the Provinces in Canada following suit, it's become a career choice for those receiving benifits and a Career Choice for those running the welfare programs.