Dion Lays Out Anti-Poverty Plan

[jdobbin]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/11/09/dion-poverty.html

Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion has laid out aggressive targets to tackle poverty, pledging to reduce the number of Canadians living below the poverty line by 30 per cent over the next five years.

Dion also said that under his leadership, he would reduce the number of children living in poverty by at least 50 per cent.

"Call it our 30/50 plan to reduce poverty," Dion said in Toronto on Friday. "This 30/50 plan is a bold goal, and we intend it to represent the strongest government action in a generation.

"We commit to an effort never before seen in Canada," he said.

Dion claims about 3.4 million Canadians live in poverty, including 788,000 children.

While not providing specific figures about his plan, Dion said a Liberal government would "significantly increase" income support for at least three groups of Canadians: those seeking to escape welfare, children and seniors.

It seems Dion is adopting one of Tony Blair's planks. I think I need to hear more about the costs and how it will directed. One thing is certain and that is child poverty continues to be a problem in a wealthy Canada.

Edited November 10, 2007 by jdobbin

[capricorn]

I heard comments that since Blair's measures were introduced in the lat 90s poverty numbers have actually risen in the UK. Of course, that might be just Conservative spin to discredit Dion's idea to alleviate poverty in Canada.

My own idea about reducing poverty is to ensure that able bodied Canadians are taken off welfare and find jobs, which are plentiful for the willing.

[jdobbin]

I heard comments that since Blair's measures were introduced in the lat 90s poverty numbers have actually risen in the UK. Of course, that might be just Conservative spin to discredit Dion's idea to alleviate poverty in Canada.

My own idea about reducing poverty is to ensure that able bodied Canadians are taken off welfare and find jobs, which are plentiful for the willing.

Do you have the figures for Britain?

What about the 3.4 million children living in poverty?

[capricorn]

Do you have the figures for Britain?

No specific figures but here is a general analysis of the situation today in the UK.

The Labour government's commitment to halve child poverty by 2010 and then to eradicate it within a generation was one of the most important and inspiring pledges made in the optimistic days following the 1997 election.

Early progress was made – since 1999 more than half a million children have been lifted out of poverty. Worryingly that progress now appears to be stalling and numbers in child poverty began to rise again last year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/nov...lusion.children

What about the 3.4 million children living in poverty?

Doesn't it stand to reason that if families and parents are lifted out of poverty the children will also rise from poverty. On it's own, a child is not poor, it is the family.

[jdobbin]

No specific figures but here is a general analysis of the situation today in the UK.

The Labour government's commitment to halve child poverty by 2010 and then to eradicate it within a generation was one of the most important and inspiring pledges made in the optimistic days following the 1997 election.

Early progress was made – since 1999 more than half a million children have been lifted out of poverty. Worryingly that progress now appears to be stalling and numbers in child poverty began to rise again last year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/nov...lusion.children

Doesn't it stand to reason that if families and parents are lifted out of poverty the children will also rise from poverty. On it's own, a child is not poor, it is the family.

I remember hearing the early results to their push to end child poverty. I wonder why it appears to have stalled.

Since Canada isn't likely to see better employment figures than it does now, it would seem that other social policies are probably worth considering to help ensure poor children can be lifted out of their poverty.

[Keepitsimple]

First of all, throwing out numbers is not a plan. How much it will cost and to whom it will nbe targeted are at least the beginning of a plan - so I'll be curious to see that. In Dion's speech, he mentioned that Poverty has actually gone down from 16% to 11% between 1995 and 2005. That's already a reduction of 30% so I guess we're not doing too badly. The remaining 11% includes First Nations - a somewhat separate issue. It also includes anyone who filed taxes - that includes people who are 21 and under. I for one, don't want to be lifting the salaries of teenagers who are just getting their feet wet in the working world. The 11% also includes refugees - 40,000 every year - of course they are poor - they came here with nothing and it will be some time before they can fully participate - but they'd be the first to tell you that they are far better off today. And finally, we'll never fully eliminate poverty - so what is the "final" level - is it 5%? These are all issues that need to be discussed before Mr. Dion's pie in the sky can become a plan.

[capricorn]

You raise good points. Food for thought as they say.

[ScottSA]

I remember hearing the early results to their push to end child poverty. I wonder why it appears to have stalled.

Since Canada isn't likely to see better employment figures than it does now, it would seem that other social policies are probably worth considering to help ensure poor children can be lifted out of their poverty.

What do you plan to do? Increase their allowances? Give mom and dad more beer money? Because quite frankly the "poverty level" is whatever someone wants to claim it is. As far back as 1993, the NDP poverty metric had anyone living on less than $35,000 a year under their chosen poverty level. Real poverty is a lack of shelter...not of a "home," but of shelter; and a lack of food. No one in Canada lacks those things if they take advantage of the state's benevolence. Runaways may live on the street, but it's by choice. Mental patients may live on the streets, but again it's by choice. No one has to lack the basics of survival in Canada. If they do, they do by choice.

Edited November 10, 2007 by ScottSA

[Amazing Atheist]

My own idea about reducing poverty is to ensure that able bodied Canadians are taken off welfare and find jobs, which are plentiful for the willing.

Unlike you I am a realist.

This will never ever happen, I know this because I grew up in a crime filled inner city neighborhood that most people don't pay attention too.

Hard drug addicts and alcoholics who have children and live in poverty will never work even if you took them off welfare. The only thing that would happen is that people would end up on the streets and robbing your house for money etc.

[Michael Hardner]

What do you plan to do? Increase their allowances? Give mom and dad more beer money? Because quite frankly the "poverty level" is whatever someone wants to claim it is. As far back as 1993, the NDP poverty metric had anyone living on less than $35,000 a year under their chosen poverty level. Real poverty is a lack of shelter...not of a "home," but of shelter; and a lack of food. No one in Canada lacks those things if they take advantage of the state's benevolence. Runaways may live on the street, but it's by choice. Mental patients may live on the streets, but again it's by choice. No one has to lack the basics of survival in Canada. If they do, they do by choice.

Scott - Strangely, I agree with much of what you say here.

However, I'm in favour of fixing poverty, if it does mean lack of food or shelter. We need to demand hard definitions of what we're trying to address.

'Poverty' doesn't mean the poorest 10%, because there will always be a poorest 10%.

[capricorn]

Unlike you I am a realist.

This will never ever happen, I know this because I grew up in a crime filled inner city neighborhood that most people don't pay attention too.

Hard drug addicts and alcoholics who have children and live in poverty will never work even if you took them off welfare. The only thing that would happen is that people would end up on the streets and robbing your house for money etc.

Sorry to disappoint you but in the real world, welfare does not cover the cost of their drugs or booze. These losers already commit crimes to feed their habits.

I put forward a solution. Your response is despair. I'm a realist, you're a defeatist.

[Riverwind]

'Poverty' doesn't mean the poorest 10%, because there will always be a poorest 10%.

That is the problem with the LICO that poverty groups use: it is a relative measure that ensures that there will always be a certain percentage of people living in 'poverty'. Promising to eliminate 'poverty' is impossible unless Dion is willing to adopt an absolute definition of poverty. For some reason I do not think he is willing to do that. Edited November 10, 2007 by Riverwind

[jdobbin]

What do you plan to do? Increase their allowances? Give mom and dad more beer money? Because quite frankly the "poverty level" is whatever someone wants to claim it is. As far back as 1993, the NDP poverty metric had anyone living on less than $35,000 a year under their chosen poverty level. Real poverty is a lack of shelter...not of a "home," but of shelter; and a lack of food. No one in Canada lacks those things if they take advantage of the state's benevolence. Runaways may live on the street, but it's by choice. Mental patients may live on the streets, but again it's by choice. No one has to lack the basics of survival in Canada. If they do, they do by choice.

The right often says that poverty is by choice and while it is true that having a job does quite a bit to relieve a primary source of poverty, it doesn't solve all of the problems. Affordable housing, daycare, public transit, income tax cuts and other social programming can help people provide for their families.

[August1991]

Dion claims about 3.4 million Canadians live in poverty, including 788,000 children.

Where did Dion get this number? For example, how many of these children are registered Indians living on reserves? (IOW, how many of these poor children are already targeted by federal largesse?)

Dion seems to be proposing just another tax-and-spend leftist plan.

Dion said that under the current system, many people who want to leave welfare face a giant welfare wall, and that many are worse off because they lose benefits and have to pay taxes.

Here I agree with Dion. The problem here is not the federal government - it's teh way the provinces administer their welfare schemes.

Dion said he will increase the working income tax benefit — a refundable tax credit introduced in the 2007 budget to improve incentives to work for low-income Canadians.

This won't matter for much and adds needless complexity to our tax system.

Dion said his government would also expand and improve the Canada Child Tax Benefit, and increase the guaranteed income supplement payment for low-income seniors.

Seniors? More money?

----

The best thing to do to help "poor" people would be to raise the personal exemption and eliminate payroll taxes such as CPP and EI contributions.

The government should take no money from anyone earning below $15,000 annually. Indeed, it should be easy to hire such people.

The best social welfare policy is a job.

Edited November 10, 2007 by August1991

[jdobbin]

Where did Dion get this number? For example, how many of these children are registered Indians living on reserves? (IOW, how many of these poor children are already targeted by federal largesse?)

Dion seems to be proposing just another tax-and-spend leftist plan.

Here I agree with Dion. The problem here is not the federal government - it's teh way the provinces administer their welfare schemes.

This won't matter for much and adds needless complexity to our tax system.

Seniors? More money?

----

The best thing to do to help "poor" people would be to raise the personal exemption and eliminate payroll taxes such as CPP and EI contributions.

The government should take no money from anyone earning below $15,000 annually. Indeed, it should be easy to hire such people.

The best social welfare policy is a job.

The numbers presented came from Statistics Canada according to the TV reports.

There is the Working Income Tax credit with the Tories increased in the last budget. A further increase would help greatly.

Affordable housing is indeed another area that the government can be helpful in.

Some of the other measures are tweaking existing programs.

The Liberals are not going to win elections if they are not proposing new ideas. One of the statements weeks ago was major cuts to corporate taxes. This was a policy statement of how to bring poverty numbers down.

The right wing response: Get a job!

Well, lots of people have gotten jobs and there are still a lot of people struggling to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads. A rich country could do more in both those areas.

[M.Dancer]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/11/09/dion-poverty.html

It seems Dion is adopting one of Tony Blair's planks.

Was Tony Blair wearing a leisure suit at the time...sheesh...a poverty plan, talk about retro I'm breaking out the KC and the Sunshine band 8 tracks .....

But seriously, lessons learned the only way to tackle poverty is by creating incentives and the right economic client to launch them...Dion is going to throw away the years of Hard Work put in By Chretien, Martin and now Harper in creating an economic climate where people actually can see the fruits of their labour and where unemployment is at record lows...

What a maroon!

[trex]

TORONTO - At least a million Canadians ignored by the federal Conservatives would be lifted out of poverty within five years if the Liberals form the next government, Leader Stephane Dion said Friday.

It's the first step in a "war on poverty never seen before in Canada's history," Dion pledged in a campaign-style speech in Toronto, surrounded by prominent Liberals.

But the bold promise, modelled after a plan led by former British prime minister Tony Blair, also hinted at a broader strategy aimed at vaulting the Liberals past the governing Conservatives in the polls by seducing socially minded voters of all political stripes.

"As a Canadian, I am embarrassed by it," Dion said of the sheer number of poor people living in Canada.

"As a Liberal, I cannot accept it. And as prime minister, I will correct it."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/071109/...iberals_poverty

---------------------

This is what the Liberals need to do, talk about real policy not play the games with Harper and chumps. If Dion is as impressive as they say he is, lets hear him out. Perhaps he is not as charismatic a leader as Harper, who is mostly all show and bluster, there could be something worth listening to in his message. I hope he will continue to put out strong ideas like this, and prove everybody wrong about himself. We don't need a hollywood movie star and we dont want to go backwards in time, which the extreme right would lead us toward.

PS Ignatieff should now be put in the second row.

EDIT

This was the Opening Post of a redundant thread: Dion would aggressively target poverty which has now been merged into this current thread.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Charles Anthony
merged thread

[runningdog]

Nice to see Dion finally acting like a leader.

[M.Dancer]

Nice to see Dion finally acting like a leader.

.....from the 70s......

....oh and

repost

[sharkman]

I guess he's going for the big stuff, so world peace has gotta be in his top five, with a sub catagory on having the Arabs and Israelis become friends.

I give him 3 more months.

Edited November 10, 2007 by sharkman

[M.Dancer]

I guess he's going for the big stuff, so world peace has gotta be in his top five, with a sub catagory on having the Arabs and Israelis become friends.

I give him 3 more months.

I think he will soon be calling for a campaign against inflation by instituting wage and price freezes and then proposing a special commision on the status of women.

[old_bold&cold]

If this is what has taken Dion so long to come up with, then it is just too little and verey much so too late. He also admits that he can not say what the costs are as he has not so far been able to assess all of then, but will by the time of the next election call.

Wimpey in the popeye cartoons used to say "I'll gladly pay you tuesday, for a hamburger today", so I guess Dion is just like Wimpey, in his way of doing things.

Since the Liberal are known for not keeping the promises they make, I would not want to be one of those in poverty, looking and waiting for anything to happen from the liberals to make life more positive for them. The liberal great hope for re-election with Dion, are to say the least a very large long shot.

[sharkman]

Whups, there is another thread with this exact topic. Trex, is this the second double thread you' ve started?

[Smallc]

Nice to see Dion finally acting like a leader.

Oh yeah, what a leader . I am not supporting the Liberals until he's gone or he really changes.

[Keepitsimple]

This is a duplicate thread but I'll say it again. By Dion's own measurement, "poverty" has gone from 16% to 11% in the past ten years - and that includes anybody who filed a tax return - First Nations. people under 21 (and as young as 15 years old), and the 40,000 refugees who arrive in Canada each and every year with only the clothes on their back. The Poverty Industry - led by socialists on the far left - have a vested interest in exagerrating and inflating dubiously defined poverty statistics - similar to how the Gay Rights brigade drummed us with stats that said that Homosexuals and their ilk made up anywhere from 10 to 20% of the population. It's common practice to create a "crisis" to gain attention, but since we've supposedly "reduced poverty" by 30% in the past 10 years - where exactly is the crisis? This reduction doesn't even include 06 and 07 which probably reduces it substantiually more because of the booming economy and low unemployment. There is an issue - not a crisis, and it's an ongoing one - how do we balance providing support for the neediest without taking away the initiative to take personal responsibility and achieve the dignity of supportting one self? This issue will never go away completely. The only crisis is that the Liberal Party wants the votes of all the hand-wringers who won't acknowledge that Canada already has a support system that catches almost everyone who has an inclination to help themselves. As someone else said, there will ALWAYS be "the 10% poorest Canadians". The whole gambit seemsw to be a ploy to shore up the Liberals bleeding left flank - but in doing so, Dion stands to lose support from the center as he moves farther to the left.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Keepitsimple