Conservatives bringing back death penalty for Canadians abroad

[Shakeyhands]

who are they trying to please with this one? I can't see it as a winner with those new voters the CPC want to vote for them.

[bush_cheney2004]

What I meant was, if anyone can file a request for clemency, then it does not matter who does the filing. All prisoners are able to make the request. Given that the person in the article was still on death row, it seems unlikely that Canadian prisoners get any leverage or deal.

The Canadian government makes the request because the prisoner is a Canadian citizen and Canada does not have the death penalty. We essentially offer to take the prisoner because we do not believe in killing convicts.

Sorry, but if it doesn't matter, why can't the convicted murderer file his own petition just like everybody else? Are you advocating that Canadian nationals (murderers) deserve a different sentence than American nationals?

He is not Canada's convict, and Canada has no jurisdiction or standing in the matter. Hell, Canada wouldn't even repatriate Muher Arar, and he didn't murder anybody.

Edited November 2, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[August1991]

What a topic. What a thread.

First of all, let's be honest. If you travel abroad, you are subject to the laws of the countries where you travel. IMV, if a Canadian travels abroad and takes risks, that is their choice. To what degree am I - another Canadian - responsible? (Our passport states clearly that foreign countries apply citizenship and laws as they wish.)

Second, the US is a civilized country and everyone knows that some states have capital punishment after due process.

Third, this issue is stupid. When it breaks down ultimately, it's a referendum on Canadian perceptions of the US. That's a winning propostion for the Conservatives. Stockwell Day is making the right political move.

----

Why, as a Canadian taxpayer, am I paying any money to defend some guy who chose to go to the US? If you chhose to go abroad, you assume the risk.

Frankly, I prefer that my tax money go to children born in difficult families where the children have no choice.

[noahbody]

When we condone violence from the state we make it acceptable to have violence within the state. The problem is simply that Canada opposes death sentence as punishment, for anyone.

When justice isn't served, we make it acceptable to have violence within the state.

[Wilber]

Bull puckey....police routinely use deadly force without "due process" as provided for in law. Civilians die during military operations as acceptable collateral damage. The abortion debate will never end exactly because it ends a life.

That's the point, the courts do it with "due process". It is a conscious premeditated act, just like the murder it is punishing. There are other options. We do not expect our military to engage in the calculated killing of civilians. It is not police policy to kill people, and if they do they can be subject to the same laws as any other citizen. They sometimes have to kill out of necessity, not by choice. We expect them not to use deadly force unless there are no other options, that's why we give them things like batons, CS spray and Tazers as well as firearms.

The Canadian government has no such obligation.

No legal obligation true, but it is completely inconsistent to take a position against an American facing the death penalty in the US and the opposite for a Canadian.

[Wilber]

When justice isn't served, we make it acceptable to have violence within the state.

There is no evidence that capital punishment reduces murder rates. It is a form of legalized revenge as much as anything. I oppose it because of what it says about a society that practices capital punishment. I have no sympathy for these people and many of them probably have it coming but I have no desire to lower myself to their level. It institutionalizes putting people to death. It amazes me that people can be pro life and at the same time pro capital punishment. Either you believe in the sanctity of human life or you don't. I also don't wish to have the likes of David Milgaard, Guy Paul Moran, David Marshall and others on my conscience because they were put to death in my name.

[August1991]

There is no evidence that capital punishment reduces murder rates.

Entirely beside the point.

If you travel to the US, you take the risk that you will be charged with murder and suffer capital punishment.

The thread is about the Canadian government's response to your predicament.

The US is a civilized country with due process. Some American states impose capital punishment. Everyone knows this. IOW, don't ask me to come and bail you out for your prdicament - certainly not in the US.

(Accused of a crime and incarcerated in China, you might have a case. But even then, I'd argue that you choose to go to China. And everyone knows about the Chinese government now.)

Edited November 2, 2007 by August1991

[Wilber]

Entirely beside the point.

I didn't bring it up, noahbody did.

The thread is about the Canadian government's response to your predicament.

Exactly, I am pointing out that our law requires us to refuse extradition of an American who faces the death penalty but our government says that it will no longer try and do anything for Canadian who faces the death penalty in the US. Am I the only one who sees any contradiction or inconsistency here? If this is their position they should change the law which prevents extradition as well.

[noahbody]

I didn't bring it up, noahbody did.

What I said was "if justice isn't served...." The minimum definition of justice in Smith's case would be life in prison, likely without nintendo.

[scribblet]

He's been in jail for 20 years, due process has been duly served, and then some...

What did this guy say at the trial - oh yea:

" "I wanted to find out what it would be like to kill somebody . . ." ,

hopefully soon he'll get to find out first hand what death is like.

[noahbody]

deleted

Edited November 2, 2007 by noahbody

[bush_cheney2004]

That's the point, the courts do it with "due process". It is a conscious premeditated act, just like the murder it is punishing. There are other options. We do not expect our military to engage in the calculated killing of civilians. It is not police policy to kill people, and if they do they can be subject to the same laws as any other citizen....

The point was that government can and does take human life without due process as a matter of circumstance and policy objectives, whereas death row inmates have been afforded the most "due process" of all, making their execution a purposeful "premeditated" event. That governments kill people according to law is unexceptional in this regard.

No legal obligation true, but it is completely inconsistent to take a position against an American facing the death penalty in the US and the opposite for a Canadian.

It is unclear to me that Canada had taken any position with respect to condemned Americans, unless you mean the more general opposition to capital punishment worldwide, in which case the condemned Canadian needs no special intervention.

[M.Dancer]

I think the position of the Gov't should be two fold.

First the should observe the process to ensure the accused Canadian receives a fair trial and that during the appeal process that all avenues are explored.

And secondly they should lobby all nations to end this barbaric medieval third world punishment.

But beyond that, even Canadians don't deserve special treatment when they break the law in other countries. They should be treated like every other person, regardless of race or nationality.

[bush_cheney2004]

...But beyond that, even Canadians don't deserve special treatment when they break the law in other countries. They should be treated like every other person, regardless of race or nationality.

Agreed....fry 'em to the tune of "Oh Canada". Next case....

[weaponeer]

He murdered 2 people for nothing, should have fried him years ago, to hell with him!!! If we had a few more balls in this country, and sorted these creeps out, we might not have the problems we do. Why do murderers get out of jail in the first place?? Life should mean life. Why are child rapists let out at all. How do you treat them, you lock them up for life, have some balls Canada!!!

Great job PM Harper, good call!!!

[Hydraboss]

I didn't bring it up, noahbody did.

Exactly, I am pointing out that our law requires us to refuse extradition of an American who faces the death penalty but our government says that it will no longer try and do anything for Canadian who faces the death penalty in the US. Am I the only one who sees any contradiction or inconsistency here? If this is their position they should change the law which prevents extradition as well.

You're right in that we can't have it both ways. My choice would be to end any and all extradition proceedings and applications. If someone commits a crime in another country and flees to Canada (as usually happens), we should look into it and just kick him to the border. I really don't care where he goes...it is the responsibility of the nation where the crime was committed to find him.

If a Canadian leaves our borders, they should no longer be under our protection. The only exemption to this would be those required by our nation to travel (soldiers). If they breach the laws of another country, they pay the price as dictated by that country's laws.

See how simple that would be?

[guyser]

If a Canadian leaves our borders, they should no longer be under our protection. The only exemption to this would be those required by our nation to travel (soldiers). If they breach the laws of another country, they pay the price as dictated by that country's laws.

See how simple that would be?

Except that we do have it both ways. A CDN can be arrested on Canadian soil for a crime commited elsewhere.

So it only goes that we should have an interest in CDN's outside our borders.

Note, I agree with fair trial and punishment in democratic countries.

[daniel]

Canada already has its own problems with wrongful convictions and some questionable police practices. That's only been revealed and admission due to Canada's openness.

Who knows how much better or worse the judicial and law enforcement system is and by whose standards in other countries.

Edited November 2, 2007 by daniel

[Wilber]

He murdered 2 people for nothing, should have fried him years ago, to hell with him!!! If we had a few more balls in this country, and sorted these creeps out, we might not have the problems we do. Why do murderers get out of jail in the first place?? Life should mean life. Why are child rapists let out at all. How do you treat them, you lock them up for life, have some balls Canada!!!

Great job PM Harper, good call!!!

Weaponeer, I won't shed any tears over this guys fate no matter what happens to him. I agree that life should mean life. However, it is a country's duty to act for its citizens when they are elsewhere. You say, good call Harper. Does that mean you think any Canadian government should be able to pick which citizens it chooses to act for according to its own dogma? As a Canadian who spends much of his time in shitty parts of the world you should give that some thought. It makes me wonder even more how much I could count on these people if I should find myself in difficulty in some other part of the world.

[myata]

But when it comes to Canadian citizens, I do think that Canada should at least try to discuss the issue with the US. If we believe it is wrong, then we should fight for our citizens. Even if we are doomed to fail.

I agree with that too. It's nothing to do with sovereignty. US (and other countries) will do what they please. But here in Canada we do not have death penalty. It means that we should at least try to have it changed to something that agrees with our principles.

Once again, Conservative are trying to sneak in their ideology without public debate. I'd argue that such a position equates to silent approval of death penalty. But they'll never tell it openly to the public. That's why I wouldn't trust Harper with a majority for all the tax cuts in the world. The guy is an activist and who knows what ideas he'll come up with should he get real power.

[Shakeyhands]

I agree with that too. It's nothing to do with sovereignty. US (and other countries) will do what they please. But here in Canada we do not have death penalty. It means that we should at least try to have it changed to something that agrees with our principles.

Once again, Conservative are trying to sneak in their ideology without public debate. I'd argue that such a position equates to silent approval of death penalty. But they'll never tell it openly to the public. That's why I wouldn't trust Harper with a majority for all the tax cuts in the world. The guy is an activist and who knows what ideas he'll come up with should he get real power.

5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - ......

Wait for it....

[Moxie]

Weaponeer, I won't shed any tears over this guys fate no matter what happens to him. I agree that life should mean life. However, it is a country's duty to act for its citizens when they are elsewhere. You say, good call Harper. Does that mean you think any Canadian government should be able to pick which citizens it chooses to act for according to its own dogma? As a Canadian who spends much of his time in shitty parts of the world you should give that some thought. It makes me wonder even more how much I could count on these people if I should find myself in difficulty in some other part of the world.

Looking at the issue from that perspective I'd agree with you. I have friends that have touring jobs overseas in the ME and a few have been in legal trouble for being rude. One served four months in jail for giving an off duty cop the finger. He was deported and is not allowed back into that country again to tour. Politeness is manatory apparently.

[Guest trex]

So all the previous work we had done in trying to reform other countries, like this, now becomes useless.

This document discusses, among other things, Canadas opposition to the execution of minors, and the use of such methods as stoning to death. Now a good laugh for the Ayatollahs, thanks to the conservative party we are flip-flopping on our core values.

Canadian Citizen sentenced to death in China

"Huseyincan Celil, a 37-year-old naturalized Canadian citizen from Burlington, Ont., was sentenced to death in China for human rights work he did on behalf of the Uyghur Muslim minority in Xinjiang province."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA410232003

"The Lao Dong Daily newspaper reported that Vietnamese legislators in debate complained about the length of time to implement death sentences because of lengthy appeals. The same article reported that Deputy Education and Training Minister Nguyen Tan Phat was worried that law officials were concerned about appeals. One legislator, Nguyen Kim Thoa is reported to have expressed alarm at the fact that a full 80 % of death penalties were appealed, asking whether the high rate was the fault of judges or prosecutors. Another, La Van Tran reportedly said he was even more concerned by defendants’ high success rate in getting death sentences overturned or commuted to prison terms on appeal.(10) According to Amnesty Internationals information, the commutation of death sentences in Viet Nam is rare.

"In the case of Canadian citizen, Nguyen Thi Hiep, Canadian officials accused the Vietnamese authorities of pressing ahead with her execution without taking into account evidence she had been unwittingly used to carry drugs out of Viet Nam. Nguyen Thi Hiep was arrested in April 1996 together with her mother Tran Thi Cam at Ha Noi airport. She was charged and later convicted of trafficking five kilograms of heroin in a trial in March 1997 at the Ha Noi People’s Court. The sentence was upheld by the Supreme People’s Court in August 1997. Nguyen Thi Hiep’s eventual execution on 25 April 1999 sparked a major diplomatic rift between Canada and Vietnam. "

Canadians face beheading in Saudi Arabia

"According to an account in the Arabic newspaper Okaz, a brawl ensued at the school involving 14 young people, with Palestinians facing off against Syrians. “As the physical attack intensified, one of the Palestinians grabbed a Syrian boy named Monther, punched him violently and hit his head against the school yard fence. Monther fell on the ground and died instantly.†The dead youth has since been identified as Munzer Haraki.

Mr. Kohail said, “I didn't touch anyone. There were 13 people who were beating me up. … They used knives and sticks and bricks.†He said he suffered injuries to his shoulder, ribs and eyes, and broke his front teeth.

Yet, as he was being treated at hospital, Mr. Kohail said, he was arrested by police and transferred to Salamah police station.

He said the police slapped him, pushed him and spat on him until he agreed to confess to punching the Syrian boy. “There was a policeman who told me, you have to sign, because if you sign the papers, you will get out†of prison.

Mr. Kohail said the policeman insisted that Mr. Kohail was risking very little in admitting to punching the Syrian youth, because he was still alive. But as soon as Mr. Kohail signed the confession, he was told that the boy had died and he was going to be charged with murder.

Contacted in Saudi Arabia, the boys' father, Ali Kohail said Sultan had also been coerced into confessing. “They were both forced to sign.â€

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Are these also the people we will turn our back on? Or will Harper et al become some kind of judge and jury at a distace, when Canadians are sentenced to death n other countries. The question is, based on what evidence would they make their decision, and how are they qualified as judges to be impartial and uphold the laws? Poiticians are not qualified to make those decisions, nor do we want to change our policy at the whim of someone who is appointed by the Prime Minister. Thats why the policy has to be for all people facing execution, not just some.

[Hydraboss]

He broke the law, and he should pay the price.

Don't want to pay the price China extracts? Don't go to China.

[Wilber]

Looking at the issue from that perspective I'd agree with you. I have friends that have touring jobs overseas in the ME and a few have been in legal trouble for being rude. One served four months in jail for giving an off duty cop the finger. He was deported and is not allowed back into that country again to tour. Politeness is manatory apparently.

Anyone who gives someone else the finger, including a cop shouldn't be surprised if something bad happens. Anyone who does it in a foreign country with very different customs is an idiot and while it is unfortunate, I don't have a ton of sympathy for your friend. But what if fingering a cop was a capital offense in that country? Would our government be OK with that? How many members of this forum would be OK with that? My point is, where do they get off making value judgements as to which Canadians they will represent and which they will not?