Conservatives bringing back death penalty for Canadians abroad

[Moxie]

The US has no obligation to pay any attention to our government's interventions on behalf of Canadians facing the death penalty in the US. I'm just wondering how our government will rationalize it the next time our law forces them to got to bat for an American citizen when they won't do it for a Canadian facing the same penalty in the same place for the same crime.

You have a very insightful way of asking questions that are very challenging. I also wonder will the Harper government hand over a criminal wanted in the states for a capital offense or will Canadians be forced to pay for him to lolly his days away at our expense. Life in prison in Canada can mean as little as six years in jail, at least in the US life in prison means just that.

I have no problem sending American criminals back to the US for execution, I'm a hard arse if they don't want to do the time or die don't commit the crime.

[capricorn]

That sounds totally disfunctional.

trex, it sounds like you have never worked in the federal public service. I did for 20 years, half at the middle management level. Believe me, I saw dysfunctional.

How do they even know where to draw the line, on policies that have been in place for decades. The new government has to announce its changes, not the employees figure it out by mind-reading or asking for validity on their every move... silly excuse.

It's not a case of mind reading or checking on their every move. People do talk to each other, or so they should. At the Deputy Minister level, regular briefings are held with the responsible Minister. Assuming the Deputy Minister has been in the job some time, he/she would be intimately acquainted with the major policy issues or cases affecting the portfolio of the Minister in question. The Deputy Minister lays out any potential problems, offers various strategies and seeks the approval of the Minister. If there is a change in policy the Minister will so advise the Deputy.

I do believe that in Smith's case there was a breakdown in communications between the bureaucracy and the government. I have my own views of what happened but I may be wrong.

This, is not a question of whether a Canadian is guilty, as the murderer in the Montana, but our attitude towards capital punishment. If we are against it, we're aganst it no matter what or where it takes place. And our obligation is to complain to those countries, places like Phillipines where death sentences are mandatory for drug crimes, even marijuana possession. Our government is obligated to try and fight for their lives to be spared, regardless of whether those countries will cooperate, or have ever cooperated before.

I see your point. Canada is against the death penalty and so am I. And some countries have a low regard for human life. But as Rue says, it's a question of the US's sovereignty. We don't have the power to influence their death penalty policy, which varies from State to State, just because we disagree with it.

And the notion of considering this on a case-by-case basis is dysfunctional too. The decision should certainly not be left up to people like Stockwell Day.

Isn't it better to look at cases one by one instead for painting them all with the same brush?

Whether we like a politician or not, he/she was duly elected, given a job in Cabinet and that is democracy.

[jdobbin]

Actually what is happening is that they are not going to bat for Canadian citizens facing a punishment that is against the law in Canada. And that is a problem. If we believe the death penalty is unacceptable then it is unacceptable to let our citizens face this punishment.

What is the Conservative policy on the death penalty in Canada?

[bush_cheney2004]

First, we are not imposing our laws on the US in this case. We are asking them for clemency because the person in question is a Canadian citizen and Canada has abolished the death penalty. No one is going in there to physically prevent this person from being executed....

But Canada does not have standing to request clemency, as this is almost exclusively requested by state advisory groups / boards appointed for this purpose or left to the governor's sole disgression. The advisory boards are recognized for due diligence and consistency....I can hear the other inmates on death row now: "Oh, this murderer gets his sentence commuted just because he's Canadian".

Paul Bernardo....come on down...and bring Karla too!

[bk59]

What is the Conservative policy on the death penalty in Canada?

I don't know. But it also does not matter. Canada has no death penalty. The government is responsible for its citizens. The government should be at the very least asking for clemency. If the Conservative party wants to bring back the death penalty then let them try. And we'll see what happens in an election. But while the death penalty is off the books then Canada should be attempting to protect its citizens from the death penalty. There is a difference between the government of Canada and the Conservative party. (And to be fair, that distinction goes for every party when they are in power.)

[Moxie]

But Canada does not have standing to request clemency, as this is almost exclusively requested by state advisory groups / boards appointed for this purpose or left to the governor's sole disgression. The advisory boards are recognized for due diligence and consistency....I can hear the other inmates on death row now: "Oh, this murderer gets his sentence commuted just because he's Canadian".

Paul Bernardo....come on down...and bring Karla too!

I like the American version of justice, Canada waffles between Punishment and Retribution to Punishment and Rehabilation. Our justice system gets tweeked to appease the pandering left every few years, justice means--to the victims "Just Us" alone and suffering while the left are there thering DEAR to the hardened criminals.

In the US Karla would be dead instead of raising a newborn, she killed her sister after she drugged her and raped her. I don't like Canadian Justice, because it's on the side of the criminal. Rarely do they pay the price for their crimes.

[capricorn]

First of all, this is not a new government. This individual case has clearly been going on for years and I would bet that those government officials have been continuing to ask for clemency ever since the Conservatives got their minority. And I'm guessing that there was no policy change until now.

If bureaucrats have been asking for clemency for Mr. Smith on an ongoing basis, I have no problem with that.

Whether the Conservatives had a policy, replaced their policy or just developed one, we really don't know. From media reports, there appears to have been a communications problem which I hope has been addressed.

[bk59]

But Canada does not have standing to request clemency, as this is almost exclusively requested by state advisory groups / boards appointed for this purpose or left to the governor's sole disgression. The advisory boards are recognized for due diligence and consistency....I can hear the other inmates on death row now: "Oh, this murderer gets his sentence commuted just because he's Canadian".

Paul Bernardo....come on down...and bring Karla too!

Sure Canada can ask. In fact, that's exactly what Canada was doing... requesting clemency. Nations are allowed to talk with one another and make requests of one another.

What does Bernardo have to do with this?

[jdobbin]

I don't know. But it also does not matter. Canada has no death penalty. The government is responsible for its citizens. The government should be at the very least asking for clemency. If the Conservative party wants to bring back the death penalty then let them try. And we'll see what happens in an election. But while the death penalty is off the books then Canada should be attempting to protect its citizens from the death penalty. There is a difference between the government of Canada and the Conservative party. (And to be fair, that distinction goes for every party when they are in power.)

If the Tories intend to change the death penalty in Canada, this could be their test balloon.

I agree that if the policy in Canada is no death penalty, then it should be what we advocate for our citizens everywhere.

However, incremental conservativism could mean this is the first step in a national change of policy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure Canada can ask. In fact, that's exactly what Canada was doing... requesting clemency. Nations are allowed to talk with one another and make requests of one another.

What does Bernardo have to do with this?

Canada can do whatever it wishes, but I'm hoping it falls on deaf ears with respect to clemency board protocols. The cynical reference to Paul and Karla is obvious...come to any US state with capital punishment and murder without fear of execution because Canada will raise your worth compared to other convicted murderers without Canuck citizenship.

[bk59]

In the US Karla would be dead instead of raising a newborn, she killed her sister after she drugged her and raped her. I don't like Canadian Justice, because it's on the side of the criminal. Rarely do they pay the price for their crimes.

I guess the problem that I have with that attitude is the classic case of the wrongly convicted. It is one thing to release someone from 10 years in jail after it has been shown that they were wrongly convicted. It is quite another to have to go to that person's family and admit that the state killed him or her for no good reason.

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess the problem that I have with that attitude is the classic case of the wrongly convicted. It is one thing to release someone from 10 years in jail after it has been shown that they were wrongly convicted. It is quite another to have to go to that person's family and admit that the state killed him or her for no good reason.

Why? The "state" kills people routinely without the due process afforded to convicted murderers / felons, through police actions, wars, ...even abortions depending on one's point of view. By definition, there is no such thing as wrongly convicted.

Edited November 2, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Bluth]

If the Tories intend to change the death penalty in Canada, this could be their test balloon.

However, incremental conservativism could mean this is the first step in a national change of policy.

scary, scary, scary

Kudos to all the other posters here, regardless of the side of the issue, for avoiding such a false and misleading post.

Shame, shame, shame.

[bk59]

If bureaucrats have been asking for clemency for Mr. Smith on an ongoing basis, I have no problem with that.

Whether the Conservatives had a policy, replaced their policy or just developed one, we really don't know. From media reports, there appears to have been a communications problem which I hope has been addressed.

That's a fair assessment. If there are communication problems then yes, that does need to be addressed.

[guyser]

In the US Karla would be dead instead of raising a newborn, she killed her sister after she drugged her and raped her. I don't like Canadian Justice, because it's on the side of the criminal. Rarely do they pay the price for their crimes.

You mean you dont like the cops, assuming you know about that case.

[capricorn]

Canada is asking more than for clemency against imposing the death penalty on Mr. Smith. Officials were set to request that Mr. Smith be transferred to Canada to serve a sentence. What that sentence would be is unknown.

From the article linked below titled: "Canada fights to bring death-row killer home from U.S."

"Ms. Gagnaire noted that Canada "has a Transfer of Offenders Treaty with the United States. However, prisoners can only apply when all appeals have been exhausted. Mr. Smith currently has appeal proceedings under way in the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals."

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story....422&k=39442

The Conservatives position is that no effort will be made to repatriate Mr. Smith. They could still continue asking that the death penalty be revoked.

[bk59]

Canada can do whatever it wishes, but I'm hoping it falls on deaf ears with respect to clemency board protocols. The cynical reference to Paul and Karla is obvious...come to any US state with capital punishment and murder without fear of execution because Canada will raise your worth compared to other convicted murderers without Canuck citizenship.

I don't think Canada is all of a sudden exporting murderers to the US. I mean, let's face it. If they want to commit murder without fear of execution then they would stay at home in Canada. And it doesn't raise anyone's worth. Anyone on death row can ask for clemency. That does not mean that they will get it, but they can ask. Just like Canada was asking.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't think Canada is all of a sudden exporting murderers to the US. I mean, let's face it. If they want to commit murder without fear of execution then they would stay at home in Canada. And it doesn't raise anyone's worth. Anyone on death row can ask for clemency. That does not mean that they will get it, but they can ask. Just like Canada was asking.

That's not how it works in most states....there are clemency protocols to follow and it must be consistent for obvious reasons. Why should a Canadian murderer be treated any differently...i.e. sovereign intervention?

[bk59]

That's not how it works in most states....there are clemency protocols to follow and it must be consistent for obvious reasons. Why should a Canadian murderer be treated any differently...i.e. sovereign intervention?

What are the protocols?

Are certain prisoners prevented from asking for clemency? Because if not, then what does it matter who is asking for clemency? Whether it be a Canadian government official, or a murderer's wife?

[bush_cheney2004]

What are the protocols?

Are certain prisoners prevented from asking for clemency? Because if not, then what does it matter who is asking for clemency? Whether it be a Canadian government official, or a murderer's wife?

It matters plenty....filing a petition for Execeutive Clemency is a straightforawrd process and typically involves review by a Clemency Board, which issues a recommendation to the governor. Convicted murderers with the backing and leverage (deal?) of a sovereign state have an advantage over other doomed convicts.

Besides, if it doesn't matter, why would the Canadian government get involved?

[Wilber]

Why? The "state" kills people routinely without the due process afforded to convicted murderers / felons, through police actions, wars, ...even abortions depending on one's point of view. By definition, there is no such thing as wrongly convicted.

Nonsense, it's a sanctioned execution after due process, not an act of war or police action. The abortion debate will never end.

That's not how it works in most states....there are clemency protocols to follow and it must be consistent for obvious reasons. Why should a Canadian murderer be treated any differently...i.e. sovereign intervention?

There is no reason under US law, we are talking about the Canadian government's obligation to plead on their behalf, not a US obligation to abide by those requests.

[Keepitsimple]

I think the Americans would be far more likely to grant clemency and return the accused to Canada if we had a real "life" sentence. But we don't. The practical maximum is 25 years and right now, there is still the "faint hope" clause that can let someone out earlier. We are at the mercy of our laws, the Charter, and the Charter-loving Supreme Court. Cruel and unuswual punishment seems to only apply to criminals - never the victims.

When Capital Punishment was abolished, it was supposed to have been a free vote - it was not. The Liberals voted en-masse - a whipped vote - and still, it barely passed. Capital Punishment was supposed to be replaced by a true Life Sentence - in jail for the rest of your life. But again, the Liberals but a shameful definition to Life in Priswon and that's where we are today. Is it really any wonder that the US continually tell us to take a hike?

I'm a proponent of Capital Punishment for heinous crimes that are proven without a doubt - some people, few as they are, do not deserve to walk this earth with the rest of us. For other first degree murders, the starting point should be life in prison (life till you die) with a judge's discretionj as to whether parole could be considered after serving at least 25 years.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nonsense, it's a sanctioned execution after due process, not an act of war or police action. The abortion debate will never end.

Bull puckey....police routinely use deadly force without "due process" as provided for in law. Civilians die during military operations as acceptable collateral damage. The abortion debate will never end exactly because it ends a life.

There is no reason under US law, we are talking about the Canadian government's obligation to plead on their behalf, not a US obligation to abide by those requests.

The Canadian government has no such obligation.

[bk59]

It matters plenty....filing a petition for Execeutive Clemency is a straightforawrd process and typically involves review by a Clemency Board, which issues a recommendation to the governor. Convicted murderers with the backing and leverage (deal?) of a sovereign state have an advantage over other doomed convicts.

Besides, if it doesn't matter, why would the Canadian government get involved?

What I meant was, if anyone can file a request for clemency, then it does not matter who does the filing. All prisoners are able to make the request. Given that the person in the article was still on death row, it seems unlikely that Canadian prisoners get any leverage or deal.

The Canadian government makes the request because the prisoner is a Canadian citizen and Canada does not have the death penalty. We essentially offer to take the prisoner because we do not believe in killing convicts.

[Guest trex]

I'm a proponent of Capital Punishment for heinous crimes that are proven without a doubt - some people, few as they are, do not deserve to walk this earth with the rest of us. For other first degree murders, the starting point should be life in prison (life till you die) with a judge's discretionj as to whether parole could be considered after serving at least 25 years.

When we condone violence from the state we make it acceptable to have violence within the state. The problem is simply that Canada opposes death sentence as punishment, for anyone. And in objecting to other countries that want to execute Canadian citizens, we are voicing our opposition to capital punishment to those countries. If the United States put him in jail for life there would likely not be a protest from Canada. AGain I am looking beyond this one guy, to ask what about people who are to be executed in Phillipines, Saudi Arabia, etc. where heads roll on a regular basis, for things that are barely considered crimes right here. Now what about them, Mr. Day. Will you also say nothing? I think it shows the thin veil has been removed from the conservative public face, to show us what values they have in store for Canada if they ever get a majority.