Army Guy

Thats the problem with Canadians today, we don't know how to handle any crisses, we like the UN have to debate issues to death. We can't stay focused long enough to see anything thru in todays fast food culture... So i'm sure we are winning lots of hearts and minds in Afgan, The NDP wants out now, something about dafur...The liberals have put a foot down 2 years no more....The Cons just want to see it thru....I've always wondered what the Afgans talk about in regards to our commitment....not offically as suggested below but behind closed doors. Afganis As for this being Bushes war "you are wrong" it may of been his idea , his plan, But as soon as WE as a nation agreed to help, it became a Canadian commitment, Canada decides it's level of commitment, no one else. So we can stop the finger pionting right now. But the majority of Canadians have said enough , we've done enough, we've payed enough, we've buried to many. And while it is true Canadian soldiers have done all that and more, they are the ones asking those majority "what they have done" , what have they done to solve this problem....A problem they are now willing to drop like a hot rock....leaving it all behind for someone else to solve, or for the Afganis to fend for themselfs... Thats not what most Canadians want, because thats not what they want to hear, most if not all military famlies are commited to the mission, and staying until we are no longer needed. Nobody wants to leave a job unfinished atleast when there is a chance of success. Yes a sad state of affairs, that we as Canadians can't piont a finger at anyone except ourselfs.

on which piont there seems to be so many of them.

Thats part of the problem, is it you give up way to easily ....Our nations soldiers are doing thier part ensuring that our enemies do not win on the battle field, they are fighting and dying because we as a nation agreed to send them over there....And now they are 2 and guessing themselfs, by buying into this "Untenable" postion everyone is talking about...Thats absolute BS, that is not supporting our troops, thats handcuffing them. Everyone except the soldiers themselfs, we're still in the first period of play and canadians have written off the game already. Afgan is not just a military problem it is a Canadian problem, and Canadians are sitting on the bench with a defeatest attitude....get in the game or pull the entire team off the ice. I've walked the walked in fact i've just completed my second tour in Afgan, and in 2008 will begin my 3 rd tour...when are Canadians going to start walking the walk is my question....

myata: Not uncertainity but furstration. That you are not using all of the facts, to base your opinions, and you are making some big leaps in the ones you are using. I think this where we disagree, is how much force for 9/11 was proportionate, after all it was just not the fact that over 3000 died, but the targets they attacked, and just how easy it was to do seriously damage the US. A clear and heavy handed message had to be given, or face more of these attacks... If the US had said we will defend those scumbags with everything we have then yes, invade the US, not an advisable plan but it fits... The sucesses far out number the failures, Germany, most of europe after WWII was recieving US or allied aid to rebuild, Japan already mentioned, South Korea, Shit even mother Russia is recieving US aid for more than one reason or another, they may not be perfect examples but they are now standing on thier own... It should also be pionted out that these countries took more than 20 years, before they could cut the strings.... Why can't Afgan be given the same time ? Why because it is not growing at the pace our face food culture demands...After 5 years did germany stand up on it's own. The problem with this statement is it's a double edged sword, i can not prove to you that it is going to work, as you can not prove that it will not work. lets give it 10 more years and then decide... The only reason we would pull out of Afgan, is if the people of Canada lost it's will to stay, not because of a military defeat or military actions, but because of it's citizens bought into the "Afgan is a lost cause" BS... and if that happens Canada should seriously re think it's role in world matters.... Thats a big leap on your part, i'm not going to deny that it did not happen, but not on the scale you suggest. The voting process was set up so anyone could vote for anyone they chose without anyone knowing whom they voted for... Give me a break, this is not rocket science, part of the whole election process was an education process on what exactly these elections meant, teams from across the globe were involved, civilian , military, it was a very involved process... And although it may not hold some magical meaning to you, being able to chose thier first leader was magical to them, like i said before many walked for hundards of KM's to voting stations , not at gun piont not under threat but because they wanted to take part, have a say in thier future... As for the the other functions required to support a functioning government, NATO has looked after that providing experts in the area, and training AFgan civilians to do those jobs.... You sell them short, when all your freedoms are suspended for over 30 years of constant war, and dictatorship, you know freedom when you see it, and with those freedoms comes a chance of peace...

myata: The question should be "what is the liberal response "to how many people have to die before we can go to war" the reason i ask is on 9/11 over 3000 americans died, your statement reads like the US did not have a legitimate reason.... As for the unanswered questions , they have clearly been answered you've just not been listening...The Taliban are not the inocent ones in this case, and they got exactly what they sowed. And it is a declaration of war when that country decides it will protect them at all costs. When you invade a country and oust it's government you do have a responsibility for that nation. You need to come to grips with the fact that more Afganis voted in thier elections per capita than Canadians did in our last election, and we are the ones with the tradition, you act like this is a bad thing giving them a option of picking thier leaders...that we the west have overstepped our bounds somehow...you make it sound that they do not want it and we are forceing it on them, which is untrue, the numbers that voted are proof of that. I'm not the one making assumptions you are.

Why is that so hard to accept, After NATO had liberated Afgan from the Taliban as part of that Mandate it was determined to hold a free election, it did that the people of Afgan had decided to elect it's current government.... It is this current government that has asked NATO to provide security and to assist in rebuilding it's nation, not only the infra structure but to assist in establishing law and order, and it's policitical system. It is at this time that NATO switched from being an occuping power to one that was asked to assist..you can't be an occuping force when you've been asked to assist them can you...

Peter F: Why can it not be both reasons, i know of plenty of NATO countries that are not involved in Iraq or Afgan, these countries have alot more to offer than Canada could ever dream of. And yet they will continue to be part of NATO, and have not been treatened with pony up or find a new alliance. kind of tests your theory.

myata: It will change the dynamics of the War, they (taliban) are well aware of the genvenva convention and the protection it offers them regardless if they follow it or not. Although one can say the convention whole existance was to civilize the way we fight, there is no civilization in any war, death is the number one objective, making the other poor bastard die for his country or cause i believe the quote says... Yes Afgan was invaded, it's government of the time was ousted, and we did occupy Afgan....until Afganis voted in thier own government, and it asked for our assistance in rebuilding thier country...that is when NATO stoped being an occuping force. Because you are an elected offical does not give you some majical abilities to make things right again, keeping in mind that most of the infra structure was destroyed, and what was not the Taliban took with them....To assist them in getting on thier feet in a timly fashion means massive foreign aid, and security. We create things that do not have any tradition or history everyday, To Afganis to finally have a say on whom was going to govern them was a huge step, and a freedom they very much enjoy. to make that piont alot of afganis walked over 200 kms thru hostile areas just for the chance to vote....how many Canadians can say they would do that, most would not even drive 200 kms just to vote... Everything and every tradition has a beginning, or a first time.. This comment burns my ass with a 5 foot flame. Why, because as a soldier i pray that before we get our orders to start training, and ship out that our government , the citizens have all sat down and thought out the problem thoughly, that they have wieghed the pros and cons. That being said, the majority of Canada was willing to send combat troops into Afgan, with a clear and pricise mission. To hunt down and kill scum bags, to assist the Afgan government in restoring thier country. That mission still stands today.... As it turns out in our fast food culture it is taking to long, alot of people have said the mission is clouded not clear,and stands no chance of success. WHY is it that those that are serving in afgan, those members of this nation whom we have asked to carry out this task are the only ones that still see it with clear and pricise outlines , and believe that it is very achievable ...even when they know that by staying and continueing with the mission will cost them, repeated tours of duties, time away from there loved ones, and thier lives of thier comrads.

ScottSA: I'm no expert in armour, but I instinctively questioned the assertion that the LII was better than the MIA2, so I started reading an ADF forum about the LII(5-6)s, and the impression I get is that the MIA2s are better than the LII(6)s but more expensive. Link Meaning no disrespect, what is your info based on? Why the disagreement? Is this a Ford vs Chevy thing or are there specific tests concluding that one is better than the other and why? By no means i'm i an expert either, part of my job requires me to know what makes them tick and thier vunerabilities ..based on Experience,IE crawled around both versions, driven in both, had long conversations with crews. tech info, Tech upgrades that are in each. M1A1 1 st production ended in 1985, LeoII A5 1 st production ended in 1999 M1A2 1st production ended in 1992 Leo II A6 1 st production ended in 2001 M1A2SEP 1 st production ended in 1995 Leo II A6EX 1 st production is ongoing The reason i mentioned dates as it would put in ref the actual tech put into each, such as Fire control sys, etc etc M1A2 combat wieght 63,086 kgs..... LeoIIA6 combat wieght 59,700 kgs power to wieght ratio 23.77 HP .... power to wieght ratio 25.12 HP Fuel cap 1907 lts ...... fuel cap 1200 lts Range 426 kms ...... Range 500 kms The above shows that the Leo is lighter, with just as much armour, again new tech advances have save alot of wieght less, wieght is a huge advantage. The leo has more power, which is turned into speed, and power. a huge advantage on the battle field.. Fuel is very important, although the Abrams carries more it's range is less, in fact the leo burns 700 lts less and gets 74 more KMs another huge advantage... the Abrams burns JP-8 which burns hotter than reg dies, producing a huge heat signature, a big disadvantage on the battle field. JP-8 (a/c fuel) is not as stable as dies, something that comes into play when a Sabot round hits the fuel cell, this is a personal preferance i feel safer with 1200 lts of dies fuel than i do with 1900 lt of jet fuel... Other advantages the new leo's come with the L55 barrel, it is just over a meter longer which gives the round more range and accuracy...The Abrams SEP is suppose to install the L55 barrel but i'm unsure if they have... The germans have also developed a whole seris of new rounds which match or beat the US rounds, although the US has pretty much been forced to put more R&D into thier Tank rounds to keep pace so it is only a matter of time before they take the lead again. They have also developed a Urban Leo with a shorter barrel, more top armour etc ..although none are in production... As for test one again'st each other nothing official , but soldiers being soldiers always comparing and testing again'st each other. Canada already has experiance with older german tech and Leo's, and will only bennifit a choose to go with another leo...Not a big factor but one worth mentioning. You mention sand, the Abrams engine is a turbine eng and sand, and the fine powder reaks havoc on such engines, i believe thier fix was one of better filtration, very costly , and requires constant maintance, unlike a dies eng which is not as effected, that being said, that sand and that dust will eventually clog anything. Let me know if these links work, i got them off a DND site, and can print them up if required. Abrams My Webpage LeoII My Webpage

double post.

Myata: Perhaps your right, why should we expect them to honor an accord or convention that they have not signed or actually believe in. Which brings us to this question if they are not bound by the convention, should we be bound within thier country, we should 'nt be seen as trying to overly influence them to western ideas or moral values, instead deal with them in they way they respect and honor...torture , stoning, cutting off limbs , public hangings and executions thats what they understand, putting heads on pikes for public display that should get thier attention. Lets not forget why we as Canadians thought this mission has an honorable one. To assist a nation in need of our help, to perhaps come out of all this strife with more freedom and rights than they had. We were asked by the legimate government of Afgan , one that was elected by the people of afgan to assist them in rebuilding thier nation....So how can you declare that we are interfering or creating tension that result in the loss of life... By finding another way to deal with these societies, what you mean is to bury our heads in the sand, and only periodically stick our heads out to see if all our feathers are still attached to our asses... terrorism is effective because we let it, someone needs to take a stand, why not Canada.

M.Dancer: This info should not come as a surprise nor is it new info. NATO has clearly stated it's intentions during it's operations in Afgan, and the Taliban are trying to undermine them by attacking those accomplishments... Are they commiting war crimes, according to the genva convention they are , but then again they did not sign it, nor do they abide by it. The only surprise is that this group is actually pionting it out for the rest of the world to see, most of the time they spend researching accounts of abuses done by the west, like US prisons, prisoner abuse etc...

DogOnPorch: Actually the Leo's that are going to be leased are the Leo IIA6M the very latest in main battle tanks, much better in all aspects in regards to the M1 abrams be it the A1 or A2 models. The tanks we are going to purchase are old leoIIA4, that will be upgraded (torn apart and rebuilt) to what level A5 or A6 standards has not been released yet. but they will out perform any Abrams on the market today. Don't get me wrong the Abrams is a good tank, but even it's A2 SEP model is outdated and does not compare to the new LeoIIA5 or A6 models. When it comes to Armoured veh design Germany has always been on top of the pack, and judging by our purchasing practices these tanks will be in service for some time to come...so it actually a good buy, just not enough of them...

These guys are very vocal about thier expliots, and they are very teritorial about where they operate, records are kept, intel gathered, evidence collected , i'm not talking about the small frys here i'm talking about warlords, area commanders, etc....as for the hellfire a lazer guided wpn, most likly being guided by boots on the ground, whom have had eyes on the target , lite the target up with the lazer...and it's almost certain that it will hit the target 99 % of the time...thats pretty certain....I've been within 80 meters of 2 hellfires hitting a 2 floor mud building, and can say with 100 % certainity the target was destroyed, along with my hearing for 2 days... As for the others they are called targets of oportunity, like 3 guys carrying a heavy machine gun, or RPG's although these wpns can be used to hunt, it's pretty certain they are hunting NATO soldiers, (although pretty meaty not very tasty)and are engaged without warning.

Close , with one exception, a terrorist can be killed because he is a known terrorist, with a proven record of terrorist activites...for example a head of a large cell or group can be targeted and killed, if deemed for the greater good, or he's to hard to get at, or a military operation would prove to costly...example of this is recently a US UAV fired a hellfire missle at a known Taliban leader inside Pakistan... or a sniper team killing suspect taliban pers carring a heavy machine gun through the mountains...those type of targets are not given a warning just killed... Anyone including taliban or some purple guy with warts on his dick that surrenders or is taken into custody is treated according to the convention and our ROE's. that means it's illegal to shoot them.

Rue: These units already operate in Afgan, made up of spec ops units from across the globe, Thier exploits are not made public because of thier nature, but they do happen around the clock 365 days a year. Conventional forces are used to promote a presence, handle much larger operations, and do the PRT side of the house. both are needed side by side if we are to effectively put these guys out of bussiness. Yes it does make them sitting ducks, as it is almost imposiable to stop someone determined enough to blow themselfs up, or from digging huge holes and filling them with explosives for us to run over... but on the other side of the coin if they are concentrating on hurting us then they are leaving the Afgan population. alone. But thats not all we are doing standing around and waving our flag or handing out maple leaf pins. Coventional forces are very active in hunting these scum bags down, modern tech is a wonderful thing and you'll have to trust me when i say thier cas list is alot longer than ours... These guys over thier a not just a bunch of goat herders, most have been fighting since they could pick-up a wpn, and they are good at what they do. They are very adaptable, changing thier tactics daily...but thier are not 10 ft tall and bullet proof, they can be killed and are being killed. we are making progress and flushing them out of the country...just this winter they were bragging about having 10,000 men and a 1000 sucide bombers ready for the spring offensive...well spring has come and gone in Afgan, and nothing but a few IED's. Why is it that the soldiers know exactly what is going on in Afgan, they are very clear about what we are doing over there. and all of them support this mission....i mean they are the ones with clearly the most to gain from pulling out of Afgan, but they are the ones that want to stay, they are the ones that come back over and over again, they are the ones that shoulder thier comrads lifeless bodies and carry them one last time to an awaiting herc. They are the ones who's voices go unheard... It's very frustrating for soldiers to hear in our media that there still Canadians out there that don't know why or what we are doing in Afgan. and it's frustrating to find out that more than half of Canadians don't agree with the mission....It's not like our military woke up one day and said lets ship out our troops to some pissed off country and make a name for ourselfs. It was the people of Canada who done that in fact a majority of Canadians decided "what a noble mission", and now they hide behind that famous statement "things have changed,or we were suppose to be just handing out teddy bears, and candy, not fighting....who in the frig hands needs an armoured fighting veh to hand out candies ... I don't know how many times i heard soldiers stand up and shout " when are these people going to wake the fuke up "at our TV in our mess.

Fat Freddie: These guys are legal targets " meaning they are known terrorist that it has been proven they are guilty of terrorism".... and can be engaged with military force as per the genva convention, and Canadian law within the confines of the operations area, meaning Afgan. That being said they are given every oportunity to surrender with out incident. if they do not then deadly force is used. our soldiers do not wantonly kill taliban suspects every shooting or killing is investagated. Those terrorist in Canada can be engaged by RCMP or military anti terror pers, however under Canadian laws. And like any other arrest of any criminal , that is made in Canada if they choose to fight with deadly force then there is a good chance they will die. Again they don't wontonly kill any terrorist muslim or other wise. deadly force is always a last resort.

Yes, sometimes the use of force or violence is necessary to solve some of our every day problems, but when a government or nation decides to use force to solve it's problems the results are never good and come at a cost that far out wiegh the benifits. That being said there are plenty of reasons that we deem worth using force and are willing to pay a cost for...but the cost has always been higher than we expect, and in most cases the cost is piontless after a certain piont has been reached. A good example of this is the allied bombing of cities during WWII, it will be discussed forever if these actions did contribute to bringing the war to an early end. If they did not then it was a needless slaughter of many thousands. I guess your statement of "all wars are not piontless slaughters" depends on who you ask, and what cost they have paided. As a soldier that has seen war up close, i've struggled with this question every minute of everyday when i was in Afgan,and continue to struggle with it at home..Were my actions and use of force contributing to end the Afgan's struggle in search of peace...Yes they were...But was there piontless slaughters, again Yes there were, operation Mudusa piont in fact, hundards of taliban died, did it make a difference, i hope it did, but i'm not sure it did have an effect, only time and history will say.

One can not compare the two, yes both are worth mention in our history but one is a major event with a great cost to the nation, and the other a minor event. Yes alot of those that enlisted were british born, and they do make up the majority, but lets not forget the others that contributed to our nations role in WWI. Such as the many Scottish, Irish, that provided countless of Bn's along with Bn's raised from the Danes, hugarians, poles, italians and many others. Bn's were formed for many different reasons, such as the Bantam BN's made up of men under 5' 2'', or the Bn from winnipeg made up of men abstaining from alchol. Not to mention the 13 Bn's made up of french Canadians. One important note that should be present although Canada did not have much say in going to war, it did have control over it's contribution to the war. One has to also has to remember that most Canadians had come to Canada some 15 years prior during the great migration. to say that they were not Canadian is making a big leap, i will agree that most did feel an alligance to britian The main reason that vimy battle is so important to our history, is prior to the battle Canadian units, divs, were always fighting under direct command of other nations, such as the france and britain. It was these actions that upset alot of Canadian volunteers, being used peicemeal to reinforce other nations armies, being lead by british officers and Senior NCO's, but as the war progressed this started to change. And by the time Vimy came around alot (not all) but most were Canadian...It is here on the battle field that these men stop being British,scottish,irish, etc and started being Canadian. Vimy ridge is the first time Canadians were to fight as a whole formation, using tactics designed and invented by Canadians for the first time. The battle represented alot of first times for Canada. There are a lot of reasons why this one battle is a turning piont in our history. The allieds had tried so many times to take this piece of ground at the cost of more than 600,000 cas. It was deemed imposable to take.. it took canada just 3 days of battle so the event it self is important...The tactics that were used to take the hill were state of the art for the day, rolling barages, counter bat fire, sound ranging, arial recon, arial photography, the list is long most of these tactics are still used today in modern warfare, and they were invented and used effectivily by Canadians....The battle of vimy is marked as the beginning of the end, for the germans and would bring the war to an end that much quicker....Lets not also forget that many Canadians still had families in these countries that were effected by this war, a big incentive not only for recruitment but for ending the war quickly.... And the most important piont although we forced into war by being a colony we still had the final say as a nation as to what our contribution would be, a nation of under 8 mil manged to supply over 600,000 troops over the course of the war, that has got to speak volumes to our character, and who we are as a people. Yes it does , but then again so do most nations in the new world. the battle of vimy is marked as the turning piont in which Canada was on the road to becoming it's own nation. No longer made up of mostly brits, but made up of Canadians. Who indentified themselfs as Canadians. The perlude to the vimy attack, I would not say naive, but rather that event shows the importance of having ones own government, a vioce in how your people or soldiers are used on the battle field. I think the conscription crisses is over blown, of the 620,000 Canadians that served during WWI only 108,000 were concripted, of that number only 48,000 were sent to europe and of that number only 24,000 actually seen combat. Yes it did divide english Canada and french Canada, as thier two sets of values clashed, the french refused to fight for the british, and felt betrayed or atleast thinking they owed france nothing. it was thier refusal to contribute to the war that divided this country, unless you can prove other wise. at the time French speaking population made up over 30 % of Canada's total population, To which they provided only 4 % of Canada's entire war contribution. We were a british colony after all, and by law once Britian declared war so had we, although we did maintain control on what our contribution was going to be, Quebec had an oppurtunity to prove it was part of this nation, and not just a separate part of it with an entirily different culture. But they missed that boat, and by doing so refused to take that step to being Canadian instead they opted for something different. To these pionts i agree, i would go on step further and state all wars are piontless slaughters, to which we suffer more than what is gained. But that is mans history is it not. It is a part of our history, nothing can change that, celebrating it serves 2 purposes it reminds us of who we are and what sacrifice we paid to get there. Vimy monument was not built to glorify war, but to remind us of it's cost, perhaps to make us all pause and reflect, before we jump on that band wagon of war again. They are all the same, it all comes down to Canadians answering someone elses call for help, and doing what we think is right for all of us.

Thats a good question, we can live our lives enjoying the freedoms and rights that they can not or have not been able to do for themselfs. I think for as many faults that Canada has we are one of the few countries that still allow us to do that. I think more than anything else we need to do that, not an easy task considering todays world. They've pass the torch to many generations , and although we have not fought, or contributed anything to the actual battles, we have picked up the torch and carried it. ensuring that Canada remains a nation with the freedoms and rights they fought for...thats something to be proud of. I understand what your saying,you feel if you have not contributed then you can't be proud, or take the moment as your own. But thats part of the soldiers contribution to the nation, to fight so others do not have to, to uphold our rights and freedoms so others may enjoy them, to pass the torch on to the next generation. Because if Canadians abandon all that it will have been for nothing. and thier sacrafice will mean nothing...I don't know many soldiers that would mind us sharing thier moment, and being proud of them and our nation.

hiti: Not true, defense has never been a minor let alone major issue for Canadians. Our soldiers have older equipment because that is what Canadians where willing to give them, end of story... As for the cold war ending , give me a break, even at the hieght of the cold war we only had 4 small brigades, a comparable airforce and navy, shit even luxenburg had a larger military than we did, exactly where is luxenburg anyways....4 small brigades to defend the 2 and largest nation in the world... To put that in prespective, we are having problems suppling troops and equipment to Afgan and we now have 3 under manned brigades... We are they way we are because Canadians wanted it that way...although that is slowly changing today, we as a nation can only piont the finger at our selfs. As for the Budget deficit did you mean deficit, or net federal debt, as they are two differnet animals? OK ...you must be a liberal, yes they did purchase the LAV III for the military, what you forgot to mention was they did not purchase enough of the vehs, or enough of the add on armour kits, or enough parts, Ammo, etc etc and the LAV's were only one of many much needed pieces of equipment needed for the Afgan mission let alone the defence of Canada.... but you should check the TO&E that the liberals did send us over to Afgan with, it includes the Ilitis jeep, the LSVW, MLVW, all light vehs, and not enough extra amour kits for Lavs or HLVW's.... Don't climb to high on that liberal horse, inregards to our nations military. The liberals had 12 or more years to look after DND and chose not to. the Conv have done more in one year for the military than the liberals entire reign. Thats what truely pisses the liberals off.... Your not interested in hearing about the mission, you've already made up your mind, along with most of the liberals, the DND web site has dozens of examples, along with most of the major media outlets. All it takes is a little effort to find.

geoffrey: Why we should be proud, not just of the accomplishments at vimy, but our entire sacrafice in WWI, which is why the Vimy monument was erected. We started the War as a dominon of the British empire, our policical masters had little say in how our own war effort was to be used. We ended the War,strenghtened ,united, as Canadians instead just immigrants from other nations...fighting under the dominon of Canada ensign as Canadians, our polictical masters had a seat at the table of global polictics, and thier voices were being heard....Thats something to be proud of. At the time Canadians were made up of people from across the globe, having left thier parent countries for a better life, coming to Canada to carve a better future for thier families. They risked all of this, including thier lives to fight for king and country and ideals they believe in at the time...To risk all that is something to be proud of... Although we did not have a hand in it we can still be proud of the event and those that did take part, just as we are proud of the famous Russian/ Canada hockey seris in 1972. The event still shaped our nation, and defines us as Canadians. Your right people don't have to die to define our nation or who we are, but in this instance they did and we should stand tall, and honour those that were involved and be proud that they called themselfs Canadians. I think you are confusing the issue, Taking a life of another being is never a proud moment, but in combat it is neccessary to achieve the end result, be it peace or an end to hostile actions of another nation.. Anybody how has been or seen war up close will be changed forever, it's mans own recreation of hell, and what it will be like. Depending on how you are looking at it, What Canadians did that day was end the continual allied losses trying to break this strong hold, no longer will thousands of allied soldiers need to perish in taking this stratigic ground...Thier sacrafice marked the beginning of the end of the war...And anything that would stop the slaughter of millions is something to be proud of...Film footage of soldiers on top of the ridge show them as jublant, proud of what they had done, why can't the rest of Canada be proud of them and what they accomplished. I know as a soldier, these brave men of vimy have set the bar and standards of most of my training i do today. I'm proud of them, i have nothing but respect for thier bravery,courage,thier fortitude..Ya i'm proud of them and what they did for our nation. And i think in your own way so are you.

Yes I'm aware of what it is, but it is also part of our history, and would help put into Canadian context just what and whom is classified as insurgents, and what tactics are to be employed on them. The info that was provided was not done so to profile a race, or religion etc but to provide a canadian example. There are lots of government publications that do this to explain context or meaning of what is written... as for polictically smart , just how much weight does the mohawk warriors have anyways, i'm guessing but i'd say next to none...So what is the problem, perhaps it's canadians not being able to handle the fact there is a canadian group mentioned in the manual. I'd did not say that. The mention of the mohawk warriors is not PC because of what exactly? And by the same token, i have not heard a clear reason why it should be removed, other than it pissed off a few mohawk warriors...Do we alter all our publications , or for that matter any federal documents where do we draw the line.

Apparently you can't stand the fact that soldiers do contribute more to this nation than the ordinary citizen. And it pisses you off that soldiers are respected more for doing it. I guess since your paying the bills i should ask you why most of the military equipment is older than both of us together. That i should be pionting the finger at the taxpayer and asking why ? is the military in the state it is today....Or perhaps you should stop taking credit for something you have no control over....that includes paying my wages, new equipment etc... Everyone in Canada pays taxes including soldiers, it's all used in the common good of the nation, and only a small portion of those taxes collected are used to pay our wages, purchases new equipment. So before you fall off that high horse your on, take 2 seconds out of your busy day, and let this sink in, Our nations military provides more to this nation than this nation has provided the military...think about that next time some SAR tech risks his life dragging your ass out of the ocean, or our soldiers fight forest fires , floods, Ice storms, let alone carring out our nations forgien policy thru out the globe....Our nations soldiers don't ask for much... just your respect, something they have earned many times over...don't worry it won't cost you a dime...

Peter F: No the manual is still very useful. But will not contain all the useful referances. Perhaps you can explain to me why government publications need to be censored, and sanitized, and publications made for public consumption are not. But it is the Canadian way not to piss anyone off, to bend and please every one. Don't like being mentioned in a counter insurgent manual then don't practice insurgent warfare. Mad_Michael: Now you gone and done it , uncovered a secret government /military plot to get rid of peace protesters and native protesters. Perhaps you can give us a list of lawful protests in the last 20 years that the government has ordered the military in to bust up...shit give us a list of unlawful ones lets see if there is a pattern here.