Army Guy

The piont is giving the soldiers a ref piont or example of what cion ops are. The tactics are the same wether your black,white or purple with warts on your dick. It is sanitization, the manaul was written by soldiers for soldiers to give them a better understanding of Coin ops, it was not made for public consumption, they used a good "canadian" example something soldiers could relate to or have some knowledge of ...Now that is has been made public it has a few people panties in a knot. and now it's going to be changed, how is that not being sanitized...

Melanie: I just finsihed my tour in Afgan, the hardest part for me was not the combat, not the heat, or anything else, but missing my family and my kids. it would not be uncommon to shed a few tears after talking to them on the phone. So ya i would say your dad felt the same way.

According to the minister of National defense the new manual will not include any ref to mohawk warriors or any group. Once again the military has been sanitized for polictical correctness. This is a manual that prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more. And if our government decides that your form of protest, requires direct military intervention then one could expect the military to use tactics and doctrine out of this manual. It is not designed to stop all forms of protest, it's designed to prepare our troops for protests that get out of control, such as OKA for instance....when you pick up arms ,kill a officer of the law, there is a problem, and you've taken it from a protest allowed by law to an unlawful one that endangers canadian citizens and needs to be dealt with.

It is a good read, It brings back alot of memories, good and bad.

Whats so hard to believe is that a warship,designed and crewed not to get surprised ... should have been on a higher alert status, ensuring that this thing did not happen, got surprised by a bunch of amatures. hence why i said sleeping at the switch....

Your right i do not know exactly what happened, but lets face some reality here, the brits have already proven twice thier exact location, once by sat, and once by photo of GPS. which would cross out the brits being in Iranian waters... so thier either fell as sleep at the switch or willing gave the iranians the sailors, or the brits are lying ..you pick.. So now you are speculating now as well

over a mile inside Iraqi waters, at that distance nothing happens in seconds, atleast not on the water. And if the Iranians regularily are operating in Iraqi waters there is a problem. I'm just finding it difficult to believe it was that easy to snatch those sailors right under a modern frigs nose and nothing happen.

DogOnPorch: Actually going to or coming back from does not change anything, The alert level does not change until all are back on board. IE everyone is still tracking contacts, helo still in the air, the entire crew still at thier stations. How is that speculating ? someone fell asleep at the switch and now iran has hostages...

I think the below quote describes best describes how a majority of Canadians feel. How i feel, is another matter being in the military i've traveled alot, not just the shit holes of the world, but most Europe, and some of africa...To me what it means to be Canadian, it means living in a nation that has more freedom, more basic human rights than most nations. It means i have access to oportunities that most do not, it means raising a family in a diverse enviroment, It means i can walk any where in the world with my head held up high and never having to say sorry. It means hearing our national athem at a hockey game and feeling my chest swell with pride. it means alot of things.... But it also means being part of a nation that has a proud and colorful history, It means i have the chance to wear our countries flag on my shoulder everyday, and be respected for doing it every where i go... Like i said i've seen alot of differnet countries and i'm always glad to come home to Canada.

Argus: No, i'm aware of the restrictive nature of the waterway, i've seen the maps and pictures supplied by another poster. What i was saying was ... That As a skipper of a frig, one would assume , i know thats a bad thing but in this case almost SOP, that prior to launching the Boarding party, his combat center is at a higher alert status...the combat center has indentified all surface contacts, and classified them ie friendly, hostile, Iranian etc etc...ensured his boarding party was armed and had good comms, before leaving the boat, as an extra measure he launches a armed lynx to act as over watch.... Now if those already indentified contacts marked as Iranian started to move pick up speed, thier course could be plotted and indentified well in advance...I guess the piont is nothing could happen on that water way that the frig did not know of within seconds of it happening...plenty of time to have ordered the helo into a blocking postion, and have the boarding party disembark for the frig.... An armed naval Lynx could have sent a clear message, be it by over the radio, or by hovering directly in front of the lead boat, or by a machine gun burst in front of the ship...anything to let them know that they were serious about defending the boarding party...As it sounds they watched the whole thing, and did nothing....It is not clear wether the skipper just failed in his duty to protect his crew, or clearly did not want to provoke the incident further and risk his boat... NATO roe's for the area have not changed self defense is clearly a no brainer , no permission is needed to open fire. And he clearly had the upper hand in regards to fire power...It only takes less than a minute for the combat center to track and engage numerous targets at the same time...That being said both parties knew exactly where they were, the ships nav sys requires it, and in waters like that try explaining that to your boss, how you grounded a multi mil dollar gun boat on the flats, or sand bar.... But you are right about the lynx, i'm sure they won't being caught with thier pants down a second time...

Something still stinks here, even with the frig a few klicks away, i'm sure it's combat center had a clear picture of all surface contacts, including those Iranian gunboats, and were plotting thier courses. And knew ahead of time they were headed towards thier boarding party... Knowing all that where they lacks in thier security measures, "thinking the Iranians don't have the nuts to carry outthis" although i was not there... as a skipper i would have atleast notified the boarding party of possiable threats in the area, and would have had the Lynx check out the contacts...atleast have the helo inform the iranians that they were now in Iraqis waters...and when they got to close to the boarding party inform the gunboats of the operation underway"boarding party" and warn them to keep thier distance... ROE's have been mentioned here, And i bet a weeks pay that at the very minimum it includes the right to self defense...Siezing a rib full of sailors would definatly fall into that catagory... So yes the skipper is going to have to answer some tough questions, why did he not have the Lynx move into an aggresive posture until boarding party could withdraw ? and yes that would include a warning shot if the situation escalated... that could have also included the use of the frigs wpns systems...I'm glad i'm not in his shoes...

My only question about this whole affair, is what was the skipper of the frig thinking about letting his boarding party be siezed by a few Iranian gunboats. I'm not a naval boarding party expert, but the frig should have not been more than 500 meters from the boarding party in the first place....and they should have known well head of time that the iranians gunboats were on route to intercept them... And why did he not inform the iranian gunboats to keep thier distance or be fire upon...i mean a modern frigate could have easily handled the gunboats....Can someone out there with a navy back ground explain this to us...

AshNazg: One can not make up excuses for countries ruled by brute force, as there are plenty of made up middle eastern countries whom have chosen a different path. i might add made up around the same time as Iraq that did not rule with the same brutality as sadam did. So your saying that it's OK for sadam to beat his kids,or it was nessicary for this brutality because iraqis can not live with each other... it's ok that the desert is full of unmarked grave sites victims of these so called beatings, all done in the name of keeping his kids in line...But he did provide basic education and his jails were free from criminals.. Come on...lets tell the whole story here ....siezing another country thru military force does not call for someone to get thier thier hands slapped.... Yes he did keep them in check in fact he used chemical warfare wiping out entire villages, and when not using poison gas, he used modern military eqipment such as attack helos ,tanks, and arty. You've made it very clear, that until every Iraqis is willing to embrace democracy we in the west should leave them to thier own devices, bury our heads in the sand and wait to see what becomes of it. Much like Britian is dealing with Iran.... This statement says volumes about your postion in ref to the whole middle east problem.

AshNazg: Then your orginal post should have placed the blame on the American people and not just it's government and it's soldiers. So i take it you've denouced your US citizenship, or you have dual citizenship, an act in itself is a form of protest or action...more than most have taken, That being said one would be hard pressed to find a country that finances or supports everything that everyone of it's citizens believes in. unless one is willing to become global citizen. I want to be clear, i'm not judging you, your doing what you think is right for you and your family, much like those US soldiers you've talked about, painting them all with one brush is not for us to decide. Yes, he knew how to rule thru fear, and intimidation...but then again so can anyone..It takes a person with some leadership skills to run a democracy. Are you saying that all the Iraqis or for that matter most middle eastern countries are not capable of becoming or are ready to become democracies and need to be ruled with an iron fist enforced by threats of violence....if not then how should they be governed ? Even some of the middle eastern nations have admitted that Sadam and his band of thugs were not exactly a stabilizing force within the middle east...Kuwait, and iran would be examples of that... So how is the west or for that matter all democractic countries to deal with these countries, do we bury our heads in the sand and let them have free rein to do as they please....and hope that some form of humanity developes soon.

AshNazg: According to your reasoning, then every american citizen must bear the same responsibility, as they allowed thier government to carry out thier actions, just like each american soldier did..Why just pin this on two groups, the government and military, do they not serve the american people. or are you blaming them ( the Military) because they did not stand up and inform the government that this was an illegal action and they would not take part... I mean lets face it, how many out there thinks that the world would be a better place with Sadam in power in Iraq. "Your words not mine", my piont was rather that you hold those in the US military to a higher standard than you set for yourself, you blame them for following illegal orders, not being free thinking men, when you yourself are just as guilty on all pionts. Thats pretty serious when you've lost all faith in your country or it's people, i say that because i could not fathom denouncing my country because of one man, or one political party....take the liberals under critien for instance.... I'm curious to know why you've chosen this form of protest "left the country"? whats the next step in your protest ? For anything to change it must come from within, watching from the sidelines is not going to make that happen. And one person can make a difference

AshNazg: Most of your post concentrates on slagging the US military, and it's soldiers. and mentions little of those that truely controls that dept. And you pat yourself on the back for leaving the US, leaving the problem behind, perhaps to come back when things change. when in reality your lack of action is no better than those soldiers who called them selfs free thinkers, Running is not the answer, many of americans have stayed and stood thier ground and have challanged americans direction. That does make you an armchair theorist.

hiti: dnd Yes, that may of been our government (of the day) choice in words to describe our nations mission to it's own people. But below is a list of significant events, events that had to be authorized by our government of the day "the Liberal party, funny how a majority of them are combat missions, and not humanitarian missions. Proving that Canadian soldiers were in combat in large numbers under the liberal government . So i may have gotten operation Anaconda and Harpoon mixed up that does not change the fact that Canadian soldiers were involved in large combat operations, at the begining of our deployment to Afgan. Regardless of how the liberal party spin this, Canadian soldiers were involved in taking the fight to the Taliban. And that these type of combat missions far out numbered the humanitarian ones as promised by the liberals... Operation ANACONDA: During March 2002, members of the 3 PPCLI Battle Group were in the mountains of Paktia Province east of Gardez on Op ANACONDA, a U.S.-led coalition effort to search the mountains for Al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters, capture them, and destroy their shelters. The Canadian contingent comprised 16 soldiers, including six snipers and an emergency extraction force of medical, security and transport personnel with vehicles specialized for winter operations. These soldiers came under fire and engaged the enemy; as a result, some Al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters were killed. The coalition force met with determined resistance, and the enemy demonstrated that they were well organized and well supplied. Throughout Op ANACONDA, the Canadian sniper teams were noted for the deadly accuracy with which they suppressed enemy mortar and heavy machine-gun positions. They are credited with preventing or stopping attacks that could have taken the lives of many coalition soldiers. Operation HARPOON: In the early hours of March 13, 2002, the coalition launched a separate offensive operation in roughly the same region as Op ANACONDA. This new mission, called Op HARPOON, was a joint Canadian-American assault using land and air forces to eliminate a specific pocket of Taliban and Al-Qaeda resistance. The land component was a battalion-sized mixed Canadian and American force under the tactical command of Lieutenant-Colonel Pat Stogran, the commanding officer of the 3 PPCLI Battle Group. On March 14, 2002, LCol Stogran's Canadian reconnaissance troops led one of his American platoons to a cave-and-bunker complex where the Americans proceeded to destroy several bunkers. Op HARPOON was completed on March 19, 2002. The Tarnak Farm Incident: After Op HARPOON, the 3 PPCLI Battle Group returned to camp at Kandahar International Airport to resume their security duties and train for other taskings. On April 17, 2002, an aerial bomb was accidentally dropped during a live-fire exercise at Tarnak Farm, a designated training area about 5 km south of the Kandahar airfield. Four 3 PPCLI soldiers were killed and eight others were injured. The Minister of National Defence convened a Board of Inquiry to investigate the "Tarnak Farm incident", as it is now known, and portions of the Board's final report are now public. Operation TORII: On May 4, 2002, the coalition forces in Afghanistan launched Op TORII, a three-day operation in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan conducted by LCol Pat Stogran in command of an international task force that included about 400 Canadian soldiers Their mission was to find Taliban and Al-Qaeda cave complexes, gather information about terrorist operations in the area, and destroy the cave complexes to prevent terrorists from using them in the future. Burial sites discovered during Op TORII yielded DNA evidence with potential intelligence value. Zobol Province: Between June 30, 2002, and July 4, 2002, most of the 3 PPCLI Battle Group was deployed in Zobol Province, about 100 km northeast of Kandahar, to establish a coalition presence there for the first time. During this deployment, the Canadians and the Afghan National Army conducted a sweep operation in the Shin Key Valley that produced information about recent Al Qaeda and Taliban activities. They also recovered several rockets, fostered relations with the governor of the province, and distributed humanitarian aid (e.g., blankets, food, school supplies) to local people. Repatriation: On July 13, 2002, the 3 PPCLI Battle Group ceased operations and began preparing to return to Canada. Following a brief stay in Guam, part of the planned reintegration process, the soldiers arrived in Edmonton, Alberta, on July 28, 2002, and July 30, 2002. The soldiers not based in Edmonton then continued on to their homes in Winnipeg, Manitoba; Kingston, Ontario; and Trenton, Ontario. Once again the decission to move and take on the now "The Combat mission" in the south was taken by the liberal party. And since Harper did not take power until feb 2006, how is it his fault, how is it him appeasing the bush government. That would make your statement below false would it not. DND On October 18, 2005, Operation ATHENA ended with the withdrawal of the Canadian reconnaissance squadron from ISAF, and the end of five deployments of CF personnel to the Kabul area since August 2003, when the Canadian government first made a commitment to help the international community maintain a safe and secure environment in and around Kabul. On November 29, 2005, the last Canadian material assets were moved and shipped out to Kandahar, and Camp Julien was officially handed over to the Afghan Ministry of Defence. You are trying to rewrite the part of history that clearly explains that the liberals sent us to afgan under the disguise of humanitarian work, but actually approved the use of it's soldiers in mostly combat missions. it was not until the mission moved to Kabul where Canadian soldiers actually did more humanitarian work than combat, and even then it was still involved in combat operations. You are also trying to shift the blame on the harper government for sending our troops down into the southern portion of Afgan were combat mission are the norm, when history clearly shows us that it was the Liberal party that made those decisions... Sorry i did not have any fancy web site for you, or any pictures for you to browse thru. Just the facts.

I agree CB, that we should not feed the trolls, that said it irks me to no avail when they post info that is not true, or false...and i don't do it to feed the trolls but to ensure that the other posters don't take this false info and start to believe in it. It's a catch 22 sit, but i've got lots of time and patients.

Apart from the bashing that does go on, a debate is an oportunity to teach someone something or learn something new, or just to vent and share your opinon is that not postive. This is another example of why your bashing, all your interested in is anything negative about the mission, Of all the events you've read about the mission you can not come up with one postive thing that our nation or our soldiers have done, why is that ? Instead you concentrate on just the negative pionts such as civilian deaths, you've taken bits and pieces of those reports twisted them to fit your own auguments... you've taken your cues from others on this board such as Catchme, and under the cover of "just adding to the debate" have made accusations that you have no knowledge of, no understanding of, and no experiance with....using it all to slander the mission, the people involved , or anything related to Afgan. But really where do people like you stand on any issue, You've proven you have the balls to come onto a public forum and voice your opinion, and slander all those that disagree, but what else have you done about this self proclaimed problem or problems you say we have...Have you written our government, your MP, have you been involved in marches, protests that sort of thing, have you really researched these problems and come up with viable solutions, would you be willing to get off your armchair and put your solutions into action....NO...why not, because that would mean you would have to confront people like me, real people in a real enviroment...who actually did something about thier convictions and believes. people who took action... Want to add to the debate then do your research, know your topic of discussion and prepare to back up your posts with facts. you've done no of this as of yet...

Jenny: the inquiry had served it's purpose, those guilty were charged, it's recommandations were forwarded, and the government shut down a complete Regt. What more did you expect ? and how was it protecting soldiers involved , your words not mine. It does when everything you bring up or post is negitive. hence the question what has our nations soldiers done to piss you off ? i think it's a fair question, when taken in context with your continous bashing. That and your misrepresenting the facts to suit your claims....

Canadian Blue Jenny have you been cheating on me, i thought i was the only one to get your speacial PM's.... CB..i think she likes men in uniform...

Andrew: Then why bring up this piont at all ? The use of military force is the result of failed diplomacy, when talks fail to produce results. And according to your definition one would have to have a cystal ball, and already know the outcome of the use of military force (and only when the mission is achievable should it be supported. "your words right") I'm curious if our nations leaders used that same advice during our past conflicts, such as WWI, WWII or Korea. And in keeping with those same examples did we not learn anything from them, WWI we learned that impossing impossable surrender terms did in fact lead us into WWII, and did we not learn that to the victor goes the responsiablity of rebuilding that nation, Germany case in piont, was rebuilt from the ground up... My piont here being there is no way of determining the outcome of the use of military force, and the victor does have a responsiablity of rebuilding these nations or face having to do it all over again. You've already written of Afgan as a lost cause "mainly because of Pakistan" to which is not true, solutions exist to accomplish this mission without direct support of Pakistan, they maybe not showing the results we in our "fast food " mindset would like but they are showing results. As for it being a waste of life, I've served there, i know many of those that have paid with thier lives, to get this job done, and not one of them would say thier sacrafice has been wasted. in fact it's insulting to suggest that thier lifes have been wasted. This war is not being faught in Afgan but in our media, in the world media across the globe, The Taliban have no hope in defeating us militarily, in open combat, or in insurgency warfare despite of what they say, or do.. Where they could defeat us is right here in Canada, the battlefield is right inside your TV set, and the casualities are our opinons, for or again'st this mission, and when our nation is divided so is the support needed to win this fight..Want to win this mission then change Canadians opinions, as a united nation the taliban and all those other terrorist groups stand no chance at all.

Hiti: It's a good thing history is recorded and filed away for all to see, or we would have to start believing all this liberal garbage on how our mission changed when the CPC took power. Remember operation Anaconda, our first big operation in Afgan, just for some of you liberals who believe all that liberal preaching Operation Anaconda involved a large portion of the PPCLI Battle group, thier mission was to hunt down taliban groups not to offer humanitarian , diplomatic, financial or legislative aid, but to instead, relocate taliban elements from this planet so they could sit by allah's side with those virgins he's promised...PPCLI did this liberal tasking with honor, infact setting world records for sniping,and being awarded US bravery medals, bronze and silver stars...OH wait there is more the decission to move into southern Afgan was made before the CPC took office, which begs the question did Mr. Harper really have that much influence in the liberal cabinet, or was he really just caring on with a program already written by the liberals. So who really set the tone for this mission, was it really Mr. Harper, or was it those teflon liberals. OH OH Alex ...Who is the liberal party....

Jenny: Bullshit...again those that were guilty were charged, and sentenced, and an entire Regt was disbanded, explain how that was protecting those soldiers involved ? What is it about soldiers that piss you off ? your not bayleafs sister are you ?

I think it had every thing to do with jealousy, these lossers were jealous that this man had been honored by his country, and was again recieving all the attention at the bar. Being drunk does not excuse thier behavior, they knew exactly what they were doing, beating the shit out of a man whom we as a nation honored for bravery.... There cowards, and i hope the town takes this matter into thier own hands by laying a good beating on these cowards... in fact i hope these lossers get beaten daily for a long time to come.