Army Guy

DO i really, Am i the one jumping to conclusions, lets start with the actual problem first, Does anyone have any evidence other than here say that any prisoners captured by Canadian troops were abused, is there any evidance that those prisoners handed over to the afganis government were abused, or tortured. Or again is it all here say. rumours...And yet we support our troops so much, that we take this here say evidence and harden our opinions, It's got to be true....The main problem as i see it is we are guilty of not doing follow up checks on these prisoner, and relying on other agencies to do this process for us.... The other piont i was responding to was your statement " We are not a society that cannot care about our troops AND human rights. We are multifaceted and can walk and chew gum at the same time. Let me ask you this how is the above statement being a harper parot, although i deserve that one, tit for tat. i was responding as a soldier who while in Afgan "Canadians" accused us of abusing Prisoners, they responded by demanding a national inquiry, they responded by demanding a full inquiry into every concerning our treatment of prisoners.... Like they did not trust us as far as they could throw us...one day they hail you as a hero, the next they slap you in the face and stare down at you from thier towers....That is what i call support...all of this on some here say evidence....not once did i hear them say, lets wait and see what the inquiry brings out....instead all we saw was a wall of fingers all of which were pionting at us.... DID i jump to conclusions, no, a little bitter yes.... You've yet to prove that we have lowered our standards, there may be accusations but there is no proof. everyone is assuming the worse or guilty until proven other wise...much like the prisoner abuse by Canadian soldiers scandle that is still going on....We as Canadian soldiers hold all of our responsbilities to the highest regard , we have infact set the standards in many many things including our handling of prisoners. But that is just my opinion.

It's time that liberals stop using our troops for thier polictical goals, they've made it clear they want our of Afgan mission and will do anything to make that happen. Get off the horse and step away from your superior moral values. We are not a society that cares about thier troops, it's one thing to say we support our troops, the hard part is actually supporting them....., our military is in the state it is in today because the majority of Canadians wanted it that way, end of story...And i would agree that there is alot of other depts that required more attention and funding , but not at the cost that DND has suffered todate... Yes we have signed onto the conventions , all of them, and they are being adhered to, unless you can prove other wise. Oh wait another example of how we care about our troops, lets piont the finger at them after every unproven accusation... Your 100 % correct, the leadership of our country should take the responsiabilty for all it's actions and for all the problems our nation faces....that being said, someone in the liberal party should be talking to those month pieces of thier own, and explain to them "ppsssttt we did the same thing" and thier reponsability for thier actions do not stop after a defeat at the polls... but then again we are a nation of finger pionters are we not....perhaps if we stop the "acting for the Cameras" thing we could sit down and work out a few problems....Nah...

I don't think it is going to matter whom takes over creating a prison,gaurding prisoners, who ever does it will be in for nothing but grief, and scandles. Canadians are far to quick in pionting fingers at abuses, that susposily happen. The present scandle is case in piont, there is no hard proof that prisoners that have been captured by Canadian forces have been tortured, we are assuming that they are...if there was charges should have been laid. Another example was the accusation of Canadian forces personal abuses prisoners in thier custudy which has since been debunked, but Canadians were far to quick to believe that we were. which begs the question who are these Canadians really supporting , our troops, the mission, or our repution, who knows...but from the troops perspective it's not them, or the mission, not our repution....but more of a polictical piont grab... The only solution to this problem is to put some presure on the Afagnis government to look into these alleged charges and to fix thier own system, which will take some time... And although not an excuse to torture, it is these Afganis that are the victims here, The taliban have ruled by fear, torture, gruesome killings, for far to long, and they the Afganis people have not forgotten this...and while we sit in our ivory towers and judge them "would be be so morally superior if those things had been done to us and our families".. A quick look into our history says no we are not so differnet.

weaponeer: Good to see you finally on line, i hope things are going well as they can go in the dust bowl, have you checked out all that airforce stuff yet, they got some interesting kit. Anyways keep safe.

Problem with NGO's is they are few and far inbetween, alot of this work is being done by the combat arms guys, as the NGO's do not accompany us out on patrols, the work that the NGO's do is taken from patrol reports or offical request thru Afganis officals, and it passes thru to many hands, for instance a patrol may report a villagers well is broken 4 or 5 times before NGO's actually take action....also keep in mind for them to go out and do these repairs or requests, there is alot of planning and coord on thier part and ours as we provide the security, vehs, support etc etc...in most cases it is alot easier for us to do the job ourselfs... NGO's are not the only ones deliverying CIDA monies, the PRT aslo do this thru the military, a media article on a female SGT about 2 months explained this, the Afganis call her the women with the monie...this is something new to try and get aid down to the Afganis people faster...imagine how fustrating it is for a patrol commander to explain all our red tape and why they don't have there new well etc etc ...if they patrol commanders had the cash right there that whole process could be shorten... There are alot of examples of the military thru cimic or PRT, that has constructed schools,wells,iragation ditchs by doing the construction themselfs. And not always with government monies either, military pers have chipped in thier own cash to pay for these things, I think the biggest was they raised enough monie to purchased a new Land rover Amb, and to refurbish a fire truck...

Afgan Afgan Afgan The above are just some of our accomplishments, but they are so many that most sites only comment on the major ones, some of the smaller ones are building schools, hospitals, fire depts, police depts, roads, paved twin highways, irigation ditchs, demining living and farming areas, providing small amounts of cash directly towards the villages for items like wells, books, items for schools, on top of this lets not forget things that the soldiers and thier families are doing , handing out toques, gloves and mittins knitted by Canadian volenteers, gathering up tones of school supplies, handing out the tonnes of donated clothing, toys, shoes, boots, the list is endless, basically anything that has been sent to afgan... Aranging activities for the kids , a couple months ago it was a major soccer tourney over 500 kids , try doing that in a war zone that list goes on and on. Since i have left they are now starting construction of another pave hyway from the pakistan border which was a dirt road but a major artry into Afgan.... Alot is happening over there, our soldiers are not just fighting and dying , most of our missions are providing assistance to the people of Afgan, it is common place for most soldiers to work 18 to 20 hour days providing assistance. Actually there is more factions than just the AQ, and Taliban, there is mercs, warlords, militia etc etc many different groups working again'st what we are trying to do, That being said i do not want to give you the impresion that most of the country is again'st us...most either tolerate our presence, or support us.... I'm not going to BS you there are Afganis that don't want us there, and i'm sure they have armed themselfs and engaged us at some piont... We have done counter drug operatioons, but they are counter productive in my opinion, these farmewrs need to feed thier families and until we provide them with another cash crop of similar value these operations are not going to produce results...it would be like telling praire farmers they could not grow wheat or other top dollar crops...Drug dealers don't do what ever they want, when things get out of hand we use force to control the situation, they know we carry a bigger stick, although there have been some that thought they had a bigger stick and have engaged NATO forces and lost. The difference between my opinion and a politions is I don't care if you trust me or not, i'm not trying to sell you something, get your vote, or promising you anything , in fact the only reason i post on this forum is to try and bring some fact and trurth into some of the topics....bringing one soldiers opinion to the debate, thats all. Want to hang your hat on something, take a look at what sacrafice our soldiers endure everyday to do this job. Combat soldiers live for the most part outside the wire, in which your adrenilen is always pumping , your spidey sense always tingling, very exhausting after weeks at a time...we live in deep ditchs, covered in dust, dirt, insects , snakes and everything else that crawls...not seeing showers for weeks sometimes months, personal hygine consists of a wet nap and a cup of water to brush your teeth with...living in extreme heat summer time temps over 50 c doing all that while wearing over 50 pounds of protective equipment and carrying a 60 lb ruck sack....now do it all in a combat enviroment.. we seen over 20 of my comrads killed and countless wounded. DID i mention that i volenteered not once but twice, infact all of us are volenteers, nobody is forced to go...Yes it's our job, we get paid to do all that, but i get paid wether i'm doing that in Afgan or Canada in a warm bed, showers etc etc ...and yet we continue to put our lives on hold and indanger because we believe we are making a difference , because we see that we are making a difference, because we believe that this is really what Canadians want us to do. Assist those that can not defend themselfs, to help rebuild thier nation so that they can enjoy some of the basic freedoms we take for granted everyday. Are we experts on what we are doing, combat yes, but all the rest by no means , are we going to make mistakes you bet, are we doing the best possiable job we are capable of , you bet.... But when i look done the line I don't see a whole lot of those agencies that specialize in certain areas, what i do see is a long line of Canadian soldiers all doing the job , because they stepped up and said we'll do it...and they do it without complaining, with old and tired equipment , and without the support from the majority of Canadians in regards to the mission... but most importantly we continue to do it, because it is the right thing to do, it's a Canadian thing to do. If that is to murky for you i apoligize, but that is what i believe in, that is why i keep volenteering to go back, and not just me thousands of Canadian soldiers.

Then why bring it up, the whole thing about "me paying taxes....And yes it is about principle and responsibilty, A much poorer nation, that has been devasted by war, for over 30 years has asked us for our help, in getting back on their feet. Give me a break, Canadians pay more on interest on our national dept in one year than we will ever put into Afgan, kind of sad when you think of just how well off we are and how much we actually spend in afgan....Just how much of your tax dollars do you think is going towards the Afgan mission anyway ?.. And if it came down to it we'd walk, swim ,float, home because, for all of us it is after all "our" home and we are Canadians that get the job done...

I'm not putting any responsabilty on you, you've claimed you are not part of the majority that decided to sent us over, fine you did not agree on sending our nations troops over to afgan...if you had read my post i did say the majority of Canadians...I thought i was clear, perhaps i was not... again i appoligize for not being clearer in my intent, the minority failed to convince the majority that this mission was a bad idea. That being said that does not excuse them of any responabilty in regards to the mission. The majority rules and in this case it became a Canadian commitment. making it "our" mission. Your getting the wrong impression here, i'm not blaming or putting the responsabilty on any group of people. I happen to believe in what our nation is trying to accomplish in Afgan. I've clearly stated that at the beginning of the mission so did a majority of Canadians, but since then they have been convinced other wise. for what ever reason.. Nothing has changed in regards to the mission or Canada's goals in regards to rebuilding the nation. Continue to voice your opinion it's one of your basic rights, i never once told you to shut up, or your oinion was crap...that being said you should be prepared to have your opinion challaged just like you challanged mine...

I'll rephase it if it'll make you feel better, "The Majority of Canadians decided to send our military to Afgan", and at the time the minority "which includes you Charles failed to use thier voices to convince the rest of Canada that it was a bad idea... As for it being my mission, i'd like to correct you, it's Canada's commitment, and that does includes every Canadian citizen. like it or not, we are there and we are making a difference, you just refuse to believe that... As for taxes, thank you for your contribution, i can ensure you that your tax dollars as well as mine tax dollars are being used to re build a better Afganis nation.... You and alot of others must be tickled pink that the Majority of Canadians now believe that we should pull out of Afgan, and that soon your, what 20 or 30 dollars of your taxes can be put to other great causes...but it's all about the money is'nt.

No i'm very clear on who sent us on the mission, the liberal government, backed up by the majority of Canadians at the time. The actual decision was made by the government of the time, but it was backed by the majority of everyday Canadians, you make it sound that you do not have a voice, and perhaps a single voice is drowned out by the majority... but you have a voice none the less. You can't tell me that decision was not based on polls , everything the liberals did was effected by polls.... Did someone actually knock on your door and ask you personally , i'd say no, but if you were agains't the mission and wanted it to change then you should have done something about...being silent and doing nothing is a form of consent... So i'm right in my statement of "the Canadian people sent the military to Afgan"

Believe what you want to, Canada's military has been handing over Prisoners to the Afgan auth for years now, and not a peep, infact the whole prisoner thing pretty much died out after that. which brings more to mine side of the debate than yours. If there was so much concern why was it not raised until someone accused our military of mishandling POW's, an accusation which turned out to be false. As for myself caring about Taliban prisoners, your statement is not entirely true, while they were in our care and control they were treated better than the genva convention has laid out...my response was did i care about them after they were handed over to the Afgan authority to which i said no.... But then again do we care what happens to child abuser, serial killers after they get locked up, do we give a shit whether to get beat up by other inmates.or conditions are a little tough ...Is there a national movement to correct this, or are we taking the Canadian typical response , does not effect me, hockey season, my taxes, who cares.... Canadians have to put this all into context, Taliban routinly make examples of Afgan civilians such as heads on pikes, cutting of of limbs and heads, so it's not surprising that some take revenge on the taliban... Canadians read about this in the media and gasp those savages, those barbarians...are these the animals we are supporting , helping rebuild .... Screw this i want nothing to do with this....Check our own history, is was not so long ago that we took our revenge out on other militaries The Nazi SS div's in france for one, After we liberated Concentration camps, another. One should not throw stones if you live in a glass house. Yes , we as a nation know this behavior is unacceptable but we as a nation do not hold the high moral ground here, we are leading by example, and most are following. And in time everyone will see the error in thier ways and correct them, much like we did... Alot of Canadians just want an excuse to end this mission, any excuse will do, and some have grasp ahold of this one.

Why does it matter on which end of the stick we are on ? Is it because we in combat and sustaining cas. I find that alittle concerning because, it is the soldiers that are doing the fighting and dying and they want to stay, and see this thru... Perhaps Germany and Cyprus, were not good examples, But Bosina was still involved in a full blown war when UN first deployed. which continued for 2 or more years.

After the gitmo experence, Canadians, did'nt really care where the POW's went just not to US prisons...And since Canada does not pocess the experiance in running a POW prison, nor has the persons available to man such a facility it would quickly turn into a dogs breakfast... a good example of that is look how quickly a few roughed up POW's turned into a national inquest, and debate...how quickly did that turn into accusations of Canadian soldiers mistreating prisoners...I can just imagine the quality of prison our nation would have to set up to keep it out of the papers...and Canadians from making accusations... No the best opition would be "STOP" sending our military on missions that we have no intention of completing, or Canadians have the patients to see thru. Placing a very short time limit on a mission that normally takes 15 to 20 years to complete is just plain stupid. or rather done for polictical reasons And accomplishes nothing, Yes we can state we've done our time , invested enough, we're leaving....but if you don't like the long term commitment then stay the fuc* out of these types of missions. What is frustrating to soldiers is the Canadian people said to them "this is your mission" go do us proud, we did that, we are still doing that ...but now they are screaming "time is up" you took to long, get back to Canada...much like giving a contractor only 2 weeks to build your home... The fall out from us pulling out will be great, and we will not be the only nation to do so, others will quickly follow...it will be touted as a great Taliban victory, and thier movement will gain momentum and will force the US and Britian out shortly afterward. Afgan will be another forgotten pile of ruble that will quickly fester into something bad once again. forcing us to once again go in and assist in nation building once again...out Just my opinon...

You mean like Germany, or Japan...

We can piont fingers at whom ever you want, but until they prove that POW's taken by Canadian soldiers are being tortured by Afgan government officals and Canadian soldiers know of this then really no one is complicit are they...And we are living up to the argreement signed after we refused to give them to the US. As a soldier whom has taken part in actions that have produced prisons of war, i will say this i don't really care what happens to them after they leave my care and control, for serveral reasons, i've seen there handy work up close, they would not afford me or any of my comrads the same treatment, They are cold blooded killers, anyone who could cut off a head without blinking an eye , or a little girls hands with an axe deserves anything live has in store for them....Don't pin that morality crap on Canadian forces members. it was our government that approved the POW transfer to the Afgans, with Canadian public approval... That leaves a couple of opitions, we build our own prison, something we have no experiance at. But after 2009 what do we do with the POW's ...let them go, give them to whom...no matter how well we run this prison there're will be nothing but grief come out of those efforts...further tarnishing our nation. The second opition would transport them into Canada, build a prison for them here, and hold them for how long, and what do we do with them after they serve there time...we all know where this is leading to...they'll claim refugee status and end up on our streets...something i always wanted a cold blood killer living in my nieborhood..."these guys make bikers look like nannies"

Our commitment is till 2009. Yes our commitment is offically over in 2009, but the job of rebuilding this nation is not finished, that is the question do we walk away with no regrets, or do we finsih the job that we started. No it's not, but the main players are still there with no withdrawal in sight, we are part of the main effort and should pull out when the jobs done. How long is forever, we spent over 25 years in Cyprus, well over 12 years in bosina, over 40 years in germany... If seems like an impossiable task, but we are making a difference, we are making progress, painfully slow but it is still there.

I think alot can happen between now and our sceduled pullout, not only in Afgan, but on the home front as well, poll numbers swing fast, perhaps harper and company can win a majority before that date, but i tend to agree that if they don't have the numbers for a majority extending afgan will hurt them in the polls. I don't think the excuse that we have pulled more than our our share works for me, i think we 've made a commitment and should stick to it, until there is no other opitions. but thats just me, one voter. That being said if Canadians are not going to support the mission and concentrate on finding a solution then we should pull out, not for another mission but allow the military to recup, rearm and rebuild.

There are a few demining projects under way,, these mines are being destroyed in place. Military maps are full of known mine areas. just waitng for demining teams. Are the holes, that are being filled up with everything under the sun, include mines from an older era, or are these new mines? Where are they getting these mines? most are russian , few are new, but not many, the russians left The majority of them are old russian stock, russians left millions of them behind most in storage. to give you an example, back in the earily days, we went to Kanadar airfield where we are now, the russians had dug a drainage ditch, the length of the airfield "over 2 kms long and some 20 feet wide, some 10 ft deep in this ditch layed side by side was aircraft ordance...from small arms, to 1000 lbs bombs... tones of bombs ,rockets, you name it...when they left they took what they could drive or fly out that was it, everything else was left behind...All that being said the Taliban are using new ordance but would account for a small percentage of what is used... Actually they did use IED again'st the russians, mostly in convoy ambushes, like i said before thier tactics are always changing..There are alot of insurgants that are not from Afgan, such as Pakistan, but Iran and Iraqi trained fighters as well. A triggering device could range from a presure plate ,simple watch, or cell phone...to a photocell postioned for a certain time of day. It's all available here , all it takes is money, when we brought in armoured vehs there bombs got bigger, when we stopped traveling on known trails the planted in the open fields.... Don't get me wrong, NATO does have counter measures that do work, and i won't get into them, but they are not always 100 % effective. Again it's because they are changing tactics, much easier to brain wash some young kid into blowing himself up, for the cause, but as we see the IED increase in use , it's an indication that these young kids are getting harder to find... The purchase of new tanks is a very good one for the military, not only for Afgan but for any future operation, there sure size and wieght command respect on any battle field, they save lives, and if we had them on Op mudusa things could have gone alot smoother, for us and extremily badly for the bad guys. In regards to the militaries thinking about tanks just a year a half ago the liberals where in charge, and our funding was not going to change, tanks are very expensive to operate, and maintain, imagine wiping thru 1200 lts of dies in just a few hours, and times that by every veh on the battle field... The LAV based MGS sys was wheeled based much easier on the budget, one of the prime considerations , but the MGS contract came out to 6.6 mil a copy, more than a MBT , the savings would come in operation of that veh...It's not that we did not want them , we could not afford them...over the long run.

If these IED's where just mines , they would not be as effective, Afganis are digging a 4 foot hole and filling it up with everything, A/C bombs, rockets, fuel, mines stacked sometimes 5 or 6 at once, anything that will add to the explosion is being used, thier being triggered by almost everything under the sun...including the sun itself...Thier very adaptable, and very creative...

Can't really have a debate about an exit stratagy without discusses the mission, or the pros and cons of us leaving.

So by have we decided there is NO moral high ground, when comparing prisons ...I'm just curious because if incarcerated and given the chioce of spending my time in a say ,Turkish,? middle eastern prison or a US or Canadian prison, i know my chioce it's a no brainer actually...Why is that, is it because there is degrees of moral ground, or the fact that one offers a much better condition, in which to spend time in....

Don't get me wrong both are very deadly, and very capable machines, i would not want to meet one on the battle field. And one could argue for years which one is better, there are others that are in the same class as well the Israelis Markarva 4 , the new russian tank seris, french leclerc...and a few others...

Combat operations are happening all over Afganistan, 24 and 7 , 365 days a year. The last operation which i believe is still ongoing is a british one in the hemland district, it involved approx 250 Canadians...not much about it has made the Canadian media, i don't know why...The British, american, dutch, and others all run combat ops all the time we just hear much about them... Offensive operations are dictated by the seasons, the taliban retreat for the most part during the winter months, as the mountain passes become to hard to cross. can't have a war if nobody shows up...hence why there is a spring , summer, and fall offensives...

And not everyone is going to agree, regardless of the cause or situation. That is one of our basic freedoms. That being said while we enjoy all the freedoms that we do have, do we not have a responsabilty to uphold those freedoms, alot of people have forgotten that almost 30 canadians died in those 9/11 attacks. Attacks that were not only on an allied that we have lived under thier umbrella of protection for as long as i can remember, but attacks on Canadians citizens... As a nation of plenty, do we not have a responsabilty to share those freedoms with those that want it. You mean countries like Bolivia, equador,nicaragua, Haiti, columbia, Grenda, Israel, pakistan, plus the over 150 other nations that recieve US aid or are influenced by US foreign policy...yes some of those are not great examples, but they are examples none the less. They may not be like us, nor do we expect them to be, everyone of these governments are different. They are very much aware of what freedoms means , just as the black slaves did in north america. What Afganis want more than anything else is peace, they want a life without war, after that they want to be able to work and feed thier families... Do we need to put a price tag on every endevour that our nation takes on. What price tag would Canada put on our current freedoms , what would it be willing to pay for them....we have given a horrific price in WWI for a similar cause. What have we given Afgan todate in regards to monies, does it even come close to what our nation pays in interest on our national debt every year. Has our commitment really begun to cost to much, has it it overly effected one tax payer... Would you walk over 200 KM's for a fun distraction, again your selling the Afgans short they not the backwards people we think. they are quite aware of the outside world, hell there is an intra net cafee just outside the base....and they know exactly what freedoms they don't have. and they know exactly what they want...and for them these elections are a great start....i'm sure our first government was not the best for the job either, but we seemed to have survived, shit we survived the crietien and trudeau periods did we not....They may not be off to a great start but it is a start. a great deal of time and planning went into those elections, done mostly from those outside of NATO, IE elections Canada had many reps there, along with many many Afganis etc etc ...there was an education process, canadates traveled about and spoke to the people. alot of these voters traveled great distances on foot, under constant taliban threat just to be able to vote...that has got to speak volumes in thier will to make change...it also speaks volumes to where thier priorities lay.

It's good to hear from you as well, i although we disagree often i do respect your opinions... The operation will contine as well as the mission. what will end in 2009 is our commitment, another country will have to be found to take our place and our role.... If one was to compare the accomplishments of each year side by side we are making great progress. but i would say anything could happen between now and 2009, but if i was a betting man, i'd say unless the liberals can win an election we will be there much longer.... I would say no, as 2009 is only 2 years away, there is still alot of combat yet to happen to drive them to the borders, then NATO will have to decide what it is going to do with Pakistans porus borders... End game is when the taliban and other insurgents can not strick fear or control over the ordinary Afganis people.... That problem is a tough one, as they do not wear or indentify themselfs as Jihadists but rather as ordinary people, plus the fact that money talks volumes in that region of the world...enough money can buy you alot of access in and out of the country...that being said, with todays modern tech NATO can track most crossings or routes we just don't have enough troops to cover them all. more is happening in that respect than the media has access to...IE not all those insurgents make it into Afgan alive... More of it is getting in lately, what is needed is more NGO's or give the money directly to the military to hand out... Yes and no, the LAV's are a live saving veh, along with the Nyala patol vehs....but we still need alot more equipment and in great numbers....the terrian here eats armour vehs for breakfast...Chinooks would be a great assets, it would cut the need for convoys down considerably, Attack helos would also be nice, not only to escort convoys but to serve as mobile arty platforms... Something to detect IED's, although we have some tech that does this, want to become a instant millionare design something that can detect an IED at a distance... NoN lethal wpns would be a asset as well, something that could disable a veh at a distance, would be better than firing a LMG from a moving veh on a rough road at a small car... Anytime. I'd give him a couple more weeks yet, but there is access he just has to find it....The camp is huge and it takes a while to find all the little hide away spots...I found it by actually walking around with my lap top until i found a signal..as it is not posted any where...