Army Guy

I wish... but we are only get 100 vehs total, that includes the 20 leased from germany which will be replaced out of the netherlands stock.

This is how insurgent warfare is played, thier own cas are not a factor, thier aim is to produce NATO cas at any cost, look at how Canada reacted to the deaths in OP Mudusa, they know that they are going to get miliage out of our deaths , meaning they will sway public opinion in the west which is the sole goal of insurgent warfare...sway public opinion enough and a country leaves packing up it's troops, leaving them with a victory regardless of what happens on the battle field. So to them it is not insane and piontless, it is a means of winning. Don't let anyone tell you they are poorly trained or poorly led, these people are warriors in the true sense they've been doing this since they were small kids. top off all this and then add religion and brain washing and your correct some are willing to die for thier cause, i say some because the will to live is strong in everyone and when faced with a split second decission to live or die most will pick surrender. All i can really say on this , is nothing moves with out NATO seeing it. They have there reasons for not making it public, as you can well imagine why. The recruits are easy, money talks and will buy anything including a life, why would they sign up, to feed thier families is a big one, loyality to thier clan is another, loyal to thier religion...NATO is slowly catching on paying Afgan army pers more giving them more benifits but it really has a long way to go. The surprise was the actual numbers of taliban in OP Mudusa, but then again we did give them days in which to prepare, we gave them advanced warning of the date of the attack, by dropping leaflets to the civilians warning them to leave... As for them having to be driven out or dieing in place thats true, but the speed in which we attacked, bringing to bear maxium fire power that we had available did not give them much of a chioce. by this time we had already suffer cas, and were not in the mood to talk each of them them out, but rather more interested in finishing this so we could be with our dead and wounded. It's hard to explain those days of combat during Op mudusa, but to say we met an enemy that out number us , were dug in, in prepared postions and killed them by the hundards has got to say serveral things. This battle was as intense as any describe in history, that Canadian soldiers are second to no one, and that the Taliban can be defeated on the battle field. As for the need of tanks, every seen 10 ft grass fields, so thick and dense that a 25,000 lb 8x8 veh could not penatrate, thats alot of dope. And those trees, harder than anything we have in Canada, we tried to clear them with combat dozers, with little effect, tried cutting them with chainsaws, some what more effective but still did not clear them, we tried using explosives most required serveral attempts....now put a 45 ton tank on the ground thier is not a tree in afgan you could not mow down, or a mud wall you could not drive thru...and the new tamks are closer to 70 tonnes a big multiplyer on the battle field..Yes they can be defeated with what we have over there now, we've proven that...but having tanks means saving lives, our lives... This is not new news, the fact that we can not support any other missions is proof of that, as for having 36 months at home i wish...most are lucky to be home for a year, with the 1 st brig and 2 and brig doing most of the missions , our 5 th brig french comrads will have to explain why they are just starting to go on missions in any numbers... But then again we have always been over committed. there is no funding for expansion, that is required...

There is some misunderstanding here, the orginal 650 mil contract was for the lease of 20 LeoIIA6 tanks plus the purchase of 80 LeoIIA4 tanks (which includes 20 assorted versions such as taurus recover vehs, Bager engineer vehs, and beaver brigde layers). The contract also includes training and logistics for only 5 years. It did not include price to upgrade the other 60 LeoIIA4 tanks to A6 standards, plus the contract for logistics and training is for an addtional 15 years.. Tanks are very expensive to operate, and Afgan eats vehs for breakfast. CSAR The Additional sticker shock is hard to swallow, and normal Canadians don't see this when they purchase a veh, if you got the bill for 20 years of parts and labour added to the price tag i think most of us would be purchaseing bikes or walking to work..

Thank you for your detailed reply, it has brought a few things to light that i have forgotten or had to do research on , a learning experiance for me anyway. For as long as i can remember military force is not the only players on the team, there is a diplomatic mission, plus many civilian agencies involved, including RCMP, elections Canada, Dept of corrections, ETC, on top of the PRT teams which does duplicate some of the above efforts. so it is a combined effort, and at this time it is the only solution to the insurgent warfare problem. And a better solution needs to be found or we will soon have to bend to the faithfull wishes and demands. And all this effort does take time, unfortunatly longer than Canadians have patients for. Lets not forget about operation Apollo which was happening around the same time oct 2001 until Nov 2003. our support and deployments were considerable larger than a det of JTF guys. OP Appollo Todate they Afgan army stands at about 35,000 pers, and grads about 1200 soldiers every 2 weeks NATO wants those numbers at 70,000 by 2009 a very tall order. but those timmings and figures are for a basic soldier and do not take into account the need to train a strong NCO corp and officer corp the men that are required to lead them into battle. That takes years of training, and experiance, unfortunitly they are learning the hard way, by doing it in combat conditions. In the west it takes years of training in a training enviroment (no one is actually shoting back at you, and mistakes don't cost lives) to produce leaders " hence why the is western soldiers actually attached to afgan units. I just want to piont out that from day one our mission in afgan has been a combat one, I've completed 2 tours in afgan one in Kabul, and one in Kanadar, and did spend many days outside the wire in Kabul doing patrols, ambushes, or hunting down bad guys , but i would not compare the 2 , with Kanadar operations being larger, and longer, and far more intense. As for the attitude you talk of i can relate to as i've had it as well, eager to test all those years of training and experiance, now that i have, it's not something i'm eager to test again, war has a way of changing all that. And as for glory there is none, just mad minutes as some author once said, filled with adreniline and fear and occasional prayer, but no glory, and when it's all done and the adreniline is subsided and the rush is gone, all that is left is reflection, guilt, and sadness for comrads that did not make it thru... and after all that , and you've made up your mind that this is insane.... until your patrol enters another Afgan village and you see, smell, and taste what the taliban are capable of, and to whom they are carrying it out on. And you vow to do what you can do to stop it all, to help those that can not defend themselfs and the cyle starts all over again. Something that thousands of Canadian soldiers have done every day since we have arrived in afgan, and yet they volunteer to come back, not because we want combat, not because we like killing, not because we want glory,medals,parades. because it is the right thing to do, because it's the Canadian thing to do, and that is what those that have served before us would have done. It's hard to articulate why i or others like me are compelled to go back. This is wrong, and is a result of the media finding it easier to slot them into two groups. NATO has a slot for everyone and every group. I'm sorry i've run out time and will get back to this tommorow.

Please provide proof that Afghanistan said they would protect al Qaeda. Today's elected government says too many civilians are being killed by NATO and they want it stopped. And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. (Applause.) Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. (Applause.) Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating. Pres speach The Al-Jazeera correspondent asked, "Now, let's return to the issue of Osama bin Laden. Do you think it is just that a people be attacked and that a country be destroyed on account of one person? You are protecting one person, and you are destroying your country on account of one person. How do you defend this position of yours?" Haqani responded, "There is no difference between Osama and his community ... and those in Kashmir, Chechnya, Uzbekistan. ..." Haqani spoke of the willingness of those in this community to defend each other, "like they would fight for their own children, for their own land, for their own selves," and he emphasized that they would fight as one in opposition to "the infidels." interview. Pres speech? He said Canada's role was indispensable in the battle against Taliban militants and emphasized the importance of non-military support -- such as reconstruction and protecting human rights. "Canada has made a tremendous difference in the lives of millions of Afghans already. Your country is helping us on a daily basis,'' he said. My Webpage Agan foreign minster. I think before one ask the questions they should know what the answers are. So what are our interests, and what is the interests of Afganistan. Explain what you really mean here. What oil interests, and yes the opuim interests, does it make good business sense to you or anyone else here to spend more 10 of bils in defending a couple of bil dollar industry... So your one of the 54 % of Canadians that have made up thier minds based on facts you make up or here say. Get off your ass and get on a plane see for yourself ask the afganis yourself, stop taking the media reports as gospel...I'm telling you they rarely leave the camp, file thier reports daily, where are they getting half the crap they print....only a very few have actually gone out with us and interviewed the people and those have been chastised for thier efforts "reporting the truth".... But hey i'm just a dumb grunt who's opinion does not count, why because i work for the government...i'm one of those guys that lived outside the wire for months at a time and had daily contact with "those Afganis" whom you've said wanted us out now....Although i will not sit here and tell you they all loved us and wanted us there. i will say that most where grateful and wanted us to stay, they may of not been happy with everything we did , they still prefered us over the taliban.

I'd be lying if i said yes, but then again once they declared they had taken Al Quida under thier wing and would protect them by force in nessicary. They did draw the line in the sand. Todays elected Afgan government does want us there. It is a big question....That would depend on what exactly do we as a nation declare to be our National interests? And do we always have to be motivated by our national interests.... Is helping other nations in need not in our best interest now or down the road. It is obvious that Afgan has nothing to offer our country, now or in the near future. God knows there are plenty of countries out there in more need and of more help, but the fact remains we did agree to help destroy this nations infra structure and remove it's government. And we should assist it in re building it. Are we global babysitters ? It is something that most Canadians take pride in , is our role as as you say babysitting. As for the cost, our soldiers freely commit thier blood in the case of Afgan anyways, and as for treasure come on, a quick look at what programs and studies our government pays out for, and we can't find a few dollars to assist one nation.

This sure sounds like the horse calling the kettle black...who would have guessed Catchme a dominionist... I got one question does that title come with a special uniform...

Catchme: We've already been through all this, infact serveral posters here tried to explain it to you, you either refused to read the material or pronounced it false. but i'm not getting into that debate with you again. You mean the same Jack that wanted to redeploy us to Dafur, a country that does not want us in there. A country with similar problems as Afgan...Jack wants us there because it gets him votes, nothing more....and when something newer or sexier comes along he'll be screaming to leave Dafar as well. Negotiations of some sort or another have been taken place well before "Jack" said so... Your right it is the Afganis that we should be listening to, So let me ask you how many have you or the average Canadian talked to. For every media site that claims the Average Afganis wants us out I'll provide you a source that wants us to stay. But then again does the average Canadian even care about what the Afganis want ?

I'm assuming the "rules" we are talking about are the Genva convention. one could argue that the convention is a handicap to a certain piont, when the other side is not expected to follow the same guide lines...It all boils down to what we as the people are willing to do or accept to win the conflict. We as a nation have thrown down the gloves sort to speak in the past, some good examples do exist in WWII. That being said it would take a major event for our nation to cross that line again. As for Afgan this will not happen, we are much closer to quiting than we are to throwing out the convention. But for what little advantage breaking the conventions would give us in afgan i don't think it would be a winning statagy. and in my opinion would actually do more harm than good. As the russians found out.

I can say with all honesty that this is the best board that i've come across on the net. And what makes it so good is you guys, i guess it would be easier to make a list of those that i don't like, but even those are pretty colorful so i tip my hat to you all. Yes all of you, the left, center and right, the tree huggers, and tree cutters, french, and english, the separatists and federalists, and the list goes on...because without you things would be pretty boring. Thank you.

capricorn: A majority do want peace, but they also want work, to feed thier families, to raise thier families without the extreme violence they face every day. And all of that is shatter, by a minority or Taliban hardliners, warlords, and foreign fighters that pray on them everyday. The insurgents come from many different sources, altough true alot of them do come from Pakistan, and other foreign muslim countries, alot are Afganis themselfs fighting for money, or following family tradition of being Taliban, or forced into fighting thru fear. And yes there is a steady flow of fighters coming into Afgan ,but nothing like the Taliban would like us to believe...a good example of this was Taliban leaders bragged of a summer offensive of more than 10,000 fighters this year, and over 1000 bombers, they would be lucky to put out a tenth of those numbers...So they are being contained, NATO troops are making huge dents in thier numbers that they can not replace easily.. They know they can not defeat us on the battle field, any battle field...What they do know is time is on thier side, all they have to do is cause a few cas and the west will scream...they also know that they are winning the hearts and minds of the people in the west, and sooner or later it is the people that will demand thier troops go home. Once that happens they will declare total victory, and run thier affairs anyway they want...and as history has already shown us, they will continue this strategy as it works well when used again'st the west. only next time maybe the prize won't be Afgan freedom but perhaps some of our own... Here is the kicker, Canadian soldiers are volunteering to do this mission over and over again, Why is that ? the average soldier in Afgan today already has serveral missions under his belt, from the Yugo, Haiti, and this one although more dangerous it has the potential of doing the most good, giving a nation the ability to take it's first steps... So while Canadian citizens may think we are wasting our lives, and some of our tax dollars our soldiers don't think so. Soldiers are a very vocal lot of people and if they did not believe in something they would let you know...not the case here. There is no question that Canadians can hold thier heads high for all of our acomplishments that have been done todate. What is hard for soldiers to accept is that we have spilled thier blood with these people, we've been thier since thier conception, and it will be extremily difficult to pack up and leave without seeing it come to a conclusion of some sort. To look them in the eyes and say sorry, but our countrymen have said we have done enough, and it's time to go home... I know there will be some that will say tough shit, your a soldier and you'll do as your told and go where your told...all true, but don't think that will not come at a price, and those that disagree will find another ocupation, will find another way to help, soldiers don't grow on trees they are trained and forged to be who they are and quiting is not one of the things we do easily....and those that remain will have learned not to give so much of themselfs as the Canadian tax payer changes thier tune on the fly... Don't get me wrong, i'm proud of what i do, where i come from and thank god everyday for allowing me to live and raise my family in Canada. I just wish that the rest of Canada could give as much to this mission as we do...

Catchme: Still trying to rewrite history and the facts hey Catchme. I think we've already discused all of this in previous threads, and if i remember correctly you failed to make or prove your case then. As for your piont that peacekeeping operations out numbered actual NATO operations is true, keeping in mind that just because we send out one or two soldiers on most of these peacekeeping ops does not imply that we put more effort or time into peacekeeping.

Runningdog: Judging by your response, i've burst your bubble and your perception of our nations military and her soldiers. Perhaps you can piont out the shame in living up to our NATO commitments, and putting more emphases on them than actual peacekeeping operations. It was not my intention to take away any of our accomplishments done under peacekeeping operations, but rather inform you that more time and money is spent towards our nations defense and living up to it's defense pacts. I'd also like to remind you that there is more to peacekeeping than providing clean water,building schools, handing out teddy bears etc, although that is part of it ,it is only a small part most peacekeeping missions have seen our soldiers involved in combat operations of one sort or another. As for your opinion of soldiers only joining for a job, clearly shows me that you really do not know what a soldiers life is like, and i could think of thousands of easier ways to earn a living. Ones that do not involve strapping on 40 lbs of protective equipment, 40 lbs of ammo and going to the office, NO it's not just a job it's a way of life, one that i do because i want to, not because i have to. Yes, i'm a soldier that takes orders, much like you do in your job, unless your self employed. As for being told what to think, there's a leap on your behalf, free thinking soldiers is exactly what our military promotes, much like any job really. Military life is more restrictive than normal every day jobs, but then again it has to be as others lives depend on it. I'm free to think and express myself as i see fit, just like any other Canadian citizen. I don't know where you got those facts, but they are false. As for spouting the government line in regards to Afganistan your wrong, every soldier over there now or in the past has volunteered , thats right put there hands up to go, not because we are rebots with no opinon, but because we believe in what we are doing over there, that this mission is an honourable one, worth all the risks and effort we put into that. Most soldiers infact have volunteered more than once, and have completed atleast 2 tours of duty, that has got to speak about how they feel about this mission. Again it is not my intention to piss any one off , but rather debate the issue, or offer some facts from a soldiers piont of view.

I don't place much faith in polls, as they don't mean much and change day to day. And the numbers have pretty much been consistant for a while now.... My objective here was to have some of those 54 % explain to me and the thousands of other soldiers why we should pull out of Afgan NOW ? and how they come by thier opinions. Not to get into a pissing contest but rather a debate, only this time with them defending there opinions rather than me doing it all of the time...and who knows maybe even an old army guy can learn something. I've heard this said a thousand times, i've read the governments explaination, i've read DND's explaination, and find it very clear, but maybe it's just me, and my miltary background. What do you think needs clearing up... DND's explaination. We've had many opened ended commitments before, Cyprus, Bosina, Germany, why is this one different...or is it really about Cas suffered.. What is your interputation of peacekeeping ? Canada as a nation has always had more troops and equipment on NATO run missions than it has ever had on Peacekeeping duties, Canada as strickly peacekeeping nation is a myth set out by previous governments. And how do you do that, the reason i ask is that is the whole reason i started posting in this forum to start with, but it's been my experance that most do not want to know, or refuse to see it any other way...which as you piont out is being backed up thru the media.

As most here in this forum know i recently returned from a tour of duty in Afgan. And have for a long while been trying to defend our nations decission to be there, and have been answering a long list of questions as to our involvement and giving a soldiers piont of veiw.. Perhaps i'm looking at this from the wrong direction, instead of me defending the mission perhaps someone out there can tell me why we need to pull out NOW... Below is a poll that suggests that over 54 % of our nation does not agree with our involment in Afgan. Perhaps one of those 54 % can explain to me WHY ? and how you decided on this course of action. As a soldier that has completed 2 tours in Afgan, i like so many thousands of soldiers would like to know why ? and what do you know that we do not ? CTV poll

Actually my question was WHY canadians were so quick to believe here say evidence ? ...And has the majority of Canadians followed the same logic in regards to thier opinions on the mission.? I'm sure i could gather up bus loads of detainess that would swear that the moon was made of chesse if it meant it would benifit thier cause. That does not make it true, if they had hard evidence names, places, medical facts...then it should be made public and investagated to the fullest. Since when do we exclude groups from having a voice, Since it is soldiers taking said prisoners, processing them, and in some cases been accused of breaking conventions we uphold i would hope we had a voice. This is not just about the treatment of prisoners it also reflects on how Canadians view the mission as a whole , with the mission not a very popular choice at this time it has slipped to the minority of Canadians and Soldiers to atleast speak on it's behalf.

Thank you FTA, for pionting that out , the next question should be "WHY" are we so quick to believe heresay, and my final question is Have the majority of Canadians based thier current opinons on the same type of materials.

This is not how we see it, a few weeks ago it was the soldiers that were accused,for abusing prisoners and despite what the forum here believes not all Canadians believe in thier hearts that we are "not" abusing prisoners.. I agree that it should have sparked a debate, if only to clear our name ,but that is not how i or alot of my comrads seen it, instead we seen Canadians actually believeing those taliban scumbags over our own soldiers....It was also used by many different groups whose only interest is ending the mission and if that cost came at our soldiers good name then so be it... And now that those accusations have not bore the fruit and controversy they were meant to, they have changed course and tactics now making the accusation that they were abused in Afgan jails...and here we are right now debating once again "how we are not as a nation living up with our agreements or conventions" and for some reason the Canadian people are buying into the story without any "Proof"...march those guilty pricks in here....see the pattern here... Why the troops are pissed, actually having to explain it kind of proves my piont. but here goes...Our nations troops are pouring everything they own into this mission, around the clock 365 days a year , not only in sweat equity, but living in asture conditions, time away from thier families,loved ones, they risk thier lives daily, they've buried thier comrads with the same crictical thinking...something we all hold near and dear, and yet they continue to do "regardless of what you or the majority of Canadians think of the mission,"they believe in it all" or they would not do the things they do everyday... And when you pour everything you have into a mission, you get attached to it, .... Again that becomes hard to believe when Canadians have made thier mind up with out any evidence, and while it is not all Canadians it still comes as a slap in the face. and brings into question have they forgotten what we've accomplished in Afgan todate. Again the taxes thing, soldiers not only pay taxes but also are allowed to vote, and alothough i'm not pionting the finger at anyone there are some that have said"shut the fu*k up and do what i pay you to do" and that soldiers do not have a vioce in all this... And since we are talking about a democracy and the Canadian people want a say in how we deploy the military they should also be held accountable for it decissions, good or bad, if they were given such power why are we still in Afgan now.....but we both know that is not how things work... But what is really sad is that the soldiers clearly believe in this mission, regardless of cost to them, it is them that have so much to gain from coming home and yet all of that has not changed thier minds...and the majority of canadians seem to either be more informed , or easily swayed by the media...either way they know better than our soldiers, as the polls would suggest. One last piont in regards to all of this ,like you said it is not the military that dictate policy or decide what the mission is going to be, that belongs to our government and the people who hold thier keys via the vote. we like to remind you that at the start of the mission that the majority was standing shoulder to shoulder with us, and slowly decided it was not thier thing....leaving us the soldiers holding the bag alone so to speak with those in the minority. It was Canada's mission, now soldiers are asking where did you all go? I find that just alittle funny, and the same time belittling, Funny because the people that are saying this have not even been there, or spent a just few days on the ground, and what qualifactions do they have. Belittling as they refuse to takethe word of those that are on the ground right now be it soldiers or the RCMP, or the Diplomats, or CIDA pers. what gives , what do you know as fact that we do not.... Lets not talk duty to a soldier, Most Canadians would'nt know duty if it bit them in the ass. But As for duty, lets talk about that for a minute, Are these the same people who had the duty to ensure that this mission was researched and a good one for Canada, and our military, That we had the right equipment for the mission, that we were funded properly for the mission, The same people that for years said nothing as our entire defense struture was deboned, in favour for other social projects. Because now your starting to scare me.. CF site Not true, our mission was very clear at the start, and after that first mission was decided and finshed, The orginal drafters of the first mission agreed to assist in the caring on, and so did the majority of Canadians.. What is frustrating to soldiers is the fact that we are on different plains of thought when talking about this mission. The soldiers are the ones that continue to say it is an honourable one, that it is achievable, that we can make this work if you give us the time...all that not because we have to believe in the mission, making it easier to do, or it is our jobs and what we are paid to do....Soldiers have a historical record of tell the public good missions and bad missions....We have nothing to gain by lying to you, "we do not pray for war",we are not killers by nature...the only thing we would have to gain is living longer, getting out of a war enviroment , spending more time with family and loved ones, doing things all Canadians love to see and do, and watch our kids grow up, and never having someone else show them a picture and having to say this is your dad, he was a good man.... And we have to ask why risk all of that if we did not know we could win this thing...but maybe i'm just some dumb grunt that does not know as much as the average Canadian.

I'm sure that if you took a poll most would be pissed off, the others well they got other things on thier minds like dodging bullets, and IED's....The real question you should be asking is WHY they are pissed off, or did you not hear that part of Hilliers speach...I think they have that right, and the cause to be pissed.... As for no one saying that soldiers did anything wrong BS, These accusations, and i say accusation because nobody has provided any proof of them as of yet..anyway come just weeks after Soldiers ,our soldiers were accused of abusing or handling prisoners roughly, And as soon as they were proven false...they have finally came up with the current accusation...They will continue until they get results... As for the vists by family, sure they would, but lets take a look at that for a minute, the camp takes rocket and mortar fire regularly, it's a military camp set just back of the front lines, would you want your family there ? not really, a vist from lord stanley and some hockey players is a welcome tempory relief from the day to day threats... I've read many posts here and on other forums and media outlets, and Canadians have pionted towards the Military, unlike most other depts ours is one that is close knit and and a finger pionted at the military is one piont at all of us, soldiers, airman and sailors... Below is the article from the Geneva convention that pertains to this situation read it and tell me what you think, keep in mind that the accusations have yet been proven, and that Canadian authorities and diplomats have inspected some of these facilties and have found no prisoner abuse or signs of torture todate... Article 12 Prisoners of war may only be transferred by the Detaining Power to a Power which is a party to the Convention and after the Detaining Power has satisfied itself of the willingness and ability of such transferee Power to apply the Convention. When prisoners of war are transferred under such circumstances, responsibility for the application of the Convention rests on the Power accepting them while they are in its custody. Nevertheless if that Power fails to carry out the provisions of the Convention in any important respect, the Power by whom the prisoners of war were transferred shall, upon being notified by the Protecting Power, take effective measures to correct the situation or shall request the return of the prisoners of war. Such requests must be complied with. Something we have all forgotten here is that our soldiers are carring out this mission as best as they can, and are setting the standards for almost everything we do, and we are doing that without the support from the majority of Canadians...trying doing anything in your life without the support of your family or loved ones and then tell me if it is not mission impossable.... it's truly been an uphill climb all the way... Soldiers are starting to lose taste for this mission, not because of anything the enemy does,or it is un achievable but because the Canadian people refuse to stand shoulder to shoulder with us....They failed to come to the conclusion that thier role in conflict is as important as ours, without thier support we lose....end of story... But when you do pull us home in defeat don't be expecting us to be greatful, and shakin hands and shouting our praise... but instead be prepared to explain why, you sent us over in the first place, explain how we explain to those widows thier loved ones died for what exactly...and if you can't do that then stay the fu*k away from trenton as your not welcome. Got something else to say, perhaps another accusation then spill the beans. Our nations military has done everything it has been asked to do , it has done it all with distinction and accolades. It's got nothing to hide. Yes we as a Nation should respect those treaties and conventions that we have signed, And we have demanded that our forces do respect them as closly as possiable ....That being said our history has shown us that we are in no postion to demand that of another nation, as we our selfs have broken those same treaties and conventions when it suited us. As for those whom it does not pose a problem with have seen this conflict up close and have seen the results of the Talibans brutal riegn of power.. is that an excuse perhaps not but it does explain where they are coming from and just how they developed thier opinions.

Here's a good read. they should atleast give the basics about space based wpns sys that are now operational. Space wpns China russia This one here is very dry and tech but it has more about russias space wpns. very dry reading. Russia's anti mis sys

Actually the genva convention was written as a set of guide lines to which nations could expect the other side to use in event of War. But in War nothing ever goes as per the plan and every nation will break some sort of convention along the way...That much is fact... So basically it is up to the nation and it's people what rules they are willing to play by, what they are willing to live with, and which ones they are going to break. After all history has shown us that very rarely does the victor atone for thier mistakes or crimes.

The Patriot has under gone alot of changes since Desert storm, in fact the US along with the Israelis have done alot of R&D and have greatly improved the entire system. patriot mis arrow THAAD Yes it presents a problem for the long range system, however the mid, and short range systems are not terminal guided, and can change courses as the target does, and have proven very effective again'st A/C and missles. The problem being is you have to be in range to hit it, hence why the US still has fighters in a ready stance on runways, and still patrols with Aegis naval ves. The long range system if perfected would be cheaper in the long run, and would free up assets being used as med and short range.

My Webpage Your right, not in this post, however i mentioned it because the two are linked and i'll explain. It demonstrates how easily we are swayed and how easily the reputation of our military and our nation can be damaged. The accusations of Canadian soldiers abusing prisoners sparked serveral national inquiries, and it did spark great debate in our nation. It amassed me just how fast Canadians changed thier colors and thier support for thier military. This accusation has been debunked , but the damage has been done... This accusation has uncovered another problem the one we are currently discussing, And while i agree it is a problem it is another accusation that has no proof, again Canadians are taking these accusations as being true, and not waiting for the investagations to finish or produce an outcome. Your right , it is our system and we as a nation should be setting the example, i have myself said that although i have been part of capturing prisoners, and ensured that they were respected in all ways while in our custody, that i did not care what happened to them after they left our custody, i admit this is wrong... i also want to add that those we captured were in Operation mudusa and were combantants who just minutes before were bent on killing me and my section. That and the fact i've seen thier handy work in regards to terrorizing the Afganis people. This has tainted my opinion but has also given me something i can relate to on just how the Afganis also veiw these terrorists as it was thier loved ones they practiced thier terror on. although i don't condone torture, i do understand why they do it, and it will take some time to change that.

We've had missle defense for years now, short and meduim range anti missles have been deployed for more than ten years now, and they do work...and most nations have them already... the problem that the US is having now is with thier long range inceptor. and it's only a matter of time before they build one that is sucessful... Iraelis have sucessfully developed a missle that can intercept targets as small as arty shells, the russians have a complete anti missle systems ringing moscow for years. As for developing an arms race , it is already there...

This is an example of a situation gone bad, and nobody making sound and rationally choices...I mean handcuffing a six year old, even a huge 6 year old,. I'd hate to see what the procedures are for high school or even adults Swat team perhaps , shit maybe the national guard....