Army Guy

Black dog: It's funny that the creation of Jordan is not mentioned as a stain ,Just Israel... As for the best solution, you have two enthic groups that are continuily fighting what is your solution if not to separate them.... Let me ask you this question ? if Britain had not divided the areas of Trans Jordan and today,it was still under British mandate do you think that the Jewish people would be there today.... So who is going to pay those that moved...Israel, Britian , the world concil... And if you conquor a nation through war. does that mean you have to pay all those who's land you've siezed...Makes one good case for ethnic cleansing does it not... Again you are extremly confused...you are looking at the UN mandate....you need to look at the 1923 agreement.. Geographical Distribution of the Mandate In 1920, following the defeat of the Turks, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the peace conferences after World War I, the British Mandate for Palestine was created by the League of Nations. The Mandate was international recognition for the stated purpose of "establishing in Palestine a national home for the Jewish people." (See What was the British Mandate?.) The area of the Mandate was originally 118,000 square kilometers (about 45,000 square miles). In 1921, Britain took the 91,000 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate east of the Jordan River, and created Trans-Jordan (later the Arab country of Jordan) as a new Arab protectorate. Jews were barred by law from living or owning property east of the Jordan river, even though that land was over three-fourths of the original Mandate. In 1923, Britain ceded the Golan Heights (another 1,176 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate) to the French Mandate of Syria. Jews were also barred from living there. Jewish settlers on the Golan Heights were forced to abandon their homes and relocate inside the westerb area of the British Mandate. The total remaining area of the Mandate for Palestine, after these land deductions, was just under 26,000 square kilometers (about 10,000 square miles). The southern part of the Mandate – the desert of the Negev – was also closed by the British to Jewish settlement. The area was inhabited by 15,000 roaming Bedouins, and had no Jewish or Arab settlements in it. The balance of the Mandate, the inhabited part of Palestine, and only the part west of the Jordan, was just 14,000 square kilometers. Jewish immigration was limited by the British from time to time, especially after the periods of Arab riots and severely restricted after 1939. At the same time, Arab immigration was not restricted or even recorded. By 1948, when the State of Israel was founded, 1.8 million people lived the western area of the Mandate, estimated to be 600,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. Following the war between the Jews and the Arabs in 1948, the inhabited areas of the 14,000 square kilometers were divided along cease-fire lines between Israel and Jordan/Egypt. 8,000 square kilometers, or 57% of the reduced area (which is only 6.7% of the original Mandate territory), became Israel. The rest of the area of western Palestine, 5,700 square kilometers of historic Judea and Samaria, was annexed by Jordan – and renamed the West Bank - while 360 square kilometers were occupied by Egypt and called the Gaza Strip. Breaking this down into a table: Zone Size in Sq. Km. Percent of Total Control in 1948 Original Mandate 118,000 100% ----- Jordan 91,000 77% Jordan Negev Desert 11,750 9.9% Israel Israel (inhabited) 8,000 6.7% Israel West Bank 5,700 4.8% Jordan Golan Heights 1,176 0.99% Syria Gaza Strip 360 0.3% Egypt And i already know how you feel about annex land through unjust seizure. So by alrights that land according to you should be given back to Israel. And those Palestinians should have 2 options stay and live in Israel as Israelis or move as thier forefathers did to Jordan. The highly respected Enciclopedia Italiana (Vol. 26, "Palestina"; ca. 1930) tells us that the name "Palestine" came "to prevail in modern times" over other names. This change apparently took place out of the "scientific" motive to avoid the religious connotations of Holy Land. Thus Palestine was again a Western name as it had been in ancient times. "Palestine" was first officially applied to the country in modern times in 1920 when the peace negotiators at the San Remo Conference juridically established the country as the Jewish National Home. Before World War I it was an administratively indistinct area of the Ottoman Empire and was shared among various Ottoman administrative departments. Because you are failing to see both sides and why this is such a big deal to Israelis...they see it as another land grab by the Arabs ...and the world see the poor palestinain and thier plight. When dealing with a large group of people your not going to make everyone happy...it's impossable...Had the Arabs all gone to Jordan as per the agreement then the Palestine problem would not exist today... No it does not, but in this case the orginal agreement gave that land to the Israelis, and after the Arab revolt land that was siezed by the Arabs was then given to them by the UN...and in 48 most of that land was taken back by Israel through conflict started by the Arabs ....it only sounds fair to give all that back to the Arabs to have a shakey peace at best....where does it stop...if the PA can not live in peace after Israel grants them all there land back... ARTICLE 2. The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion. OK i agree that you are right they are not the owner of the land out right, however that being said they did have the authority to make those decissions as to who lives where, and who did what...with the powers that the mandate gave them.

How long do we have to look and study the issues...Our PM handled thier leader not like an equal but one of a third world country ...telling him he would send Canada's military down to assist....instead of asking if he could help...did not help matters either... My Webpage

Black dog: Thats a good question, the same could be asked why jews that had immigrated and lived in Syria, Trans jorden,and the rest of the surrounding Muslim countries why were they forced to leave, pack -up and move into lands that the wprld concil had giving them ...Why... it was the best solution at the time even back then the Jews were not wanted both sides could not get along...i believe it also gave the muslim countries an excuse to move thier jews out of thier countries... Mout piont, If the rest of the Muslims had actually followed the UN decission it would have all been a jewish state... Yes it was, It was taken off Turkey, at the end of WWI...Britain did not have to give it to anyone, but instead had used it to solve the problem of these two people and to give them each a state of thier own... Look at a map, compare the size of the state of Jorden....to the state of Israel... That was the first agreement ....Now how could you think the Arabs got ripped off...they were all suppose to move to Jorden....instead they refused ,revolted and in 1947 the UN granted the Arabs additional lands...not in Jordan but out of the piece of what is now called Israel...Note that those lands that were giving were taken by the arabs in combat during the revolt.... Agreed, your use of the Palestinian people is disingenous as it orginally refed to the jews in the area... I would not think so, as it is my house however the UN solution was to fix a bigger problem, and in that context i would say it is right....Your right is not the UN's land to give it was Britains, and they had asked the UN to find a solution...And if the UN decisson is not valued here in this case...why is it that we value their decissions now or for that matter on anything......in Ref to Iraq...or is it that we only decide when we agree with the decissions...Also remember that the UN was alot more powerful then than it is today... Then we must also recoginze that the State of Jordan was also founded on the same....And Yes i am defending colonialism, it is what most of the free world was built on... But it is not theft...the people on the land did not own the land persay, the British goverment owned it out right... Just as in Canada today, how many examples do you know off ...that the goverment be it federal or provincal have asked people to move for things such as highways, airports, dams, etc,etc..

Black dog: There was an earlier partion plan,and it is outlined in the first two maps of the link i gave you... In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had "chopped off" 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning "across the Jordan River"). This territory east of the Jordan River was given to Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia) who was not even an Arab-"Palestinian!" This portion of Palestine was renamed Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan and would again be renamed "Jordan" in 1946. In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed TWICE, in effect, erasing all connection to the name "Palestine!" However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had THEIR "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now. The Palestinian Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs Palestinians.... thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces [iDF]. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the Palestine matter over to the United Nations. The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River. How can you say that Israelis got the large chunk when the Arabs recieved what is now known as Jodan, as thier piece of the land that was divided by the british in 1923...it was after the Arab revolt which Britian walked away from the problem and the UN made another decission in 1947 to carve up more of the Israelis side to give to the Arabs... yes if you looked at the last map in the link i gave you Israel did get the big piece...but that piece is what was left of the 25 % they were orginally given by the British and what was approved by the league of nations in 1923...As for the Arabs having to move It was the league of nations (a world body) that made the first decission .... then the UN carved that territory up again...note they were mandated to move twice by world body....and they choose not to move....i say again they choose not to move from the land that the UN said legally now belonged to Israel....And now You and want them to carve up another portion of Israel to give to the PA....Does this mean if i camp out on your front lawn long enough that i can legally one day call it mine....those territories in the 1947 act were also taken after a war in which was started by guess who...yes the Arabs only after one day of Israel declaring itself a nation... i guess that only counts if your not Israel Why the 1967 line why not give all the territory that was siezed in combat back to the arabs...And i would agree if it meant that the arabs would cease all actions agais'nt Israel and if they did not then they would face the NATO or a similar coalition.... But we both know that is not going to happen, and regardless of what Israel does there will always be fighting ...because this problem is to old and to much blood shed....

Mcqueen : Ok, now i'm confused,We no longer call them terrorist, but insurgents,and now we just call them nutcases....that are attempting to use the Koran to jutisfy thier existance.... Thier believes in the Koran are very real, and they do believe or have interputed from the Koran that thier actions are justified and will be granted full access into heaven through their actions of killing infidels...... I think that qualifies them as a religious fanatic/ Terrorist.. McVey although religious carry out his act because of his hate for goverment, making him just a plain terrorist....

Black dog: Most of the occupied territories remains under de facto Israeli control. Under Sharon's Gaza "disengagement" plan, Israel will maintain control over Gaza’s airspace, its territorial sea, and all border crossings and the Israeli army and security services will continue to have a free hand to operate there. In other words, Gaza will become a prison state for Palestinians, while Israel continue sto use the wall to effectively annex large portions of the West Bank. You're incorrect. The original 1947 partition plan gave the Arabs 43 percent of the land and the Jews 57 percent. Moreover, at the time, Jews made up less than one-third of the population of Palestine. I think you have some of your dates mixed-up The orginal plan was in 1917 the Balfour agreement....and was accepted or incorporated by britain and the league of nations in 1922...it was under this agreement that i got my numbers from. See map below. The British found their promises to the Jews and Arab Palestinians difficult to reconcile. After 1928, when Jewish immigration increased, British policy on the subject seesawed under conflicting pressures. Immigration rose sharply after the installation of the Nazi regime in Germany in 1933, and fear of Jewish domination was the principal cause of an Arab revolt (1936-1939). It was after the Arab revolt that things changed again for the state of Israel Britain finally turned the problem over to the United Nations (UN) in 1947. When the UN proposed partition in 1947, the Palestinians rejected the plan, while the Jews accepted it. A military struggle followed, and the Palestinians were defeated. The state of Israel was established in 1948, and Arab armies immediately attacked it. Israeli forces defeated them, enlarging Israel's territory. See map below Israel 1947. The map below shows Israel after the war in 48 You can plainly see by the maps above that the state Israel is clearly not gaining anything in the way of land mass but giving more to the Arabs....the Orginal plan in 1922 was agreed by Britain, and at the time the league of nations...Including the already establish Arab countries....Even after the new division in 47 by the UN the arabs were not happy... Israel was carved up even smaller..and one day after Israel declared it self a nation the Arabs attacked again.... So my question is how many times is Israel going to have to carve up it's lands...how much is going to be enough for the arabs....And do you really think that the Arabs are going to stop if the grant the PA what it wants... Sorry my Images did not work the maops are located in this link...My Webpage

Black dog: No they are blowing themselfs up in crowded markets,or school busses....Both sides have shed much blood...it will take more than a few generations to fix this problem. Correct me if i'm wrong but most of the land that Israel "Occupies" has been given back to the Palestine authority has it not....Again i ask you to read the below links...as a man who enjoys the LAW... the league of nations had agreed on the division of land for not only the ARABS but for the Jews with the ARABS or decendants of the palestinians... getting over 75 % of the slice to start with and the jews left with 25 % of that slice....it was under british rule that the 25 % shrank to 23 % then to even less...given to the Palestinians...Those Palestinians on those contested lands now want even more of the Jewish slice....History is and will repeat itself...when are the palestinians going to be satisified .....And why can you not see that perhaps the Israelis don't want to give any more.... history. BBC Are you saying that the league of nations or the UN's decission should be ingored...as a law abiding man such as yourself...Israel did not make those decissions nor did they decide that the arabs had to leave the jewish zone or the jews had to leave the arab zones ...that was the league of nations... Yes, the state of palestine as it stands today has been around for how long...it's thriving, it's doing so well in fact as hobbies the send bombers into Israel...the last news special i seen it had quoted that a large number of palestinians are unemployed and the majority that areworking are working in Israel.... Can you give me a link on this I've read a palestinian and Isrealis history of palestine site...and that is harrmony then US and Canada relations must be Bliss.... Correct me if i'm wrong but did i say that 75% of that land was given to the Arabs...and only 25 % to the Jews ....it was not a zionest experiment..well before the first war... Thats a typical Canadian answer...Shhh don't talk to them they'll go away... Responsable leadership is to provide security to all it's citizens...By doing nothing will allow them to do as they please when they please if they know that there will not be any circumstances... Because you such a good teacher....Or maybe it's because i'm more open minded than you... A few Arab leaders, Egypt, Jordan,Syria, and a few terrorist groups to include the PLO now PA....leaders of nations, leaders that have influence over millions...it is a big deal ....the sources are using quotes from the bible to illistrate another piont... Are you saying that is justifaction for sadam to do as he wanted....that we as Canadains should turn our heads and allow this type of things to happen.... Just like we did in Rwanda....It does not make it right...Sadam was a brute now he spends his days in his underwear in a cell.... If we had this attitude when the Nazi's were take in over the world we would be typing in german today...if all the world stood up and said this type of behavior is no longer tolerable what would happen....

Black dog: I will agree to disagree. Your quit right just Sadam and his killing to report ...thats ok because it does not effect Canadians and the US was not involved... I'm trying to understand why you and others on this board blame the US for all the problems in Afgan and Iraq...and Israel got thrown in there some how...when there is always two sides of the story....atleast i have admitted from the start there is alot i do not agree with on US and Israelis matters...but you seem to defend only those actions taken from the US opposite...

Black dog: And yet you continuely blame the Israelis for the palestinians problems... If you truely acknowledge the problem they you must agree that Israel does have the right to take safety precauations in regards to protecting it's people....The check pionts ,curfews,.or the building of the wall...as for the dozing of homes i agree with you but again what chioce do they have when the bombing continue... No it is not the only course, of action,they all could move back into Jordan, as part of the British mandate of palestine. But lets just say that Israel gives them a state of thier own how are the Palstinians going to support such a state...unless you are asking Israel to support them as well....as they do now... Of course the other course of action to give them there state and to complete the wall and to deny palestinians access to Israel... Nothing can stop a determined person from killing anyone...it does not matter how large your nations might...Twin towers taught us that...They maintain military forces in the gaza strip because the Palestinian authority can not control it's all of its people ....they must be able to provide security for it's own people first. Really...Have they every enforced it, as the former Yugo is comprised of little countries that have thier borders changed through war...Cyprus and example...there are many more... Your right, all rephrase my statement in say a large number of muslims leaders and ordinary muslims dislike most Israelis...hows that... That of course had nothing to do with presure from the outside world...and signing papers of any kind does not mean that these same leaders have not publicly in there own countries quoted that there nation or group will not rest until the state of Israel and it's people are pushed into the sea... You cannot be serious these to races have been at each other throats long before western imperialism steped on the stage....one of the reason that Israel came into being is because of the hatred of Jews.... How many did Canada except after the war...compared to other races, we accepted in more german soldiers than we did Jews...Nobody wanted them ...hard to say it's not about race...

Black dog: there's a difference. You may not get it, but they are not the same thing at all. Anyone fighting for the Taliban (again: the de facto national government of Afghanistan at the time) should be accorded P.O.W. status. Why has the international court then filed charges again'st the US and other coalition members in breaking an important convention violation.... I believe the abuse and torture have stopped....and those that are coming out are ones that are being investagating with new charges being brought forward...As for charges being laid i know that some charges have been laid...if more are going to be laid i don't know.... I have made it clear that i do not believe in any mistreatment of prisoners or what ever we are calling them. However there are times when info could save lives and mild forms of torture or punishment should be used...I know what the convention says... City of Ghosts Reconstructiom I read your articles....Yes they show that Fallujuh is heavily damaged...But the interviews done a majority are glad that the insurgents are gone...some blame both sides but none have said that they blame the US totally for the damage done...Here is people who have lost almost everything and yet you sitting in your chair here can only blame the US for everything that has happened...Why is that... To rid the world of one more scum bag, Your not going to tell me that the world would have been a better place with Sadam still in charge...Have you rerad any of those interviews from your links....I feel safe now...was mentioned more than once ...yes there pissed off at losing thier homes Your quote to my statement that the insurgents are undimished ...lossing 1200 in the battle of Fallujuh did not hurt them? Also from your link the Same guy quoted Your last link mentions that in one day 79 Iraqi's are killed and 120 are wounded in Insurgent attacks why is it you only count those killed by the US and what is the total count that have been killed by those loveable insurgents... I forgot the US is the Invader....your posts are one sided

Black dog: No i can not, but then again niether can you. What i see is that you have taken a pro palestinian postion and that they have done no wrong or can do no wrong...you have forgotten is that both sides hate each other, because of this so many terriable acts done by "both" sides... this problem is has gone on to far to long and to many have been personally effected to forget it over night... As for the dozing of homes ,i can think of worse ways in which to handle the situation...Because of the situation of all this hate the palestinians are a threat to Israelis, there national security...You propose the "turn the other cheek" method have Israel pull out and then help the palestinians re-build...And after that then what...What will Israel do if the bombings continue....what is there course of action...They are not in the western world...they live under a severe form of marshal law every day...thats both sides....with both sides living in fear.... Your paper was written in 97, things have change a bit since then, like the wall that is under constrution and nearing completion....what would you do if you could not control the bombing in your cities and you had to live with the rules that you have outlined ...No military sweeps, no retribution ie dozing homes , no check pionts, no curfews...how could you ensure "your" peoples safety....basically giving the palestinians freedom to act as they wish... Correct me if i'm wrong, but all the maps that i've checked including one that was purchased in Israel while i was in the Sinia desert, clearly mark those terrortories that have been occupied...Lands that were Taken after a war or conflict...Those lands although clearly marked as occupied lands are now part of Israel those people where given the option to move back to jorden ETC...Why would Israel give those lands back or even allow the establishment of an independant state... My links are vile, why because i showed you a few examples of what PLO and other Muslim leaders have said...giving you some of the supporting evidence "you " requested. Maybe the links below are more bais...from the BBC etc... More history. BBC history history In the above links there is a maps pre dating 1948... This is pure, unadulterated racism. This also contains this gem: You don't get it do you, this conflict is based on history or precieved history depending on your views with both sides claiming stakes to terrortory and lands dating back before christ... ...And yes this conflict is mostly based on Racism....By both sides...My other Gem as you called it is based on bibical references and history as it has been recorded.... Did you not just post on the Koran...and it's misuse...and yet you freely call the bible a book of fairy tales, and it's referances internut wingnuttery... To understand this conflict one must indulge in the book of "fairy tales" and history as it is recorded....perhaps you can piont me to a better source of info one more acceptable to you....

Black dog: Highly suspect of what, Can you 100 % tell me that the family did not know that thier son or daughter was preparing to become a bomber, said thier good byes ,made last minute arrangements to ensure thier families were looked after....attended religous cermonies ETC ETC.... and yet you are trying to tell me that the act of dozing someones house is disgusting what about the act or the condoning of the act of killing inocent civilians...what about the act of condoning you son or daughter to blow themselfs up.... Perhaps you can show me on the map the state of palestine.... Corrected history of Israel and palestine. History of Israel and Palistine Below are some links i have many more if you want...Not only has the PLO but other muslim countriesas well stated that the total destruction of Israel was a main concern of thiers....Your total denial of both sides of the story is what is getting old...Your a smart guy atleast read those links EX-PLO terrorist Speaks for Israel Push israel into the sea. Push Isreal into the sea ptii Taliban or Alquida you pick...and we have already been through this they are terrorists or the polictically correct insurgents and are not entitled to protection under the convention with exception of being treated fairly,and given thier day in court.... No thier hands where not tied it is one of thier missions to destroy the insurgents where ever they are...and the city was not flattened collateral damage was heavy in some areas but most of the city remains .... They may of not run the best military campiagn in history, but atleast they are there doing a job that needed to get done unlike most other nations that hide in the corner pionting fingers when it suits them....And yes they are the Invader.... Yes you are right the insurgents grow every day, Undiminished i would not say that The US army strength will remain constant regardless of losses, however they are having some recruitment problems... the insurgents recruitment is suffering as well.... The US has unrestricted use of all the roads ,there are problems with mines and IED's but US forces continue to use them....yes the Iraqi army and police have been penetrated, but you failed to mention that even with all thier losses and excutions there is no recruitment problems there...that alone speaks volumes ....

Take anumber: Canadian law states that only one person in a party of two or more has to legally know that a conversation is being recorded. Therefore, reporters are not legally required to tell you before they begin recording your conversation, except when they plan to broadcast your voice. In DND it is legal for a suborinate to record conversations with superiors,or peers with our consent. It is illigal for a superior to record conversations with a suborinate unless he has been informed that the conversation is being recorded...You don't need thier permission just to inform them that a recording is being made...

Cappy: Can you provide a specific example? Granted there is equipment that is only manufacture by a limited amount of manufactures...But for the most part the Specs that DND provides are for a specific type of equipment IE APC(armoured personal carrier) or fighter A/C the specs will tell PWSG what it is that DND wants this equipment to do and they (PWSG)chooses a few examples ... It is very common for our polictical masters to veto DND's final pick and sub it with there own pick ..Good example of this is the LSVW( logistics vehicle wheeled) a 1 and a 1/2 ton truck...DND's pick was rejected...the liberals picked one made by western star in BC it failed all DND's tests...the goverment ordered DND to make it pass, the veh tests had to be taken to the desert in the US...This veh is considered the worst military veh in our fleet. There are many more examples of this.... Our purcurment system is garbage,and needs to be revamped badly...Goverment depts should be able to choose thier own equipment ....the only decission the goverment should have to make is "how much money they are willing to spend" Yellowknife is up north and there is a Detachment of twin otters up there....there were some plans to place a base some where up north for fighters and Transport A/C but DND 's funding is extremly limited....I believe there are going to upgrade yellowknife instead...

Black dog: There are many offensives that they (the Families ) are guilty of....Becoming a bomber is not a matter of just strapping on explosives and lighting the fuse. There is religous rights that are given,family affairs that get sorted out, and many meetings with the terror organization ...my piont is that the family is well aware of the bombers intention...and perhaps even the target ...failure to report those intentions is a crime....Becoming a bomber is a great honour for these guys it is also a sure way in to heaven to die while killing infidels.... The occupation of what? there is no state of palestine so how can it be an occupation....and if one looks at it from a Israelis piont of view they the Palestianians are in Israel occuping Israelis lands.... The Prime motivator for the Palestinians is the complete detruction of the state of Israel and of it's people.... And why should Israel help build a state that is bent on it's total destruction... It is classified as a conflict zone (same thing) tell your insurance company that you wish to traval to the Gaza strip ,ask them if your insurance still covers you in event something happens....The primary targets are terrorists, and thier organizations ....and to weed them out you must go where they live amoungst the other Non combatants.... Intel is the best tool to combating insurgency, and part of the gathering of intel is constant patroling,road blocks,check pionts, sweeps for wpns etc etc...it works because there is no other way, if there is one thing man has perfected and that is how to fight.... The arrests are not arbitrary nither is detention....if you are caught breaking the law you are arrested that could include transporting wpns ,Ammo, not having your papers, housing terrorists, etc etc... Those that in Gitmo now where taken from the battle fields of Afgan....They are without a dought Taliban they were captured after the battle was over or gave up in the trenchs ...Innocent my ass...Again i can not comment of those prisons in Iraq, but odds are they are the same... Take the blinders off, you watched the build-up of the first battle of Fallujah...They actually told the US there would be major reprocutions if they attack the holy city The US had already established it was a major strong hold for insurgents,and was the HQ for a know insurgent leader(i forgret his name) ...So as far as strategic value the capture of the leader alone would have made it valuable....as it being fluid would have made Fallujuh that more important as there was a chance they would stand and fight...which many did.... Many of the insurgents did stay and fight, and the message the US sent was they were there to combat the insurgents where ever they went, it was the insurgents that picked the ground not the US .... Standard tactics are working very well. The US forces will use every wpn available to them to combat insurgents....to save US and coalition soldiers lives....It is after all a combat zone....

Cappy: I have the impression that you have very little idea of how our goverment purchases anything including DND. Perhaps you should go to the PWSG goverment web site...All DND gives them is a fact sheet with specifacations...it does not list makes or models...it is PWSG that picks serveral examples of equipment that best meets those specs...DND tests them makes a recommendation and our goverment masters make the final decission on what equipment is purchased...And like Argus said it normally has a very polictical flavour to it... Unless you are up north then having STOL capabilities is very important...these new aircraft are to replace the Twin Otter. And take on some of the roles that our SAR Hercs now have....

Black dog: Flea bag: One of the motivating factors to get these sucide bombers to blow themselfs -up is serveral muslim countries have donated money to the PLO and other causes in the area. Some of this money is donated to the purchase of the bombers home or to pay the rent of the apt as long as the families of the bombers lives there.... This had become a major problem, and still is....hence the IDF implementing the dozing of homes to elemenate that reason from becoming a motivating factor. Is it a form of group punishment "yes"it is but what chioce do they have...what other course of action is left to them... Under normal circumstances these methods are standard practice, they are to control the population,restrict movement in areas of combat operations, to prevent looting, to restrict the movement of the enemy,to make it easier to secure the area. Rarely does the goverment actually pin piont someone out for arrest. arrests are normally done by intel (Goverment or Military)or military police and ground troops. During the FLQ crises Canada done the same thing with Trudeau enacting the War measures act. giving the Military full control of that area of operations, acting with police they made more arrests than they had jail space....I do agree with you that the military is not very good at police work,But they are not going to send policemen into combat zones. Arrests are just as much as part of war as death is....nobody has got it right yet.... Without trying to sound cold, but the history of War it is always the innocent that pay the most...it is a fact of war, one that cannot be avoided... Again, if those reports are true then those incidents should be investigated...and those found guilty charged... However that being said there is no way i can describe to you what it is like to be in combat or fire your Wpn in anger...Once you enter a combat zone, you are concerned with only one thing keeping you and all your buddies alive,and you do what it takes to do that....Because the Bad guys blend in so well with the civilian population makes this task of not targeting civilians very, very hard...most decissions to pull the trigger are made in Milli seconds...A soldier does not always have the time to decide whether civilian or foe... Again without trying to sound cold but this is War....Urban fighting is very brutal perhaps the closest thing there is to hell.... Yes you are right, attacking military targets are not terrorists acts, your also right when saying if civilians die in that attack they would be considered collateral damage....Car bombs,IED, ETC intended for military targets are not considered terrorist attacks.... Terrorist acts are attacking unarmed inocent civilians, for example a crowded store with no military pers or of military value... to send a message to population... Niether, is Afgan Canada's...Soldiers do not make those decissions on where they go, thier goverments do...I true believe that we are making a difference in Afgan....as for Iraq the jury is still out....i think it will be a long term process....

Black dog: Military incursions into civilian areas...Is the military way of showing of force... destruction of property (such as bulldozing homes and crops),correct me if i'm wrong but the homes that get dozed over are they not the ones of sucide bombers... checkpoints, curfews and arbitrary arrests are examples of collective punishment and are routine in the Occupied Territories...."Check pionts and curfews are not collective punishment but a means of nessicary control of the population and have been used in most conflicts that i know of"...As for the arbitrary arrests i guess that would depend on who you talked to...The IDF has a pretty good intel service and if they are arresting someone it was to be for a reason...remeber Marshall law or it's equilvalent powers of arrest are different and it allows the state or goverment to arrest without warrent or for very little cause. No, but pretty close...even in Canada the goverments powers increase 10 fold... You are right, the onus is on the military on both sides to minimize cilvilian cas at all costs...But there is two sides to every coin the the US militay did warn the civilian pop of it's intentions giving those that wanted to leave the chance to. Fighting in urban areas is very deadly for the attacker...to min cas on the attackers side armies rely on Arty and air delivered muntions more...Thats war... Someone was fighting....who were they if all the insugents melted away.... I'm not going to make any excuses, I've seen war first hand and this is war.....It's full of death...and destruction....thats what happens things and people perish...before you completely make up your mind on what is going on over there atleast research the american view from those that are serving over there or have served there...they'll find that war is a two way street with killing and maiming done by both sides....Right now you see a few bodies and are all pissed off ...rightly so....but not the entire US army is to blame ...or for that matter the entire US....

Eureka: It goes to prove that there is a large foriegn content in the taliban....And I'm not disbuting whether the Taliban is homegrown.... But the fact that it has a large population of muslims from across the globe.... I did not imply that .....you had said .... It was challanged by more than 8 war lords during and after there rise to power...

Black dog: What do you consider collective punishment ? Would you not consider that check pionts,curfews are part of marshall law....And what violence are they using to keep the population in check... My question is how do you run modern military operations against "terrorists or insurgents that continue to use innocent civilains as shields ie use the built-up areas as cover.....This is not the 1 st operation against fallujah...The insurgents know exactly what is going to happen and yet they remain in the confines of the city because of it's added safety, and the PR they get from blaming the damageand deaths on the coalition forces....

Eureka: Thanks for the links? And why is there a difference in Afgan taliban and Pakistan Taliban ? If it was so unchallaged then why did they only control 80 to 90 % of the country?

Black dog: I agree with you, upto the piont of the IDF.... and the coalition forces in Iraq. I don't see the use of terror, to rule, or send a message to others etc. Stalin and Hilter were called many things and i agree they were terrorists, proablably the world most infamous ones. A soldier is governed by the geneva convention,when you step out side of that and deliberately target Non combatants to terrorize them to send a message then i would say you stop being a soldier...and become a terorist... Soldiers are to target other soldiers,military installations, goverment installations,manufacture facilties, other infra structure for instance bridges,TV and radio stations etc...those civilians inside those targets are also targets. The wearing of uniforms does not perclude anyone from being a soldier...That being said i would not want to be a soldier in an uniformed army in combat zone with out one as you would be quickly label a Spy and shot for your efforts... PatM: Hey i'm not talking about cutting off a hand for stealing,or being flogged for whatever..i'm talking about excutions for minor offenses for public entainment or to send a piticular message to the rest of the population.. It is again'st the law in Afgan, Pakistan, India to burn women alive...it is tolerated in some courts or the punishment is laughable...the example i used was for looking and talking to men or boys (not cheating) they were set on fire in public to send a message to others that this loose behavior would not be tolerated...this was a terrorist act... Yes they are two worlds apart, if i murdered someone by setting them on fire then it is a crime ...but if i use that act to send a message to the rest of the women it is using terror to spread the word...and is a terrorist act... A terrorist act. The allieds deliberatly attacked the civilian popualation. Because the germans bombed our civilians first does not make it right.... It is made very clear in the genva convention... I'd call it a very unfortunite, but we do not know the entire story...and we don't know if it was random... Yes it is, and colateral damage is expected,but should not be the norm...in any type of warfare... Are you telling me now that the present goverments in Afgan and Iraq are not legitimate. Resistance to occupation is crap...and when the US and coalition are gone they will be fighting each other...or someone else...most of those fighting are from other muslim countries...who have no vested interest in this fight other than the fact they get to kill infidels ( that includes Canadian soldiers, aid workers,NGO workers, any western person). Eureka: Even the Taliban did not have full control over all of Afgan, The northen allaince for example. For that matter even when the Communist Afgan goverment was in control they did not have full control over the entire country. the war lords are just that... War lords ,they have come to power because they are the the biggest and badest in the area...and they are not all Afganis background as you suggested.....you said "some" stayed as Al Quida but were considered mercs...a Very large portion of both the Taliban and Al Quiada were foreign fighters...I've repeated this dozens of times and have provided you with links to back this info , could you please provide links to back-up your claim.

Black dog: Yes, it would...I pray that it does not as i believe the US has enough on thier plate with Iraq.

Black dog: Grotesque is alittle strong, but OK... i have not once said that i as a canadian soldier that i agreed on what is happening in those countries. Nor do i have a choice on who our goverment chooses as allies...I've been to Afgan and seen with my own eyes some of the terror these Taliban "terrorists" have brought to the people of Afgan and yes it has left a bitter taste in my mouth... Eureka: Read some of those links i gave you and tell me if those are actions of someone whos a soldier....and the answer is no to your second question. they were not terrorist. You lost me here can you explain it again... PatM: No i don't like those people who commit those acts,nor i'm i the guy defending them so i can get an opportunity to slam the US......because i call them terrorists does that make me a bad soldier... I hope you not telling me because they are from a different country, have a different religion that those acts are excussable...makes it all right .... They are crimals but when they use those acts to send a message or to terrorize others it is called terrorism...making them terrorist.....Jugding by what you just said i can join the KKK and still not be a racist....

Black dog: I did read the article, just because it is in written form does not make it true.... below is a few referances... 3M80/Kh-41 MOSKIT [sS-N-22 'Sunburn'] The Moskit is a large supersonic anti-ship missile.[1,2] Designed by the Raduga Design Bureau, development of the Moskit began in the 1970s. The Moskit entered Soviet military service in the 1980s aboard Sovremennyy-class guided missile destroyers and several classes of fast attack boats. An air-launched version of the Moskit was first displayed in 1992, and Raduga also reportedly began designs for a surface-to-air variant. Neither variant had entered production as of April 2002.[3,4] The Moskit's control system is manufactured by NPO Altair.[5] Missile assembly takes place at the Progress plant in Arsenyevo in Primorskiy Kray.[6] The Moskit is powered by a ramjet engine and has an estimated top speed of Mach 2.5. It has a launch weight of 3,950kg and carries a payload of 300kg. The Moskit has a range of 120km (250km air-launched), but tests of the Moskit using a high trajectory showed the possibility of increasing its range to 300km.[3,7,8,] The air-launched version can be carried by Su-27 and Su-33 fighters. There is no known submarine-launched version of the Moskit.[9] Russia's export customers so far include only China, which purchased two Project 956E Sovremennyy-class guided missile destroyers armed with Moskit missiles.[6] China has also recently signed a new contract with Rosoboroneksport to purchase two more destroyers by 2005.[10] There are also reports that China is expected to sign contracts for the air-launched version of the missile.[11] There have also been unconfirmed reports that Iran acquired eight Moskit missiles from Ukraine. Iran has also shown interest in purchasing Project 12421 Molniya missile corvettes armed with the Moskit.[12,13] Moskit Missile Characteristics [7] Length (m) 9.385 Diameter (m) .76 Range (km) 120 (ground-launched), 250 (air-launched) Speed (Mach) 2.5 Launch Weight (kg) 3,950 Warhead (kg) 300 Sources: [1] Steven J. Zaloga, "Missile Markets: Uneven Recovery," Aviation Week & Space Technology, 15 January 2001, pp. 181-183; in Proquest, http://proquest.umi.com. [2] Michael Waller, "Will Gore's slips sink U.S. ships?" Insight on the News, Vol. 16, No. 18, 15 May 2000, pp. 22-24; in Proquest, http://proquest.umi.com. [3] V.P. Kuzin and V.I. Nikolskiy, Voyenno-morskoy flot SSSR 1945-1991 (St. Petersburg: Istoricheskoye morskoye obshchestvo, 1996), p. 332. [4] Eric H. Biass and Roy Braybrook, "Missiles on a cruise," Armada International, June/July 2001; in Proquest, http://proquest.umi.com. [5] Dmitriy Safronov, "'Moskit' stal sovershenno nesekretnym," Kommersant-Daily, 14 April 1998; in East View Russian/NIS Central Newspapers Databases, http://online.eastview.com. [6] Nikolay Novichkov, ITAR-TASS, 16 May 2000; in "First Lot of Russian Moskit Missiles Shipped to China," FBIS Document CEP20000516000142. [7] A.V. Karpenko and S.M.Ganin, "Otechestvennye aviatsionnye takticheskiye rakety," Bastion, 1/2000, pp. 57-58. [8] "SS-N-22 Sunburn," Missile.index Web Site, http://www.index.ne.jp, 1997. [9] Norman Friedman, "India tests new antiship missile," U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, August 2001. [10] Vladimir Urban, "Destroyers of Discord," Novyye izvestiya, 9 January 2002; in "Shipbuilders Squabble Over New Chinese Destroyer Contract," FBIS Document CEP20020109000348. [11] "Russia Plans To Increase Export Of Moskit Missiles To China," Segodnya, 26 September 1998, p. 2; in Defence & Security, No. 116, 30 September 1998; in East View Military and Security Periodicals Database, http://online.eastview.com. [12] Anatoliy Dokuchayev, "Russia Does Its Own Production," Krasnaya zvezda, 30 October 1999; in "Dokuchayev reviews developments in naval armaments in last 2-3 months," FBIS Document CEP19991102000037. [13] Igor Korotchenko, "Vopreki davleniyu SShA," Nezavisimoye voyennoye obozreniye online edition, http://nvo.ng.ru, No. 3, 1 February 2002. [14] Duncan Lennox, "SS-N-22 'Sunburn' (P-80/3M-80 Zubr)," Jane's Strategic Weapon Systems 36, Jane's Information Group Web Site, http://www.janes.com/, 12 November 2001. {Entered 4/19/02 RG} Again i did read the article, but it is out of date most of NATO have been working on this problem for years....the US Navy have developed a counter to this missle. See below reference ...I can provide you with more if you like... Iran can not hope to pin it's defense of it's entire country on one wpn system, even if it is highly capable... My Webpage