Army Guy

A field hospital is a collection of tents, surgons, doctors and various medical techs, they are there to process battle field cas...it's a collection of tents and medical sea cans.....they are not set up to contain or treat ebola.....US military has special units for this, that are tied to their national control centers....they would not have any usefull medical aid to offer other than making patients comfortable and watch them die....how is that useful....How is that a good use of resources..... Now if containment would be through military force then yes, Canada could send in troops.....

Just because the some one with in the nation is sending it does not mean that DND has it or are familar with working with it....

I think there is a huge misconception on what Dart can do and what they can not do, to start with the Dart is not a ready maned unit, filled with guys with specfic training but rather one that is made up on the fly of various people with a broad level of training such as Combat Engineers to run the ROPU unit for water, heavy equipment guys for construction, military doctors and nurses and medics.....lets not forget sometimes pilots stripped from units across the country, mostly from CFB Petawawa..... There is no speciality training involved in most case and certainly none that involves operating in a CBRN enviroment , certainly not a deadly enviroment such as ebola there main focus is reponding to diasters, hurricanes, tidal waves, earth quakes ...they are there to offer some services that may be indemand....providing clean drinking water, treating trama patients, limited constuction, setting up a small camp provide some shelter....those types of things....normally there is a security element in the back ground But ebola and similar infections is way out of there league. Yes they have been exposed to other diseases , those that already have a vacine and can be controled without putting CF pers lives at risks.....Your also ghiving our medical staff to much credit, most "NOT" all of the CF's doctors and nusrses are GP's they deal with colds sprains, broken bones etc.....there are a handful of surgons, but most of those were Reserves, those guys were top notch but i'm sure if you asked them about ebola they would say they don't have the training nor equipment to deal with it.... Even the US military has a specialized unit for this type of problem.....plus they have the facilities which we do not....there is no funding for that.... they can barely put out a surgical hospital and everything that needs , never mind what is required to handle ebola....same goes for DART.... Yes there are risks to being in the military, but they provide extensive training for those risks ...sure we get sot at but the sdds where less than 25 % that was going to happen.....ebola has a much greater risk, plus we have no training , no protective equipemnt , and the chances of dieing from it are alot greater.....I get it that is what you pay us for....not so much....there is a limit to the danger that soldiers will expose themselfs to.....might as well strap on a vest full of explosives....

Sorry, I was refing to the AOR's but the same could be said for the Destroyer, Arliegh Burke class....

Perhaps it is all in the presentation, this is how much it costs to build into canada this will be the gross income injected back into the nation, compared to this is the price of building in South Korea, this is the capabilities our navy gets with those savings....not a PR guy, but i'm sure some univeristy kid could spin this a thousand ways....Saying that i do understand how popular the military is today, and how much it's citizens care about spending.....but at the end of the day the funding we spend on this dead industry will effect the bottom dollar and the dept that is going to pay for that is DND, a good example of that is they are already talking about cutting the frigs numbers down.....like every project we get into.... I also starting to question the whole ship building project is it worth rebuilding a dead industry to have it go limp after this project is completed....

So my question is has someone checked out that fact, or are we just trying to build a dead industry on the backs of DND capabilities....

That is my piont , we are not doing it now, and we are not sure we can even do both frigs and destroyers with similar designs and not cut capablities or have other effects some place else....as far as i know this is not a common practice with other ships is it? since the designs are not picked or ready yet why not adapt the new frigs to have similar sys as the Arliegh burkes..... Not trying to be a smart ass, but was it not you that said want an AOR build an AOR, want a Amphib build an Amphib.....i get the fact that some compromises have to be made, i'm just saying want a destroyer lets build a destroyer.....lets get the one that will do the job for the next 30 years....

This is just some army guy spewing , i claim to no very little about things navy, I read alot of material on the new Type 45 and the french Horrizon, and they sound like all the tech inside and outside are of the very latest, including the new hull designs which have a stealth factor to them....Your concern was wpns and other stuff not being american....and the supply chain for american goods is shorter....great what if we kept the hull and other stuff and just changed out wpns, wpns sys, fire control, radar and sonar.....would we not be ahead of the game meaning have a superior design with the latest in sub systems or would it just be unaffordable.....my reason why is the Arliegh Burke are at the top of their field, with the inside, but their hull design and stealth tech is not up to the Euros standard.....this would give us the best of both worlds..... That makes sense, but is it cheap enough to really make a difference , i mean france or britian have been lobbying Canada to get their foot in the door, perhaps pricing may not be that much of an issue... On the other hand you have said the american sys are very expensive both in price and operation,sounds like we are screw if we do screwed if we don't at one piont we need to make a call, spend the extra dollars and get all the checks in the box, such as being able to operate side by side with a US naval battle gruop..... but what are we really talking about here 3 to 4 ships in the destroyer class

Do you think the Canadian public will raise that much stink about 3 or 4 ships built else where for cheaper, but more capabilities.....although i do like the idea of buying american, and they do have a new design out.....

I think your misunderstanding me, i was talking about destroyers period , i was under the understanding that the destroyers were not part of the CSC my bad, that being said if there is a neeed , and perhaps the policical drive to change it why can't the Destroyer block of the CSC be removed or changed, hence why i asked if steel was being cut or contracts signed....if it is not to late then why not..... I've never been a team player when it comes down to the CSC, and all these ships being built in Canadian yards, for alot of reasons , DND contracts should never be used as job creation projects first and for most....And although i would agree it would be a player in talks..... ,but the prime concern should be getting the most bang for our buck in regards to kit purchased. not rebuilding a dead industry that we let die in the first place....and 30 years from now we will be in the same boat.....nothing will change we will pay more for less...again....

Here WT have a snickers you get loopy when your hungry....

I'm guess that having the designs changed to fit American standards ie wpns and such, would make them very unaffordable...Although something we have done in the past.... ie Subs....I get the whole interoperability thing, how ever as NATO operators one would think that their designs could fit into a US Naval battle group offering much of the same capabilities. And with that in mind could we not just switch out wpns systems....i mean the Type 45 and new horrizon are the latest and greatest designs. and with our record of keeping ships well past their sceduled life times, would it not make sense to get the best on the market....Not that the US designs are no good, but they have not changed much in the last 15 years, exception being their latest zumwalt which is price beyound our reach. What makes they so expensive to operate ? i mean we were just discussing leasing those AOE which seem to need thier own oil field to operate.... I also understand the want to have a common root design for training and supply chain, but one has to ask why would it over ride and drive the entire project. we have not done it in the past, shit even the last batch of Frigates were not built to the same specs, with minor changes to each, as different shipyards put them together.... I was under the understanding that the new frigate design was already chosen, if it was, was the design able to be converted into a destroyer.... if it was not then the whole common thing is out the window....besides we are not talking about creating a whole US fleet of ships but rather 4 to 6 of the same class....I'm starting to understand why you said this should have been a separate project combining them may have to many moving parts....

Not sure why that is, if there is a policitical want , presure from oposition to make this happen,then why not have they cut any steel for them yet ? is the contract set in stone.... there is also the possiablity that the oposition could make it a election promise trying to win some support by looking like a hero. ...I mean the british just purchased a ready made AOR from the Koreans, at a bargin price....so there are alternatives out there....

Yes i get the whole idea behind the program, but like what has already been said they were counting on our current fleet of destroyers life span to be much longer...that and the fact oppositon has been chirping that something has to be done, NDP leader had a nice piece on it....not that one speach is going to change anything, but it may have them take a second look.

Lots of new designs out there new British and french destroyers look very capable, also what of the US Arliegh burke class...also the Israelis have come out with a new mini covette, the SAAR 7 looks like it would have more teeth than a AOP. not sure if it would hold up to north atlantic weather....

Just a question why are we purchasing the a model vice the c is it all about pricing, when you look at the stats the c model looks like the better aircraft.

And i think that is why it is not well liked in the Navy, like getting assigned to a tug or something lacks the adventure and all that goes with being a combat ves....which is why i think they would perfer a corvette of some sort, small, agile, still has teeth, i think it would offer so much more than a slow round AOP..... not sure Littoral ships come in that size do they? Given the recent anoucements about the retirements of most of the destroyers one would think they would be pushing to fast track it.....if they did what design would you predict....

Hard to travel without one, most countries will not allow you to board or pass through security without one...even at Canadian customs you need to show it, so you'll be flagged , and held until they decide to release you....

you mean as a mine sweeper, or artic patrol ves.

I think someone should really question do we need AOP's to start with....There are rumors that the navy are'nt really excitied about this new class of boats, i've talked to a few SNR NCO's in Halifax , they had nothing good to say about the AOP's ,they would much rather have a covette take over the minual tasks....i tend to agree if your going to add to the number of hulls in the fleet might as well be something with some teeth.... Destroyer replacement was left off the ship building program, maybe it's time to add it on...lots of good designs out there....

So your your saying the invasion was a stupid idea, without any cause,that Iraq would be better off with Sadam in charge ? i'm sure there are a few people that would disagree, Your also saying that life was grand and wonderful under sadam and all his subjects were happy and content....you also apply that the Sunnis were not planning anything until after the invasion...do you have proof of any of this.....or is this just your opinion..... I get that a power vaccuum was created, along with that more issues however the invasion had limited objectives, one to remove Sadam and his supporters from power...to do that one had to dimantle his military .....that was done, next was to offer the IRAQI citizen a chance at installing a government that would work for all....last time i checked that was done through elections was it not.....So the people spoke....now you have people who are not happy, but that does not give them the right to take what they think is theirs through force does it..... You may not of said it directly but you sure implied it....You are again'st any military action by the west to stop this, you know that nobody else is going to do it....If military action is not going to solve anything "WHAT WILL". As for is it all right or not ....it is the entire piont....if there is no consquences for this type of action then why not let Russia swallow up what it wants, why not let any country take what it wants....as long as it does not directly reflect or effect you.....Is that what your saying because thats the gisat i get from your postings.... My solution is not to Kill them all, it is to stop they from further killing, to show the world there are consquences of using military force to take what is not yours. And your right i don't need to understand them....what they are doing is wrong period . and the world should not be sitting around waiting to see if it develpoes into something bigger.....

And yet you support funding and arming the the Kurds, which we have no idea on how that will work out either. so what is it , stop arming groups around the globe or pick and choose. Not sure what conflict your talking about, in regards to Syria, and the Russians, as Syria has always been under Russian infuence.... Alqueda was not even an organization in the 80's, and certainly not engaged with the Russians, Perhaps we should raise our standards....but what impact will that have on todays problems we have , do you think that the Muslims will stop and take notice....this late in the game. Do you really think it would be that easy, Assad would step down because that is what his people wants.....is that why he has used his aircraft and armour for....Or is it if you want to remove a dictator it has to be by force.....this is really reality 101, he's in power because he wants to be , and is not ready to step down....I think you overestamate his power and support at this time....I'm not saying he has none, but if he had the majority this conflict would be over by now... I get that, i took a short cut could have listed all the Arab / muslim countrys in one basket.... Another reason to do nothing....and why is it we need these pecker woods again.....are they adding to the stablization of the region, are they not breaking inter national law and the conventions, are they not killing thousands for the only reason of their not like them.... Any force can be defeated through the use of force....where does the taliban seat of power rest today....not in Afghanistan....Well perhaps you can provide a link that says the West is not the most powerful military force on the planet....then explain how ISIS is doing again'st western air power....

Are you saying the current land mass under ISIS control , via captured military equipment is not sufficient to act ? do you think that they are finsihed with grabing territory ? or they will continue ? do you think that this action posses a threat to IRAQ or Syria stability ? or for that matter is it good for the stabilty of the region..... And what of the the problem with inter national law, or the Genva conventions which forbid any one group, or nation from using force to make a policitical statement such as siezing more territory or siezing control over territory that is already recongized as a nation itself. IE IRAQ or Sryia. If those are not sufficient enough then it raises the question why even have these laws on the books, if they are not to be enforced or had consquences attached to them.... I agree, some what that there needs to be more thought put into this problem, however like i have said before, if there is no reaction to these groups they will srpout up in greater numbers, there needs to be a number of checks and balences which are already in place....such as the reaction to ISIS . US aircraft are pounding them where ever they find them, trying to contain the spread of not only their military forces but to their idealogy. I'm not sure how to respond to that, are you suggesting diplomatic talks ? and if so what do you have to offer that is going to make this go away.....we don't have the power to give them a nation without IRAQ and Syria permission do you think that will happen.....i don't think so....so what is the other options....and while you ponder that they will continue to cleanse the areas and people will die.... your putting alot of of responsabiltiy on the Kurds, and who is to say that is the right decision.....who is to say they will not be consumed by the ISIS threat.....or is that the line you are drawing in the sand, one that will spur you into action....And what of the southern states, what if they to get over thrown, one after another and the region gets so unstabized that it draws other nations into the fray....now you have the whole region inflames....and a much larger problem to solve..... As for them gaining recruits via the crusaders.....they will gain recruits all the same, the west will be painted as the monster, and it will have the same effect....everyone forgets that most of these nations are dirt poor, education levels are not the same as the west, it is easy to whip them into a frenzy if done correctly, through religion, through governmental interference..... So did Sadam, and yet where is he right now....where is his mighty army....who can not contol even ISIS right now..... Radical iSlam is not a new topic , Islam has always had it's radical elements.....just with different disguises and masks....but it has always been that way....not because we kicked Sadams ass, or got involved with this country or another.....and certainly not because the west purchases oil off of them, when the entire world is dependant on that oil supply....not just the west....it is not our fault because the dictators or kings fail to distribute that wealth properly....i'd like to hear that explained actually how did that thought take form.... On one hand you paint the west as the bad guys, then go on to blame Saudi Arabia, and it's new religion....i'm getting confused....who's fault is it...

Bullshit, give us all a source that without out can doubt pin piont the west engagement in the middle east to the raise of this terrorist group.....I forgot your a canadian that makes it a past time to blame the US for everything ongoing in the world....and these terrorist pukes shoulder none of the blame.....it's always the US fault.... What your saying is we need the sadams in the world to hold these peckerwoods at bay....and yet how many inocent people died in Iraq as Sadams family marched them into the desert to be shot in the back of the head, or how many died in gas attacks.....that bastard got what he deserved....And i' sure millions of Iraqis would agree..... What i gleen from your post is we need dictators around the globe to keep muslims and other nationalities in check....you also agree it's all right to use military force to take what you want , when it suits you....to cleanse large swaths of land of anyone who does not share your dreams and goals....what you agree with is might is right ..... loike i said before when is it you draw the line, at our boaders, your front lawn.....when is it we as a nation take any action....do we wait until the whole region is one festering boil that draws in a major conflict....only because your afraid of making things worse.....i get it we annouce a travel advisory, we pay stupid prices for oil, we take in thousands of those brave enough to escape....and we watch as thousands die.....that sounds like the answer you want... we raise our middle finger to ISIL....and say kill as many as you want...who cares....

Involvement will stop the military threat, destroy ISIL in it's tracks or diminsh it to the piont that it's no longer a threat.....Seasons fighters in their on turf are not an issue, hard for them to stop western military strenght...And what ever is claiming they have the support of the people, but it is at gun piont, that kind of support is easily lost... you quote alot of missions or conflicts you and others claim as losses or messes. and while some are true, Vietnam, somalia they were losses, because the citizens of the west got tied of waiting for a victory....and they left..as for the rest Iraq last time i heard sadam was dead, yes it left a power vacuum, which the people of Iraq were suppose to fix, and only the people can fix that....same as Afghanistan, the taliban have been kicked out of the country, again only the people of Afghan can fix how they are to be governed, but i can bet you a month wages that not to many Afghans want the taliban back if given a choice.....Libya....well once again Kadafi is long gone so is his regime..... Freedom is a powerful thing it may be temporily granted with military action, but it is the people who decide how they want to be governed....and keep that type of government....yes the military force can provide the security element to make it a smoother process, but it is the people that decide if they want peace, and how they are to be governed.... So you can blame the US or NATO if you like however it all comes down to the people and what they want....in places like Iraq and Afghanistan they are not sure or so used to being beaten down they don't know how to govern themselfs....but when you look at syria, they know what they don't want and that is Asad and his bullies...... So are these types of military interventions worth it..I'd yes , are they effective in most cases, does they're need to be other componets or depts involved in bring some sort of gornment to bear thats our down fall....