carepov

Wrong. Israel, unlike any of its neighbours, strives to exist for the benefit of all her citizens. The State of Israel will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice, and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed, or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education, and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. https://israeled.org/resources/documents/israel-declaration-independence/#:~:text=The State of Israel will,the full social and political

How about we rank the following countries/territories in terms of the values that are important to you. For example, where do Palestinian people enjoy the highest standard of living/freedom etc: Israel Egypt Jordan Sýria Lebanon Westbank Gaza Saudi Arabia UAE

At least now you are saying that there are differences between various terrorist groups that require different approaches. As I've said before, try listening to the actual words of the terrorist groups. You may be surprised. Gaza could have transformed itself into a nation state. Elections were held, billions of dollars were made available. I can guarantee that Israel would much prefer a Gazan/Palestinian nation state (like Jordan) than the status quo. If Gazans and west Bank Palestinians opted for peace, the Israeli Hawks would be voted out.

It would be great if Hamas disbanded like the IRA and ETA. The Islamic elements of Hamas make it very different though. Who's job is it to provide these things (courts, education, etc..)?

I like how you think in terms of Venn diagrams. There are Venn diagrams for different causes of terrorist groups and other diagrams for how to deal with them. Let's not forget religion. It is a major factor. Ideally yes, improve the lives of all people and then there would be no support for terrorist groups. Sadly, the world is not ideal and I am having a hard time coming up with examples of terrorists being eliminated this way. Perhaps the IRA? One could argue that this is partially how Israel dealt with the PLO as living standards in the occupied territories increased. How would you deal with Hamas? Isis was defeated by force and so were many other groups around the world. I noticed that you had no comments about the other terrorist groups that do not fit your simplistic single-venn-bubble model. (Eg Boko Haram) Don't forget the roll of Egypt in "imprisoning" Gaza. Regarding Israels manipulation and control of Gazans, this is very a very condescending attitude towards Gazans. Their leaders chose to source and fire rockets and plan end execute 10/7. Wouldn't you agree?

No, the topic was Arab-israelis. Compare them to how Jews are treated in Arab countries. On the basis that Israel is one one the most progressive societies in the world. One of the first to grant women full rights. Gay marriage, etc... On the basis that Arab Israelis have representation in the Knesset proportional to their population (how many countries can make that claim about minorities?) Arab Israelis are judges, doctors, entrepreneurs, soldiers, etc... For a real example of discrimination look up the status of Palestinians living in Lebanon.

You seem to have absolutely no understanding of terrorist groups. Again, listen to what they call for they are not a response to injustice they are calling for MORE injustice!! Do you realize that they would kill you mercilessly, assuming that you are non-muslim? You do not care about Hamas? That is a luxury that Israel does not have. Do you realize that a majority of people in Gaza and the Westbank support Hamas? Again, my argument is this. If you are calling for the elimination of Israel (not you but those that are anti-Zionists) then you are an antisemite. The same way as if you called for the dismantling of Ukraine you would be an anti Ukrainian bigot. If you support the existence of Israel, you are, by definition, a Zionist. This is black and white. You can be a Zionist but oppose settlements, borders, etc... I will look into your claim about the treatment of Jews by the Ottomans. Again, please stop being so condescending towards Palestinians and Arabs. They are not victims of Jewish manipulation, their leaders have far more control over their fate than you think. Listen to what they say and judge them by their actions.

Yes, it matters. There are two sides in this war and the values of each side absolutely matters. Many people cherry-pick the worst actions taken by Israel/IDF. Fine. They lied, they messed up, they destroyed homes, some extremists call for genocide, some people are racist. True and reprehensible. Then compare these faults to the worst parts of the other side (listed above). The other side is worse. Next, compare the best parts of Israeli society (also listed above) with it's neighbors. You can add impressive humanitarian aid, for example helping Syrian refugees and medical aid of people from "enemy" countries. Other than hummus and shawarmas, I cannot think of any positive parts of Arab society. Am I ignorant, yes. So please, anyone, enlighten me of some of the positive/altruistic aspects of neighboring Arab societies that reflect positive values.

I have not narrated my version of history. My original claim was that that Israeli settlements do not cause Palestinian violence and supported this claim by narrating acts of Palestinian violence that pre-dated settlements and of course post-dated the withdrawal of settlements. I never said that Jews/Israel are the pure white good guys, they have made a lot of f-ups, like every country. Regarding your comments on the Balfour Declaration and other history from the times (population/land percentages), yes it is important to know but not really applicable to todays situation. Remember: -In 1914 the population of Palestine (now Isreael+Gaza+Westbank) was 689,000, now it is 14,000,000 -You quote % land of Palestine, why not % land of all British Territory in the ME, how much is Arab and how much Jewish? -Who were the "indigenous people" or the "rightful owners" of the land at any point in history? There were people moving into this area from all around the world including Arabs from surrounding lands -The times were different. The injustices committed in Palestine were regrettable but pale to the injustices of the entire 20th century. Gaza is part of Palestine. 0.715 HDI on par with Jordan and Lebanon. You are wrong about terrorism. Why not try listening to what the terrorists actually say, read the Hamas Charter (supported by a majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, but not supported by Palestinian-Israelis), read Osama Bin Laden's manifesto. What current conditions cause: Al-Shabaab, ISIS, Boko Haram? Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights Of course here is racism and discrimination in Israel, Canada, US, Japan and everywhere else in the world. With such excellent representation in Political, Cultural and Economic life of Arab-Israelis, I would argue that there is less racism and discrimination in Israel that almost anywhere in the world. Certainly less than anywhere in the Middle East. I suspect that there are similar anecdotes of racism on Wiki pages from evry country of the world. If Palestinians stopped violence/terrorism there would be peace. If the UN partition Plan would have been accepted, there may have been peace. If Olso would have been accepted there may have been peace. Perhaps Israel's actions are hostile, but they are not to blame. Hamas and its supporters are against the existence of Israel, independent of what actions they take. You make some good points, and yes, I see your point about the hypocrisy of the right of return, and have more questions than answers. The Jewish people are the closest thing to living indigenous people of the land. Was their right to return de-colonizing? There was probably some portion of the 750,000 Arabs displaced in 1948 that should have had the right to return. Some may say no because it was the Arabs that started the war. How may Arabs were 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation? Does it matter? No one seriously thinks now that the 5,000,000 descendants all have the right to return. Until the war of 1948 there were no Arabs displaced by Jews. Jews immigrated and purchased land legally remember the population was a fraction of what it is today, there was plenty of land to share. There is no way to correct for all of history's injustice. There are now 14,000,000 people on this land and all deserve to live in peace. The first step is to stop the violence and the only people that can do that are the leaders of the Westbank and Gaza.

Do I understand you correctly, are you claiming that at one time in history there were Jews living under Arab/Muslim rule where there was "little or no beef with Jews"? OK good, you therefore support Zionism. For 76 years Israelis have been "investing in a pluralistic society that respects and helps to develop a quality legitimate Palestinian nation-state neighbor." There is no current legitimate Palestinian leadership.

Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights Bingo. Of course here is racism and discrimination in Israel, Canada, US, Japan and everywhere else in the world. With such excellent representation in Political, Cultural and Economic life of Arab-Israelis, I would argue that there is less racism and discrimination in Israel that almost anywhere in the world. Certainly less than anywhere in the Middle East.

Yes, and Israel is one of them. Are there any other pluralistic societies in the Middle East/Arab World? You should try listening to what terrorist originations actually say and write. Hamas does not call for a two-state solution. Hamas is calling for the death of all Jews. Is/was the US or Israel to blame for ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, IRA, FLQ, ETA...? I did not say "disliking" I said "opposing the exitance of"

Michael, if a person were to oppose the existence of an Islamic State, would that person be Islamophobic?

That's why it is anti-Semitic. Without a state with a Jewish demographic majority, Jews would be killed. This is proven by: a) History of many places where Jews are a minority b) Current policies and recent actions by surrounding Arab populations What rights do Jewish-Israelis have that Arab-Israelis do not? Aren't there many countries that can be called a ethnostates? (a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group) Japan? Belgium? Northern Ireland? Latvia? Estonia? Switzerland? Iceland?

History does not have “sides”. Your narration is false: The British handed off to the UN, the UN parting plan of 1947, that would have created 2 states was accepted by the Jews and rejected by Arabs: “The Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation, accepted the plan, and nearly all the Jews in Palestine rejoiced at the news. The partition plan was rejected by the Palestinian Arab leadership and by most of the Arab population.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#:~:text=In%20September%201947%2C%20the%20British,of%20the%20Homeland%20is%20illegal. The British were gone. After 1948, Gaza was then fully under the control of Egypt and the West Bank was ruled by Jordan. There we no Jews in these lands. No, the PLO was formed to eliminate the state of Israel. Also false. Proposing that there is some kind of equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians is also false. Let’s compare: Israel, warts and all, are defending their people: -Their constitution is one of peace -As a country, they have the power to kill/displace all Palestinians, yet they restrain -Practically every young Israeli goes through military service and walks around with a machine gun, yet they restrain -Build bomb shelters and the Iron Dome to defend their civilians -In Israel, there are 2 million Arab-Israelis with full citizenship and rights living in peace and security -Israel is among the best countries in the world for women's rights -Ditto for other minority rights -Ditto for free speech, religion and other civil rights Hamas, in contrast: -Openly calls for the destruction of Israel in their constitution -Rapes women and celebrates this and violence -Kidnaps babies and seniors -Promises to repeat the attacks of 10/7 -Rewards people and their families for killing Jews -Fires rockets into Israel -Uses civilians as human shields -Kills homosexuals -Women's rights? -Minority rights? -Free speech and democracy? Israel is defending itself from violence. If even the Palestinian violence stops – there will be no more Israeli violence. How much more proof do you need: -Peace with Arab-Israelis -Peace or building towards peace with the majority of all neighboring countries You are making my point: a guy goes for a walk and this triggers a wave suicide bombers. Gaza was not an “open air prison”: Before 10/7/2023 the standard of living in Gaza is comparable to all other Arab countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index_by_region Don’t forget to tell the “other side” of your so-called balanced historical narrative, the election of Hamas then the civil war in Gaza followed by rocket attacks. False: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel is nothing like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws#:~:text=The%20Jim%20Crow%20laws%20were,term%20for%20an%20African%20American. I can think of nowhere else in the world where any group of refugees have this so called “right of return” and live in “refugee camps” for 76 years. From the millions of displaced Germans, Hindus, and others in the 20th century to the millions fleeing Syria and Ukraine in our century. Segregated? Israeli-Arabs are full members of Israeli society. Did you know that Arabic is one of the official languages of Israel? Free movement of Palestinians is restricted due to violence. Want proof: look at the number of suicide bombings before and after the construction of the wall. So, what would happen to the Jewish community in Hebron without state protection? 20 % of Israel is non-Jewish, so wouldn’t it be reasonable if 20% of a state of Palestine be non-Arab?

I used to agree with you (i.e. condemn both sides), now, after researching the topic since 10/7 I am no longer anti-settlement for the following reasons: 1. Arab violence against Israel has nothing to do with settlements. This violence pre-dates 1967 and even 1948. Why was there no Palestinian State established between 1948-1967? How do you explain the founding of the PLO in 1964? The Hamas charter makes no reference to settlements, they want to eliminate all Jews from the river to the sea. Multiple offers of land for peace have been refused by Palestinian leaders. Israel withdrew all settlements from Gaza in 2005, the result was MORE violence. 2. There are 2 million Arab-Israelis (20%) living peacefully in Israel enjoying full rights and high living standards. Why can there not be any Jews living in Arab lands, even lands where Jews are "indigenous", such as Hebron?

No, I would bet that almost all Jews in Israel, left or right, religious or secular are Zionist. Check out Noa Tishby and her book Israel.

There was no subjugation. But, for the sake of argument, let's say there was. So then why do Palestinians living in Israel enjoy the highest living standards and the free-est lives of any other Arab nation? Why is there no significant "resistance" from these 2 million Palestinians?

Supposition? Without military strength to defend themselves, there would not be barely a single Jew alive in Palestine. This is not supposition, simply read the Hamas charter. Listen to the leaders of the Muslim world now and over the last 80 years. Look at what happened to other Jewish communities in the ME.

It is because of the unique circumstances of Israel and the Jewish people. There is only one Jewish state in the whole world. Without this unique state, there would be terrible suffering of Jewish people. Hence, anyone that opposes the existence of this state is in favour of causing suffering to Jewish people. To be clear, it is absolutely fine to criticize the politics of Israel.

It may not be based on "anti-jewish prejudice" (i.e. anti-Semitism) but it is anti-Semitic. ... Regarding the crusaders. Maybe. I assume that the Mamluks were anti-Christian.

Those are good points/questions that had me stumped for many years. Regarding the tradition of Jewish anti-zionism. Natasha Hausdorff made an excellent comparison in the Munk debate. Before having a child a couple can legitimately discuss the pros and cons of bring a new life into the world. This would be analogous to to the traditional anti-Zionists pre-1948. Once that child (the state of Israel) is born, there is no going back, you take care of her the best you can. Today's Jewish anti-Zionists are either: -virtue signaling to gain status -concerned only to make money off books and interviews -ignorant -something else?

More or less, Yes. Anti-zionism can be based on either ignorance or anti-jewish prejudice. But it is anti-Semitic either way.

Would you agree with wiki? Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of Israel as a Jewish state, in particular, a state with a Jewish demographic majority.[13][14][1][15][16] It has also been described as Israel's national or state ideology.[17]

1.From wiki: Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism)[a] is hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against, Jews. 2. Israel is not engaging in mass expulsion