carepov

Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights Bingo. Of course here is racism and discrimination in Israel, Canada, US, Japan and everywhere else in the world. With such excellent representation in Political, Cultural and Economic life of Arab-Israelis, I would argue that there is less racism and discrimination in Israel that almost anywhere in the world. Certainly less than anywhere in the Middle East.

Yes, and Israel is one of them. Are there any other pluralistic societies in the Middle East/Arab World? You should try listening to what terrorist originations actually say and write. Hamas does not call for a two-state solution. Hamas is calling for the death of all Jews. Is/was the US or Israel to blame for ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, IRA, FLQ, ETA...? I did not say "disliking" I said "opposing the exitance of"

Michael, if a person were to oppose the existence of an Islamic State, would that person be Islamophobic?

That's why it is anti-Semitic. Without a state with a Jewish demographic majority, Jews would be killed. This is proven by: a) History of many places where Jews are a minority b) Current policies and recent actions by surrounding Arab populations What rights do Jewish-Israelis have that Arab-Israelis do not? Aren't there many countries that can be called a ethnostates? (a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group) Japan? Belgium? Northern Ireland? Latvia? Estonia? Switzerland? Iceland?

History does not have “sides”. Your narration is false: The British handed off to the UN, the UN parting plan of 1947, that would have created 2 states was accepted by the Jews and rejected by Arabs: “The Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation, accepted the plan, and nearly all the Jews in Palestine rejoiced at the news. The partition plan was rejected by the Palestinian Arab leadership and by most of the Arab population.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#:~:text=In%20September%201947%2C%20the%20British,of%20the%20Homeland%20is%20illegal. The British were gone. After 1948, Gaza was then fully under the control of Egypt and the West Bank was ruled by Jordan. There we no Jews in these lands. No, the PLO was formed to eliminate the state of Israel. Also false. Proposing that there is some kind of equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians is also false. Let’s compare: Israel, warts and all, are defending their people: -Their constitution is one of peace -As a country, they have the power to kill/displace all Palestinians, yet they restrain -Practically every young Israeli goes through military service and walks around with a machine gun, yet they restrain -Build bomb shelters and the Iron Dome to defend their civilians -In Israel, there are 2 million Arab-Israelis with full citizenship and rights living in peace and security -Israel is among the best countries in the world for women's rights -Ditto for other minority rights -Ditto for free speech, religion and other civil rights Hamas, in contrast: -Openly calls for the destruction of Israel in their constitution -Rapes women and celebrates this and violence -Kidnaps babies and seniors -Promises to repeat the attacks of 10/7 -Rewards people and their families for killing Jews -Fires rockets into Israel -Uses civilians as human shields -Kills homosexuals -Women's rights? -Minority rights? -Free speech and democracy? Israel is defending itself from violence. If even the Palestinian violence stops – there will be no more Israeli violence. How much more proof do you need: -Peace with Arab-Israelis -Peace or building towards peace with the majority of all neighboring countries You are making my point: a guy goes for a walk and this triggers a wave suicide bombers. Gaza was not an “open air prison”: Before 10/7/2023 the standard of living in Gaza is comparable to all other Arab countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index_by_region Don’t forget to tell the “other side” of your so-called balanced historical narrative, the election of Hamas then the civil war in Gaza followed by rocket attacks. False: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel is nothing like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws#:~:text=The%20Jim%20Crow%20laws%20were,term%20for%20an%20African%20American. I can think of nowhere else in the world where any group of refugees have this so called “right of return” and live in “refugee camps” for 76 years. From the millions of displaced Germans, Hindus, and others in the 20th century to the millions fleeing Syria and Ukraine in our century. Segregated? Israeli-Arabs are full members of Israeli society. Did you know that Arabic is one of the official languages of Israel? Free movement of Palestinians is restricted due to violence. Want proof: look at the number of suicide bombings before and after the construction of the wall. So, what would happen to the Jewish community in Hebron without state protection? 20 % of Israel is non-Jewish, so wouldn’t it be reasonable if 20% of a state of Palestine be non-Arab?

I used to agree with you (i.e. condemn both sides), now, after researching the topic since 10/7 I am no longer anti-settlement for the following reasons: 1. Arab violence against Israel has nothing to do with settlements. This violence pre-dates 1967 and even 1948. Why was there no Palestinian State established between 1948-1967? How do you explain the founding of the PLO in 1964? The Hamas charter makes no reference to settlements, they want to eliminate all Jews from the river to the sea. Multiple offers of land for peace have been refused by Palestinian leaders. Israel withdrew all settlements from Gaza in 2005, the result was MORE violence. 2. There are 2 million Arab-Israelis (20%) living peacefully in Israel enjoying full rights and high living standards. Why can there not be any Jews living in Arab lands, even lands where Jews are "indigenous", such as Hebron?

No, I would bet that almost all Jews in Israel, left or right, religious or secular are Zionist. Check out Noa Tishby and her book Israel.

There was no subjugation. But, for the sake of argument, let's say there was. So then why do Palestinians living in Israel enjoy the highest living standards and the free-est lives of any other Arab nation? Why is there no significant "resistance" from these 2 million Palestinians?

Supposition? Without military strength to defend themselves, there would not be barely a single Jew alive in Palestine. This is not supposition, simply read the Hamas charter. Listen to the leaders of the Muslim world now and over the last 80 years. Look at what happened to other Jewish communities in the ME.

It is because of the unique circumstances of Israel and the Jewish people. There is only one Jewish state in the whole world. Without this unique state, there would be terrible suffering of Jewish people. Hence, anyone that opposes the existence of this state is in favour of causing suffering to Jewish people. To be clear, it is absolutely fine to criticize the politics of Israel.

It may not be based on "anti-jewish prejudice" (i.e. anti-Semitism) but it is anti-Semitic. ... Regarding the crusaders. Maybe. I assume that the Mamluks were anti-Christian.

Those are good points/questions that had me stumped for many years. Regarding the tradition of Jewish anti-zionism. Natasha Hausdorff made an excellent comparison in the Munk debate. Before having a child a couple can legitimately discuss the pros and cons of bring a new life into the world. This would be analogous to to the traditional anti-Zionists pre-1948. Once that child (the state of Israel) is born, there is no going back, you take care of her the best you can. Today's Jewish anti-Zionists are either: -virtue signaling to gain status -concerned only to make money off books and interviews -ignorant -something else?

More or less, Yes. Anti-zionism can be based on either ignorance or anti-jewish prejudice. But it is anti-Semitic either way.

Would you agree with wiki? Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of Israel as a Jewish state, in particular, a state with a Jewish demographic majority.[13][14][1][15][16] It has also been described as Israel's national or state ideology.[17]

1.From wiki: Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism)[a] is hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against, Jews. 2. Israel is not engaging in mass expulsion

Perhaps I am too optimistic, but if Palestinians can live peacefully with Jews inside Israel, surely it is possible for Palestinians to live peacefully along side Israel.

Not exactly. It is important to distinguish between the Palestinians of Gaza, The West Bank, and Israel (Israeli-Arabs). There is a lot to learn from the latter group: -Palestinians and Jews can and do live peacefully together -There are plenty of smart, successful Palestinian men and women

Exactly, that's war. So, do you agree that anti-zionism is also anti-Semitism?

I am all for rational though experiments, but is there such a thing as "peaceable expulsion"?

You have a strange sense of humour.

Yes, without the state of Israel, there would be mass killing and expulsions of Jews from the land of Israel.

Of course it follows. A cursory look at the history of Arab-Israeli conflicts, and the stated aims of groups like Hamas, proves that without an Israeli state there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews.

What do you mean?

https://munkdebates.com/debates/munk-debate-on-anti-zionism/ Zionism today is the support for continued existence of Israel. Anti-Zionists therefore support the dismantling of Israel. Without the state of Israel, there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews. Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism

The only difference? Really? I would argue that this is what happened already in Israel with 2,000,000 Arab-Israelis living peacefully. I've been asking myself: Why is it that, in the only Jewish country in the world, 2,000,000 Arabs (or Palestinians) live peacefully and prosperously (better than most Arabs in other countries), while there are almost no Jewish people able to live in Arab or Muslim countries?