carepov

Your facts are wrong. Regarding poverty and food: "Back in the early 1960s, when the American economist Mollie Orshansky defined the U.S. poverty level, she made a quick observation. Families spend about one third of household income on food. So, find out the cost of a cheap but adequately nutritious diet, triple it, and that’s the poverty line. That was meant to be just a quick and easy measure to use for a year or two while something more sensible was worked out. Sixty years later, we’re still using it – Milton Friedman did say there’s nothing so permanent as a temporary government program. Today American families spend a little under 10 percent of their income on food – and that includes eating out, something the poor of the 1960s didn’t do, and even the middle class did only very rarely." https://humanprogress.org/the-secret-recipe-for-civilization/?ref=topic&related=1827 Regarding housing, median square footage is way up: Regarding leisure time, see previous charts about hours worked. There are more charts about the decrease in housework, the increase of leisure time, the increase in travel. To be clear, I'm not saying that life is perfect today. There are certainly many challenges, however life is way better now than in your romanticized past.

https://humanprogress.org/trends/working-less-for-more/

Check this out from https://humanprogress.org/

I call BS on all of claiming that the median Canadian had a better/more comfortable life in the 50s/60s/70s/80s/90s... First, most importantly look at the poverty rate, especially child poverty, if I remember correctly it was 15 % and is well bellow 10% now. How many kids went hungry then compared to now? How many people ate out at restaurants back then. There are more f'n sushi joints now than there were total restaurants. How often did people travel on sunny vacations? Wanna talk housing, what was he square footage of an average house back then? How many bathrooms? And divide that by the number of people lining in each home? We used to spend 25-30 % of total income on food, it was as as low as 11% recently but is probably 15 % now. Look at the selection in the supermarket compared to back then! Take the median Canadian from the good ole days and zip them to the present and they would call us lazy whiney spoiled brats!

"Real" means that the dollars are adjusted for inflation.

It is a myth that the average person was better off in the past. Canadian Real GDP per capita chart tells a good story of wealth. We are at least 50% richer now compared to the 70's The other part of the story is how much cheaper most things are now (after adjusting for inflation). Check our the book Superabundance.

Successfully integrating immigrants is Canada's super-power. Many times in our history we have brought in more than 1% of our population (where we are now).

In 1966 we had 20 Million people. Canadians are way better off today, and our infrastructure in also way better.

Here is the chart from The Frasier Institute The long-term trend over the last 40 years is clear: Per Capita Real GDP is up from $40k to $60k a 50% increase.

We are a growing and successful nation thanks to mass immigration over the last 160 years. We have a huge country that requires very expensive infrastructure. The larger the population the cheaper/more efficient the infrastructure. Immigration helps to ensure that we have enough workers, for example in the fields of child care, health care and elderly care.

Please elaborate on how "Israel helped orchestrate Hamas takeover of Gaza" Also, your narrative regarding the the peace process is wrong, Israel did not "abandoned peace entirely" : 1995: Assassination of Rabin 2000: Camp David Summit - arguably the closest that the two sides ever came to establishing peace

Israel has free and fair elections. If peace was available from the Palestinians, Israeli's would vote for a pro-peace government, like they have tried many times over the last 80 years. Some of the most peace-loving Israelis were killed by Hamas on 10/7. Israel is a country that includes Jews and Arabs. A future Palestine should also include both Arabs and Jews, no? Or should a future Palestine be ethnically cleansed like other Arab states?

I think that you are irrationally pessimistic, the reality is that on average, people have better lives than ever. Of course there are problems that require solutions, as there always was, continued incremental improvement is the way to go. Recommended resources: https://stevenpinker.com/publications/enlightenment-now-case-reason-science-humanism-and-progress https://www.superabundance.com/

HDI data is a good metric to judge societies and their values. Also, by comparing HDIs of various countries in the Arab world one can quickly dismiss any claims that Israel is causing any material suffering. In fact it is the opposite, Israel's incredible economic development has been a huge benefit to all people of Palestine. You are right, it is not the whole story. Basic personal and civic freedoms are important too. Here again the scales favour Israel where women, gays and all minorities have equal rights. The oppressors of ordinary Gazans is Hamas.

You are right, for peace both sides need to make concessions and want peace. However, for war, it only takes one side to want it. If there was peace available from the Palestinians, the Israeli people would vote in a government that would make peace.

Wrong. Israel, unlike any of its neighbours, strives to exist for the benefit of all her citizens. The State of Israel will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice, and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed, or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education, and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. https://israeled.org/resources/documents/israel-declaration-independence/#:~:text=The State of Israel will,the full social and political

How about we rank the following countries/territories in terms of the values that are important to you. For example, where do Palestinian people enjoy the highest standard of living/freedom etc: Israel Egypt Jordan Sýria Lebanon Westbank Gaza Saudi Arabia UAE

At least now you are saying that there are differences between various terrorist groups that require different approaches. As I've said before, try listening to the actual words of the terrorist groups. You may be surprised. Gaza could have transformed itself into a nation state. Elections were held, billions of dollars were made available. I can guarantee that Israel would much prefer a Gazan/Palestinian nation state (like Jordan) than the status quo. If Gazans and west Bank Palestinians opted for peace, the Israeli Hawks would be voted out.

It would be great if Hamas disbanded like the IRA and ETA. The Islamic elements of Hamas make it very different though. Who's job is it to provide these things (courts, education, etc..)?

I like how you think in terms of Venn diagrams. There are Venn diagrams for different causes of terrorist groups and other diagrams for how to deal with them. Let's not forget religion. It is a major factor. Ideally yes, improve the lives of all people and then there would be no support for terrorist groups. Sadly, the world is not ideal and I am having a hard time coming up with examples of terrorists being eliminated this way. Perhaps the IRA? One could argue that this is partially how Israel dealt with the PLO as living standards in the occupied territories increased. How would you deal with Hamas? Isis was defeated by force and so were many other groups around the world. I noticed that you had no comments about the other terrorist groups that do not fit your simplistic single-venn-bubble model. (Eg Boko Haram) Don't forget the roll of Egypt in "imprisoning" Gaza. Regarding Israels manipulation and control of Gazans, this is very a very condescending attitude towards Gazans. Their leaders chose to source and fire rockets and plan end execute 10/7. Wouldn't you agree?

No, the topic was Arab-israelis. Compare them to how Jews are treated in Arab countries. On the basis that Israel is one one the most progressive societies in the world. One of the first to grant women full rights. Gay marriage, etc... On the basis that Arab Israelis have representation in the Knesset proportional to their population (how many countries can make that claim about minorities?) Arab Israelis are judges, doctors, entrepreneurs, soldiers, etc... For a real example of discrimination look up the status of Palestinians living in Lebanon.

You seem to have absolutely no understanding of terrorist groups. Again, listen to what they call for they are not a response to injustice they are calling for MORE injustice!! Do you realize that they would kill you mercilessly, assuming that you are non-muslim? You do not care about Hamas? That is a luxury that Israel does not have. Do you realize that a majority of people in Gaza and the Westbank support Hamas? Again, my argument is this. If you are calling for the elimination of Israel (not you but those that are anti-Zionists) then you are an antisemite. The same way as if you called for the dismantling of Ukraine you would be an anti Ukrainian bigot. If you support the existence of Israel, you are, by definition, a Zionist. This is black and white. You can be a Zionist but oppose settlements, borders, etc... I will look into your claim about the treatment of Jews by the Ottomans. Again, please stop being so condescending towards Palestinians and Arabs. They are not victims of Jewish manipulation, their leaders have far more control over their fate than you think. Listen to what they say and judge them by their actions.

Yes, it matters. There are two sides in this war and the values of each side absolutely matters. Many people cherry-pick the worst actions taken by Israel/IDF. Fine. They lied, they messed up, they destroyed homes, some extremists call for genocide, some people are racist. True and reprehensible. Then compare these faults to the worst parts of the other side (listed above). The other side is worse. Next, compare the best parts of Israeli society (also listed above) with it's neighbors. You can add impressive humanitarian aid, for example helping Syrian refugees and medical aid of people from "enemy" countries. Other than hummus and shawarmas, I cannot think of any positive parts of Arab society. Am I ignorant, yes. So please, anyone, enlighten me of some of the positive/altruistic aspects of neighboring Arab societies that reflect positive values.

I have not narrated my version of history. My original claim was that that Israeli settlements do not cause Palestinian violence and supported this claim by narrating acts of Palestinian violence that pre-dated settlements and of course post-dated the withdrawal of settlements. I never said that Jews/Israel are the pure white good guys, they have made a lot of f-ups, like every country. Regarding your comments on the Balfour Declaration and other history from the times (population/land percentages), yes it is important to know but not really applicable to todays situation. Remember: -In 1914 the population of Palestine (now Isreael+Gaza+Westbank) was 689,000, now it is 14,000,000 -You quote % land of Palestine, why not % land of all British Territory in the ME, how much is Arab and how much Jewish? -Who were the "indigenous people" or the "rightful owners" of the land at any point in history? There were people moving into this area from all around the world including Arabs from surrounding lands -The times were different. The injustices committed in Palestine were regrettable but pale to the injustices of the entire 20th century. Gaza is part of Palestine. 0.715 HDI on par with Jordan and Lebanon. You are wrong about terrorism. Why not try listening to what the terrorists actually say, read the Hamas Charter (supported by a majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, but not supported by Palestinian-Israelis), read Osama Bin Laden's manifesto. What current conditions cause: Al-Shabaab, ISIS, Boko Haram? Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights Of course here is racism and discrimination in Israel, Canada, US, Japan and everywhere else in the world. With such excellent representation in Political, Cultural and Economic life of Arab-Israelis, I would argue that there is less racism and discrimination in Israel that almost anywhere in the world. Certainly less than anywhere in the Middle East. I suspect that there are similar anecdotes of racism on Wiki pages from evry country of the world. If Palestinians stopped violence/terrorism there would be peace. If the UN partition Plan would have been accepted, there may have been peace. If Olso would have been accepted there may have been peace. Perhaps Israel's actions are hostile, but they are not to blame. Hamas and its supporters are against the existence of Israel, independent of what actions they take. You make some good points, and yes, I see your point about the hypocrisy of the right of return, and have more questions than answers. The Jewish people are the closest thing to living indigenous people of the land. Was their right to return de-colonizing? There was probably some portion of the 750,000 Arabs displaced in 1948 that should have had the right to return. Some may say no because it was the Arabs that started the war. How may Arabs were 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation? Does it matter? No one seriously thinks now that the 5,000,000 descendants all have the right to return. Until the war of 1948 there were no Arabs displaced by Jews. Jews immigrated and purchased land legally remember the population was a fraction of what it is today, there was plenty of land to share. There is no way to correct for all of history's injustice. There are now 14,000,000 people on this land and all deserve to live in peace. The first step is to stop the violence and the only people that can do that are the leaders of the Westbank and Gaza.

Do I understand you correctly, are you claiming that at one time in history there were Jews living under Arab/Muslim rule where there was "little or no beef with Jews"? OK good, you therefore support Zionism. For 76 years Israelis have been "investing in a pluralistic society that respects and helps to develop a quality legitimate Palestinian nation-state neighbor." There is no current legitimate Palestinian leadership.