Has the West Become So Feeble That We Are Afraid To Help the Libyans?

[jbg]

The atrocities in Libya continue, as Moamar Qadafi (sp) slaughters his own people (link):

TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi vowed to die in Libya as a martyr in an angry television address on Tuesday, as rebel troops said eastern regions had broken free from his rule in a burgeoning revolt.

"I am not going to leave this land, I will die here as a martyr," Gaddafi said on state television, refusing to bow to calls from his own diplomats, soldiers and protesters clamoring in the streets for an end to his four decades at the helm.

Meanwhile the civilized world does nothing. The same advocates of doing nothing wails outrage when the U.S. or Israel unfortunately kills a few civilians in the course of military operations. Every collateral hit by Israel in Cast Lead or by the U.S. in the Iraq or Afghanistan operations meets with cries of outrage.

Where a mass slaughter is really underway there is no similar outrage. About the most the world can (barely) manage is a U.N. Resolution or two. I couldn't say it better than Conrad Black. See below.

Has the West Become So Feeble That We Are Afraid To Help the Libyans?

By CONRAD BLACK, Special to the Sun | March 5, 2011 (link)

What is developing in Libya is a civil war in which, so far, the West has enjoyed the free lunch of cheering on the rebels, without having to do anything except extract their own nationals and send some humanitarian aid. Now that the rebels are being counter-attacked from the air by Gaddafi’s air force, and the rebels are asking for military assistance, there is arm-flapping, hand-wringing and general waffling in the chancelleries of the West as we quiver in fear of the rag-bag detritus of the mad Colonel’s decrepit military.

******************************

I cannot accept that the West has reached the point of enfeeblement that we sit like worried, helpless sheep while Iran arms itself with nuclear weapons, and are afraid to assist a clear majority in Libya get rid of a murderous fruitcake of a despot. At the time of Munich, Winston Churchill called for the return of “martial courage of olden time.”

[scouterjim]

The atrocities in Libya continue, as Moamar Qadafi (sp) slaughters his own people (link):

TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi vowed to die in Libya as a martyr in an angry television address on Tuesday, as rebel troops said eastern regions had broken free from his rule in a burgeoning revolt.

"I am not going to leave this land, I will die here as a martyr," Gaddafi said on state television, refusing to bow to calls from his own diplomats, soldiers and protesters clamoring in the streets for an end to his four decades at the helm.

Meanwhile the civilized world does nothing. The same advocates of doing nothing wails outrage when the U.S. or Israel unfortunately kills a few civilians in the course of military operations. Every collateral hit by Israel in Cast Lead or by the U.S. in the Iraq or Afghanistan operations meets with cries of outrage.

Where a mass slaughter is really underway there is no similar outrage. About the most the world can (barely) manage is a U.N. Resolution or two. I couldn't say it better than Conrad Black. See below.

Has the West Become So Feeble That We Are Afraid To Help the Libyans?

By CONRAD BLACK, Special to the Sun | March 5, 2011 (link)

What is developing in Libya is a civil war in which, so far, the West has enjoyed the free lunch of cheering on the rebels, without having to do anything except extract their own nationals and send some humanitarian aid. Now that the rebels are being counter-attacked from the air by Gaddafi’s air force, and the rebels are asking for military assistance, there is arm-flapping, hand-wringing and general waffling in the chancelleries of the West as we quiver in fear of the rag-bag detritus of the mad Colonel’s decrepit military.

******************************

I cannot accept that the West has reached the point of enfeeblement that we sit like worried, helpless sheep while Iran arms itself with nuclear weapons, and are afraid to assist a clear majority in Libya get rid of a murderous fruitcake of a despot. At the time of Munich, Winston Churchill called for the return of “martial courage of olden time.”

The last thing the west needs right now is to get embroiled in a dispute in yet another Muslim country.

[nicky10013]

I wonder how badly western involvement would undermine the revolution, though. I mean, a no-fly zone seems like a no-brainer but in that part of the world there is an awful lot of Anti-Westerners who know a thing or two about propaganda. American involvement destroyed the democratic element of the Iranian revolution.

[scouterjim]

I wonder how badly western involvement would undermine the revolution, though. I mean, a no-fly zone seems like a no-brainer but in that part of the world there is an awful lot of Anti-Westerners who know a thing or two about propaganda. American involvement destroyed the democratic element of the Iranian revolution.

Very true, and it wouldn't do much good in Libya.

[GostHacked]

I wonder how badly western involvement would undermine the revolution, though. I mean, a no-fly zone seems like a no-brainer but in that part of the world there is an awful lot of Anti-Westerners who know a thing or two about propaganda. American involvement destroyed the democratic element of the Iranian revolution.

Iraq 2.0

[bush_cheney2004]

I wonder how badly western involvement would undermine the revolution, though. I mean, a no-fly zone seems like a no-brainer but in that part of the world there is an awful lot of Anti-Westerners who know a thing or two about propaganda. American involvement destroyed the democratic element of the Iranian revolution.

Okay...have to leave the Americans and Brits out of this one. Show us how it is done, Canada.

[Sir Bandelot]

Perhaps certain western leaders are feeling a little guilty of having sold Mr. Gaddfly the latest and greatest innovations in modern weaponry, many of which are specifically designed to control uprisings amongst your own people. Some members of the UN (specifically, the US and Britain) kissed his sand-covered ass in about 2005 which opened the doors to some sweet oil deals for BP, because he claimed to have decided to stop funding terrorism. Oh, well in that case it's all good then, here's your bad guy back again, the same guy who killed hundreds of people in the lockerbie bombing (returned to Lybia to be greeted with a heroes welcome) and we all really like you, now. Help the Libyans, sir? Why no, we need to help ourselves.

Britain selling arms to Libya

In the third quarter of 2010 (the most recent period for which figures are available), equipment approved for export included wall and door breaching projectile launchers, crowd control ammunition, small arms ammunition, tear gas/irritant ammunition, training tear gas/irritant ammunition. Ammunition comprised £3.2m of the £4.7m million of military items licensed.

Sniper rifles were among the other equipment licensed in 2010. No requests for licences were refused in 2010.

[bush_cheney2004]

Perhaps certain western leaders are feeling a little guilty of having sold Mr. Gaddfly the latest and greatest innovations in modern weaponry, many of which are specifically designed to control uprisings amongst your own people. Some members of the UN (specifically, the US and Britain) kissed his sand-covered ass in about 2005 which opened the doors to some sweet oil deals for BP, because he claimed to have decided to stop funding terrorism....

Yea..that would specifically explain all those Canadian oil services contractors in Libya....same as those in Iraq.

[jbg]

American involvement destroyed the democratic element of the Iranian revolution.

What American involvement in the 1978 Revolution? You mean where Jimmy Carter abdicated any role? And what "democratic element"? You're living in a fantasy world.

[DogOnPorch]

Perhaps certain western leaders are feeling a little guilty of having sold Mr. Gaddfly the latest and greatest innovations in modern weaponry, many of which are specifically designed to control uprisings amongst your own people. Some members of the UN (specifically, the US and Britain) kissed his sand-covered ass in about 2005 which opened the doors to some sweet oil deals for BP, because he claimed to have decided to stop funding terrorism. Oh, well in that case it's all good then, here's your bad guy back again, the same guy who killed hundreds of people in the lockerbie bombing (returned to Lybia to be greeted with a heroes welcome) and we all really like you, now. Help the Libyans, sir? Why no, we need to help ourselves.

Britain selling arms to Libya

In the third quarter of 2010 (the most recent period for which figures are available), equipment approved for export included wall and door breaching projectile launchers, crowd control ammunition, small arms ammunition, tear gas/irritant ammunition, training tear gas/irritant ammunition. Ammunition comprised £3.2m of the £4.7m million of military items licensed.

Sniper rifles were among the other equipment licensed in 2010. No requests for licences were refused in 2010.

The overwhelming percentage of Libyan weapons are of Russian make/design.

[blueblood]

How about the west is too broke!

Imposing a no fly zone implies neutralizing air defenses and possibly planes on the ground which would be an act of war, plus cost a pile of money.

Not only that the west wants to have a more positive branding situation than iraq, branding which involves china and russia. Considering that they suck at human rights like libya, it would be hypocritical of them to go with a un resolution.

Mostly the issue is money in the kitty, which there isn't enough.

[waldo]

American involvement destroyed the democratic element of the Iranian revolution.

What American involvement in the 1978 Revolution? You mean where Jimmy Carter abdicated any role? And what "democratic element"? You're living in a fantasy world.

see 'White Revolution' paves way for 'Islamic Revolution', hey?

any actions taken by Mosaddeq, right or wrong (from what ever perspective) must be considered responsive to his discovering a coup was being hatched to overthrow his government.

I guess you are unfamiliar with the timeline. There was no coup in the summer of 52 When Mossy took control of the army.

as I've said a few times now, those Mosaddeq actions you so decry as "undemocratic", were responsive to a gained knowledge of the formative coup... in fact... if you actually read the declassified CIA document you will understand the complete circumstances of the initial failed coup attempt and the multitude of steps taken to simply get the Shah engaged as a reluctant participant. This was a covert coup that was not... completely covert.

leftist? Really, why go there... that subsequent rise in the standard of living you speak of was paralleled with the ever increasing Iranian peoples resistance towards the Shah's brutal and corrupt government, culminating in the 79 revolution and the creation of the Islamic republic of Iran. Apparently, your "right thing at the right time" hasn't quite worked out - has it?

No. Please try again.

oh really... many connect those dots that put the Shah in power to, ultimately, the 79 Iranian Revolution that helped to spawn the rise of the theocratic Iranian government and the foundations of Islamic fundamentalist political movements. CIA meddling in the affairs of a democratically elected government... gets results!

[GostHacked]

The west needs to stay the f*ck out of this. But that is not going to happen, we've already seen British SAS Special Forces captured in Libya, and the US special forces are either already in Libya or getting ready for operations within Libya.

I told you all, it was not a matter of IF, but when Libya gets invaded. It will happen. Now all we need to do is have some terror attack to losely connect Libya to for the purpose of a full scale invasion.

[bloodyminded]

Meanwhile the civilized world does nothing. The same advocates of doing nothing wails outrage when the U.S. or Israel unfortunately kills a few civilians in the course of military operations. Every collateral hit by Israel in Cast Lead or by the U.S. in the Iraq or Afghanistan operations meets with cries of outrage.

Where a mass slaughter is really underway there is no similar outrage.

What are you talking about? For once, virtually everybody is in agreed outrage.

When's the last time the UN intervened militarily against an Israeli or American regime?

what's with the misapplied victim complex? Well, at least with Israel, I can understand the logic...but the United States? forever being victimized by the mean old critics of its actions? ( :) )

[bloodyminded]

Perhaps certain western leaders are feeling a little guilty of having sold Mr. Gaddfly the latest and greatest innovations in modern weaponry, many of which are specifically designed to control uprisings amongst your own people.

You know, I somehow doubt it.

[Muddy]

Where is the Arab League and the African League in all this? Surely they could implement a no fly zone over Libya! No ! Probably not.

[Topaz]

Both, Canada and the U.S. know they can't afford to get into another war. The US, alone is spending a billion a day, (?) at least, that what I heard on the news and Canada can't afford it either. There the most important part, the lives that are lost, US has lost enough since 9/11. The only part of this I wonder about is, if the rebels fighting in Libya take over the coutnry, will the world find another ruler just as bad or worse than the one they have now??

[wyly]

Where is the Arab League and the African League in all this? Surely they could implement a no fly zone over Libya! No ! Probably not.

the Libyan military loyal to Ghadaffi can't control under armed and poorly organized civilians, Egypt if it was inclined to do so could roll over Libya and end the conflict quite easily...only a little push would be enough to topple this regime...

[wyly]

Both, Canada and the U.S. know they can't afford to get into another war. The US, alone is spending a billion a day, (?) at least, that what I heard on the news and Canada can't afford it either. There the most important part, the lives that are lost, US has lost enough since 9/11. The only part of this I wonder about is, if the rebels fighting in Libya take over the coutnry, will the world find another ruler just as bad or worse than the one they have now??

how can a new regime be worse than one that blew a civilian airliner out of the sky?...any time the "people" make a choice to remove a government it's their choice and the right choice for them regardless if we like it or not...

[Muddy]

the Libyan military loyal to Ghadaffi can't control under armed and poorly organized civilians, Egypt if it was inclined to do so could roll over Libya and end the conflict quite easily...only a little push would be enough to topple this regime...

My point is, that let the Arabs and or the Africans take care of their little parcel of the world and leave us out of their squabbels. We will be hated here in the west no matter our intentions if we interfere.

[bud]

Meanwhile the civilized world does nothing. The same advocates of doing nothing wails outrage when the U.S. or Israel unfortunately kills a few civilians in the course of military operations.

you're confused.

no one is saying that we should attack israel in order to stop them from slaughtering palestinians. the world is saying that the western governments shouldn't support a state that continuously violates international human rights laws such as israel. no western government is supporting the ghaddafi regime.

Edited March 7, 2011 by bud

[bush_cheney2004]

you're confused.

no one is saying that we should attack israel in order to stop them from slaughtering palestinians. the world is saying that the western governments shouldn't support a state that continuously violates international human rights laws such as israel. no western government is supporting the ghaddafi regime.

Nonsense...Italy most certainly has "supported" the regime.

[wyly]

My point is, that let the Arabs and or the Africans take care of their little parcel of the world and leave us out of their squabbels. We will be hated here in the west no matter our intentions if we interfere.

ya it's a no win situation, the oppressed will be thinking it's about time the west stood behind it's talk of democracy and freedom but such action sets a precedent the autocratic regimes like that in Saudi Arabia won't like it at all...it would be better for everyone if neighbouring countries helped out but they're in the same position as well...

so it comes down to who you rather have hate us, new emerging democratic states or authoritarian regimes...

Edited March 7, 2011 by wyly

[bloodyminded]

Anyway, it's not as if the West has ever dome anything to arouse hatred. It's just that most of the world is insane and ungrateful. Truly, we're too good for this fallen world.

[bud]

Nonsense...Italy most certainly has "supported" the regime.

most likely to do with the 80% of their oil and the big investments they've made in libya.

my point still stands. most western governments support israel, but the west does not support (with the exception of italy) ghaddafi. this enables israel to continue violating international law.