Recession

[eyeball]

Exactly, while someone else looked after the serious stuff.

I was a little kid at the time. Don't hold me responsible for the adults who were seriously screwing stuff up.

[Wilber]

I was a little kid at the time. Don't hold me responsible for the adults who were seriously screwing stuff up.

Yes, in training so that you could be critical of being free to shoot your mouth off on forums like this, be the first generation of Canadians that hasn't had to go to war and enjoy the highest standard of living in the history of mankind, all of which you have merely because you believe you are entitled to it.

What makes you think that your screw ups will somehow be superior?

[Oleg Bach]

Yes, in training so that you could be critical of being free to shoot your mouth off on forums like this, be the first generation of Canadians that hasn't had to go to war and enjoy the highest standard of living in the history of mankind, all of which you have merely because you believe you are entitled to it.

What makes you think that your screw ups will somehow be superior?

Screw ups? Damn right - look at Richard Cheney marching off to war with out the budget to do it right - then coming begging for more cash and a few thousand dead soldiers later. Now that is a screw up by someone who believed themselves to be superiour. Also firing all the generals that were spawned of the blue collar class that is held in loathing and contempt by oil merchants such as Cheney is a grave error based in ego - imagine this board room troll actually thinking he was an expert warrior. Guess he believed he was "entitled" - that being born rich and arrogant and CHEAP...gave him licience to privateer. Guys like Cheney should cash in their Haliburton shares and contribute it to the war effort - seeing he believes in it so much.

That is not about to happen though seeing that he is an elitist that believes he is entitled to get something for nothing - cheap cheap cheap - and now the Bushites expect to burden the tax payer again with their failed waring buisness venture - what a bunch of rich losers who were trained from childhood in one principle "Never give anything to anyone ever - always take" - looks like that motto has it's limitations..as does the war chest..that does not even belong to them - and the above writer who states "highest standard of living in history" - CANADA eh? It's an illusion - when a worker can not lay down and rest when he wants - all the money in the world does not make him propserous - we have the highest level of quality slavery in the world and that is it.

[jbg]

Keating Five = 1980's Savings and Loan collapse and Congressional scandal.

Thanks. I forgot.

[jbg]

Don't forget Canada once had the 4th largest army in the world and was well on the way to becoming an areospace power. Our country however caved under US pressure to step aside and leave the projection of North America's military power up to you folks.

If you're referring to the Avro, the problem, if I recall correctly, was that the US wouldn't guarantee itself as a purchaser. Without the US there was zero market for the Avro.

You wanted the job, you got it and its a little late to be crying about spilt milk now. I'm all for promoting Canada's security and I think we've had a lot more success in acheiving that by projecting a non-threatening friendy face to the world. You don't see many Canadian flags being burned around the world.

You dont see many Canadians flying their own flags either. For contrasts go to either this link or this other one.

It occurs to me to consider in retrospect how fortunate we've been that Diefenbaker and his Tories decided to strangle Canada's military industrial complex in its crib when it did. This left the door open for our government to invest its resources in making Canada a better place to live. You might also notice we aren't saddled with the kind of national debt that leads to a depression. I don't wish that kind of suffering on anyone either, with the exception of your military industrial complex.

The US is hardly in a "depression". Trudeau used to complain that "when America catches cold Canada gets pneumonia"or words to that effect.

[bush_cheney2004]

If you're referring to the Avro, the problem, if I recall correctly, was that the US wouldn't guarantee itself as a purchaser. Without the US there was zero market for the Avro.

Hell, without the US there would have been no wind tunnel testing, radar, B-47 test platform, missile, or fire control system. Go Avro!

[jbg]

Hell, without the US there would have been no wind tunnel testing, radar, B-47 test platform, missile, or fire control system. Go Avro!

Not sure I follow you.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not sure I follow you.

Absent from the woeful mourning that has gone on now for nearly 50 years is the role that the USA played in the Avro Arrow's developemnt. Far from nixing the program, the Americans actually provided technical support, facilities, and weapons system kit. Many features were incorporated into later aircraft, but as designed the Arrow was obsolete before ever going into production.

But if it serves as the lasting icon to the great aviation power that Canada could have been, then I guess it was worth it.

You know, like Tupac Shakur CD's....worth far more now that he is dead.

[Wilber]

Absent from the woeful mourning that has gone on now for nearly 50 years is the role that the USA played in the Avro Arrow's developemnt. Far from nixing the program, the Americans actually provided technical support, facilities, and weapons system kit. Many features were incorporated into later aircraft, but as designed the Arrow was obsolete before ever going into production.

But if it serves as the lasting icon to the great aviation power that Canada could have been, then I guess it was worth it.

You know, like Tupac Shakur CD's....worth far more now that he is dead.

Avro Canada was quite an innovative company in those days. The Arrow was not their only leading edge project.

Jetliner

AVROCAR

The CF-100 was also one of the best of its type albeit another bomber interceptor.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Wilber

[bush_cheney2004]

Avro Canada was quite an innovative company in those days. The Arrow was not their only leading edge project.

The CF-100 was also one of the best of its type albeit another bomber interceptor.

No doubt....I am still trying to fine old "Great Planes" VHS tapes for Avro designs. But when Diefenbaker cut those prototypes up, it was like he created a supersonic martyr. Many of the Canadian engineers accepted their fate, and helped to send men to the Moon instead.

Edited January 8, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Pat Coghlan]

I compare a recession to a man milking a bunch of cows (people) - at first he keeps the milking minimal and manageble so that the poor cows can replenish their milk supply - with greed - you milk the cow untill it's knees wabble - and the thing falls over in weakness - then you have to force a recession before someone finds out that you sickened the cow. There are limits in slavery - you can not work them to death and tell them "Be happy - all are employed" - sometime employment becomes abuse and stresses the nation - because..........their money becomes devalued and the kids go astray because the parents are on the tread mill - I hope we have not a recession but a severe depression that will allow society to re-adjust and regain good values again. Let the whole thing collapse and let the new fuedal lords go broke.

I would agree that there is too much wealth concentration happening. When I see things like John Roth walking away from Nortel with $100M and the CEO of Exxon pulling in $650M 2 years ago, I see a problem.

Below is one of the best descriptions I've seen over the years about what is going on. It was posted by Mike O'Brien in the late 90's:

All is fair in love and war.... we are at war! Maybe you should consider

the reason why these people are forced to take such measures: there is an

all out assault being conducted by Liberals/Liberals voters against the

upper middle class. If they didn't defend themselves these people would

likely fork over around $50K a year. It is thier money! Other people have

ganged up and passed laws oppresive to the minority of tax payers! You

assume that because our current tax system is law, that it is right.

Unfortunately the upper middle are too civilized (inert??) to really make

the point. Would the point be clearer if the upper middle class blocked the

roads to parlaimnent with logs and dirt and guns? Despite the fact that

almost everyone in this group feels oppressed, to point of fleeing thier

homeland by the thousands and the fact that they are spending fortunes on

accountants and lawyers and complaining bitterly seems to be of no avail in

getting the point accross that this prosperity taxation is unjust and very

unfair.

In almost every other case where a policy more severly affects one

particular minority group the cries of injustice and oppression are

deafening. What if this group of people didn't share the common trait of

prosperity, but something else... like skin colour, hieght, weigth,

language, disability, gender, age, etc. Would a law that singles out this

group of people be OK just because the majority felt so... or would the

cries of oppresion of the minority hold some weight? If yes, why is it OK

to single out people who make X $ and enact legislation that only affects

them?

As far as the purchases, most of these people wouldn't even make those

purchases if not for the tax system. If they don't spend the money, they

will loose half of it. Our system is designed to prevent people from

accumulating wealth. People end up spending money on consumer goods (not

investments) that they may not really want or need, because it is better

than forking that cash over to the same force that oppresses them. In this

way, our ecomony is artificially stimulated for the sake of jobs. This is

one of the reasons why these loop holes exist.... the goverment essentially

say to people "save for the future and we will punish you, spend now on

some useless item and you can keep that item tax free." --- "Work & Spend,

good; Save & invest, bad.

The dramatic irony is that those in favour of our tax system often claim

that it is good because if it wasn't this way we would have a permanent

underclass. The reality is that this system, while discouraging it through

lack of incentive, does allow people to rise from the lower classes up to

the middle class. Unfortunately the excessive taxes on accumulation of

wealth against the upper middle class makes that barrier nearly impossible

to break. So instead a "permanent class line" is entrenched by law. Guess

who supports these laws? You guessed it, the lower class and the extreme

upper class who have already surpased this boundary line. The upper class

have convinced the lower class to go after the upper middle class. In the

end, it only serves to solidify the position of the upper class as

untouchable.

Of course this doesn't even get into the real heart of the issue: that

close to half of each tax dollar goes in interest on the debt. This is what

people paying big taxes are truly most upset about. This is an obvious

manifestation of exactly what I am talking about.... the upper class, via

their political parties (Tory and Liberal, which ever is in power at time)

have managed to convince the lower 50% of the population that it is OK to

borrow money to give those same 50% a better life. In the end, it is the

upper middle class who bear the brunt of the debt. By directly taking cash

rom the upper middle class and giving it to the upper class, the upper

class get that much richer and that many more upper middle class are

prevented from rising into a position of wealth and power.

Instead of creating a country where everyone has the opportunity to rise to

the top, we have created a country where a handful of very rich individuals

and families are ensured their power grip. A curious problem with this is

that most of these people/families were quite rich along time ago, so they

have not accumulated wealth by savy in the modren world; they are carry

overs from a time long gone. Does it seem any wonder that we have no Bill

Gates sort of characters in Canada? Of course not, anyone who might become

rich in modern times is stopped. Instead, our captains of industry are

pro-government croonies still stuck in the old ecomony. Again... is it any

wonder that we are being taken over by American business? Look around

you... McDonalds, Burger King, Wall Mart, AT&T, Sprint, Microsoft, etc.,

etc., etc. Those with money in our country simly lack the foresight to

create business in 1998. Those with forsight are stopped from making money.

A message to all in the lower classes: this tax system is NOT about helping

you... It is totally about the rich! Don't fall for the Ministry Of Truth's

(Ooops, I mean the CBC) propoganda. As Derek so accuractly calls them,

these people are "poverty pimps".

> Then WHY the hell DO YOU NOT CONTACT REVENUE CANADA AND spell out the

> details of these suspected tax evaders? I sure as hell would. The more

tax

> evasion reported, the better for the rest of us.

You are attacking the wrong enemy. Our country is under seige by bankers

and other big money lenders.... most of whom are liberal supporters

personally and who's corporations give millions to the liberal party. The

people who you want to blow the wistle on are your neighbours trying to

defend themselves against this oppresion. For Gods sake man, help your

neigbour, not the *&^%$#@ bankers who are enslaving us all!!!!!!

Imagine yourself as that person... maybe you came from a modest background

and worked yourself through school doing hard labour. In your professional

career you have spent a decade working late nights learning new technology

and job techniques. You often work more than 70 hours a week in the name of

producing a product that will bring millions of dollars into the Canadian

economy from abroad. To get here you assumed personal risk by taking years

out of the workforce, accruing student debts, which you so diligently paid

off. The tax sheet say that you will pay $50-$60K in taxes unless you do

something. So you come up with some extra purchases and get your tax *down*

(sic) to $40K. Then your neighbour who isn't even looking for work calls

you an ingrate and a cheat and blows the wistle on you. Or the tax man

calls you up and says "we got your payment of $35K, but you still owe us

$5K - WHEN WILL IT BE IN.... IF YOU DON"T PAY SOON WE WILL ACT AGAINST YOU

BY SIEZING YOUR BANK ACCOUNT AND HOUSE". Do you feel appeciated for your

$40K contribution making other people's lives easier? Do you feel like all

those thousands of extra hours you have worked over the years are worth it?

Do you feel oppresed?

Many thousands of Canadians have fled or in the process of fleeing the

country leaving behind about 40% of thier assets. Is this OK to you? Does

it smell like a problem? These are doctors, scientists, engineers, business

leaders. They are being replaced by (no offense to them) immigrants with

considerably lesser skills to create wealth and show leadership in our

economy and society. But they mostly vote liberal... and those that are

leaving clearly do not vote liberal. What is happening? The Canadian

demographics are changing before our eyes. We are becoming (on average)

poorer and more liberal. I predict we are soon to see those new jobs the

liberals promised: they will be large American companies setting up labour

shops paying cheap Canadian dollars for low skilled Canadian labour, just

like in Brandon, Manitoba. The real big business will be going on in the

US. Do the liberals not care about Canada's demise? Not really... because

even as a second world country, at least it will be their country. Besides,

even the finace minister shelters his cash offshore. If I was planning a

devaluation of my own countries money, I'd get my money out too!

My advice is to start showing a bit of appreciation and respect for the

people of this country who are working damn hard trying to get ahead. It is

attitudes like yours... believing the crap the CBC throws at us... that is

driving the prosperous out of this country. Would you rather let them keep

alittle bit more of their money.... or loose them and all thier tax and

business they create completely? Think about and get back to us.

[Topaz]

Just found this website www.shadowstats.com it says the US deficit is 4.1 Trillion and its bankrupt. Bad news for all of us.

[Pat Coghlan]

Just found this website www.shadowstats.com it says the US deficit is 4.1 Trillion and its bankrupt. Bad news for all of us.

They'll just print more money, so they can't really go bankrupt.

That said, their currency could become greatly devalued...which is sort of what is happening now with $900 gold and $100 oil prices.

[M.Dancer]

Just found this website www.shadowstats.com it says the US deficit is 4.1 Trillion and its bankrupt. Bad news for all of us.

You really should think twice before you post....

JOHN WILLIAMS' SHADOW GOVERNMENT STATISTICS

A L E R T

December 16, 2006

__________

2006 GAAP-Based Federal Deficit Jumps to $4.6 Trillion

Total Federal Obligations at $54.6 Trillion

Energy Pricing Gimmicks Distort CPI and Trade Deficit

First but not lastly this news flash is over two years old. The defict is in fact higher and the US is no where near bankruptcy.

[jbg]

First but not lastly this news flash is over two years old. The defict is in fact higher and the US is no where near bankruptcy.

If the US is bankrupt can I get to handle the filing?

[jdobbin]

It looks like we are in a bit of a tailspin today in the markets as the fear of a recession start to really take hold.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

The Toronto stock market lost almost five per cent of its value in trading Monday, following the downward lead of Asian and European markets.

Just before noon ET, the S&P/TSX composite index was down 602.56 points to 12,134.56 -- following last week's losses of 6.6 per cent.

Those losses last week wiped out the TSX's entire gains for 2007.

"It's pretty ugly out there. What we're seeing is almost indiscriminate selling of stocks," Patti Croft, vice-president of Philips, Hager and North Investment Management Ltd., told CTV Newsnet.

Today's losses are spread across the TSX's sectors, BNN's Michael Kane told Newsnet.

"Just about everywhere you look in this market, everything is down," he said.

Oil and gold futures are both down, which hurts Canadian resource stocks, he said.

The Canadian dollar fell Monday, losing 0.45 cents to 96.88 cents US.

In other economic news, Statistics Canada reported that rising auto sales helped drive a 0.3 per cent gain in wholesale sales in November. Otherwise, sales would have fallen 0.6 per cent.

The Bank of Canada is expected to cut its key rate by a quarter point on Tuesday, reducing it to four per cent. The move is designed to help protect Canada's economy from its slowing U.S. counterpart.

[stignasty]

It will be interesting to see how the American markets open after their holiday today.

[Visionseeker]

One trillion dollars went up in smoke today ($90 BILLION in Canada alone) while the DOW was closed. While some moves have inevitably been made to prevent a collapse in New York tomorrow, these will only temporarily staunch the flow. We are headed for a global financial catastrophe of unprecedented proportions!

China is in a full panic. Orders are down by 40% over last year, almost overnight. Devaluing their currency to keep a competitive edge brought them high inflation. Now that nobody is buying, they have serious stag - and eventually hyper-inflation looming.

In the US, it is fast becoming apparent that there no longer is a “middle class”, but rather some “haves” and many “have-nots”.

If you’re over 50 and hoping to retire on your pension and investments in the next 5 – 10 years, think again. Your portfolio is going to shave a minimum of 15-20% by the end of the quarter.

This is not simply a recession. We are in the earliest stages of a HUGE depression. I saw it coming and let a good chunk go fallow last spring. And I won’t be buying into the market for the foreseeable future.

Edited January 22, 2008 by Visionseeker

[jdobbin]

This is not simply a recession. We are in the earliest stages of a HUGE depression. I saw it coming and let a good chunk go fallow last spring. And I won’t be buying into the market for the foreseeable future.

Certainly there is huge skepticism for the aid package that the U.S. fashioned.

In Canada, we are still seeing growth in the west because of oil demand. I think that will last for a bit but Ontario and Quebec are in for a tough year.

The room in the upcoming Canadian budget for a stimulus package is probably limited by reduced revenue from the tax cuts. It is easy to see why there is some debate about bringing down the government in February. In a few more months, the Tories could be under severe pressure because of the economy. Still, it would be hard to continue to letting confidence motions pass by indefinitely.

[bush_cheney2004]

....This is not simply a recession. We are in the earliest stages of a HUGE depression. I saw it coming and let a good chunk go fallow last spring. And I won’t be buying into the market for the foreseeable future.

Let those who see panic run as headless chickens do...let others see opportunity. There is no recession as of yet...and certainly not a "depression". I will buy from your weak hands.

Edited January 22, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Visionseeker]

Let those who see panic run as headless chickens do...let others see opportunity. There is no recession as of yet...and certainly not a "depression". I will buy from your weak hands.

I sold months ago, so you won't buy anything from me.

I await bottom (or near to it) before buying. But bottom is a ways off I'm afraid because most haven't realized (or are denying that) a recession is already here. That's why a big D will spill into a big R.

[bush_cheney2004]

I await bottom (or near to it) before buying. But bottom is a ways off I'm afraid because most haven't realized (or are denying that) a recession is already here. That's why a big D will spill into a big R.

Not following this at all...a big D will spill into a big R? Depression before Recession? No matter, equity markets will still average about 8% gain over the long haul.

[White Doors]

Let those who see panic run as headless chickens do...let others see opportunity. There is no recession as of yet...and certainly not a "depression". I will buy from your weak hands.

me too! In fact, I already did!

thank you!

[Visionseeker]

Not following this at all...a big D will spill into a big R? Depression before Recession? No matter, equity markets will still average about 8% gain over the long haul.

Seems I got my mords wixed. The R was meant to go before D. I blame the 20 hour day I had.

I simply cannot share your optimism. There are a number of indicators that suggest to me that equities will drive downward well into 2009. My concerns have largely held true since last spring and today's 3/4 point cut by the Fed is quite telling IMO.

[White Doors]

Seems I got my mords wixed. The R was meant to go before D. I blame the 20 hour day I had.

I simply cannot share your optimism. There are a number of indicators that suggest to me that equities will drive downward well into 2009. My concerns have largely held true since last spring and today's 3/4 point cut by the Fed is quite telling IMO.

Those calling for disaster in the economy, if they say it long enough, are eventually proven right.

Doesn't mean you have a swami like insight into anything. It is also certainly not wise to not be a player in the market. If you invest for long term, there are good buys to be had in a bear market.

Why? Because of people like you who proclaim that the sky is falling and people like me who are anxious to pick up the pieces from panic selling.

so again, thank you.