Fear and Profit

[BC_chick]

I have read virtually every opinion amongst the spectrum of opinions as to why the situation in the Middle-East is what at the present moment (not to be confused with its historical causes of course). From the one extreme proposal that evil that lurks amongst anyone who believes in the faith of Islam to the flip-side argument that Jews are inherently deceptive and are pulling the wool over the eyes of the world with their self-serving version of events through control of the mass media. I have seen and read them all.

No opinion has given me the moment of "epiphany" when all of a sudden it all makes sense. All seem to have some sort of illogical flaw in them, perhaps because most are based on a premise which pits the divisions strictly along racial or religious lines and IMO such black and white notions of the world are against the rules of human nature.

Today, I read an article in the Georgia Straight (Vancouver's local alternative weekly) which was my moment of epiphany about the reality of present-day Israel in the ME conflict.

For anyone who is interested:

Here's the link.

The "what" of the conflict has been well documented... but, this article puts forth a fantastic "why" which is, IMO, the most compelling reconciliation of logic and human nature when it comes to this debate.

[jbg]

BC, I don't agree with that article. I will agree that Israelis and Jews, of necessity, are opportunists, and will find ways to use whatever exists to survive and thrive. They didn't create the Muslim threat to the West, but they don't mind making a buck, or shekel, here and there either.

[sharkman]

Oh good grief. The Georgia Straight is many things, but to call it Vancouver's alternative weekly does great disservice to the newspapers in town. It's not a newspaper by any stretch of definition. The opinion pieces therein are just that, and of the far left variety.

[gc1765]

Oh good grief. The Georgia Straight is many things, but to call it Vancouver's alternative weekly does great disservice to the newspapers in town. It's not a newspaper by any stretch of definition. The opinion pieces therein are just that, and of the far left variety.

What exactly do you take issue with, the "weekly" part or the "alternative" part??

[BC_chick]

BC, I don't agree with that article. I will agree that Israelis and Jews, of necessity, are opportunists, and will find ways to use whatever exists to survive and thrive. They didn't create the Muslim threat to the West, but they don't mind making a buck, or shekel, here and there either.

Neither I nor that article implied that Israelis created a threat. In fact, I specifically stated in my first sentence that I am speaking of the current situation in the ME conflict and not its historical roots. And truthfully, your words about Israelis and Jews are a lot harsher than anything in that article with which I agreed.

My only point was that the usual arguments which blame the crisis along religious lines did not resonate with me because I think it's against human nature to categorise the members of any group as purely good or purely evil. Especially in a conflict that deep.

That's exactly why I called this article an epiphany - because it it's much more plausible for me to believe that a group of people (of whatever religion) are profiteering from instability in the world, and thereby may not be too motivated to find peace, than it is to believe one side an argument is 100% guilty or innocent.

IOW - hindering peace and creating chaos are two different things.

Take the Gaza situation for example - Israel isn't causing the mayhem, but it is surely benefiting from its continuance.

[Argus]

Take the Gaza situation for example - Israel isn't causing the mayhem, but it is surely benefiting from its continuance.

Perhaps, but so what? When two of your sworn enemies are fighting each other is it your responsibility to try and persuade them to make peace so they can get back to attacking you?

[jbg]

And truthfully, your words about Israelis and Jews are a lot harsher than anything in that article with which I agreed.

I call things as I see them. I am no ideologue.

[Alexandra]

The "what" of the conflict has been well documented... but, this article puts forth a fantastic "why" which is, IMO, the most compelling reconciliation of logic and human nature when it comes to this debate.

Naomi Klein is the reason for an epiphany? Naomi appears to be expressing her fears of the technology age only, in this opinion piece, which Israel and it's tech industry are benefiting from as is the province of B.C.

Since Israel began its policy of sealing off the occupied territories with checkpoints and walls, human-rights activists have often compared Gaza and the West Bank to open-air prisons. But in researching the explosion of Israel's homeland security sector, a topic I explore in greater detail in a forthcoming book (The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism), it strikes me that they are something else, too: laboratories where the terrifying tools of our security states are being field-tested. ... (run Naomi, there's a drone overhead spying on the contents of your purse ....) Palestinians–whether living in the West Bank or what the Israeli politicians are already calling "Hamasistan"–are no longer just targets. They are guinea pigs.

Naomi must be suffering from a slight case of paranoia if she thinks it is just the jews in Israel who are inventing and testing 'homeland security' devices. She obviously didn't notice all of those cameras and obstacles outside Harrods' on her last shopping trip to London.

It is pretty revealing Naomi's book sales haven't been doing very well if she would stoop to publishing an article in this old hippie rag, the Georgia Straight, to promote her 'forthcoming book' on Israel's death dealing tech industry. She could be considered an alternative progressively socialist Straight, I suppose.

`

[BC_chick]

Naomi must be suffering from a slight case of paranoia if she thinks it is just the jews in Israel who are inventing and testing 'homeland security' devices. She obviously didn't notice all of those cameras and obstacles outside Harrods' on her last shopping trip to London.

It is pretty revealing Naomi's book sales haven't been doing very well if she would stoop to publishing an article in this old hippie rag, the Georgia Straight, to promote her 'forthcoming book' on Israel's death dealing tech industry. She could be considered an alternative progressively socialist Straight, I suppose.

Alexandra, you missed the point by a long-shot.... just like jbg did.

My "epiphany" had nothing to do with Israel "creating" these devices as you imply, nor did I suggest that they "created" terrorism as jbg implied.

In a nutshell, what Naomi Klein is saying (which resonated tremendously with me) is that Israel's economy suffered after the dot.com crash. The revival of its economy came as a result of arms-deals in a post 9/11 world..... as such - and no matter how much you try to discredit the author herself - it's hard to argue that peace in the Middle-East is in Israel's economic interest.

Unless you think that they will not miss a $3+billion industry and go back to.... um, give me a minute on this, I'm sure there was another market Israel dominated. Um, wait. Nope, that's about it.

Point made Naomi Klein.

[jbg]

it's hard to argue that peace in the Middle-East is in Israel's economic interest.

No, BC_Chick -

What I said is that Israel is opportunistic (or perhaps a better word is opportunity seekers), as Jews have been forced to be over history. They'd find a way to make money in peacetime as well. I venture to guess lots of money. The Jewish areas of Vancouver are not gang-ridden slums (or so I guess).

[BC_chick]

What I said is that Israel is opportunistic (or perhaps a better word is opportunity seekers), as Jews have been forced to be over history. They'd find a way to make money in peacetime as well. I venture to guess lots of money. The Jewish areas of Vancouver are not gang-ridden slums (or so I guess).

No argument from me there, your tribe has done very well for yourselves, I am aware of that and most Jews I knew are very educated and hard-working.

However, that does not negate anything as far as this thread is concerned.

At the present-time, with a booming industry in the arms-deal and not much else to fall back on (does anything pay better anyway?) it's hard to argue with Klein's thesis that peace in the Middle-East is not in Israel's economic interest.

[jbg]

it's hard to argue with Klein's thesis that peace in the Middle-East is not in Israel's economic interest.

Again, aside from uber-religious Jewish areas such as Brooklyn's Williamsburg, Jews do very well economically. Most are not associated with military production.

[WestViking]

At the present-time, with a booming industry in the arms-deal and not much else to fall back on (does anything pay better anyway?) it's hard to argue with Klein's thesis that peace in the Middle-East is not in Israel's economic interest.

You mean alternate exports like this?

Google "Israel exports" and get set for an education.

[bush_cheney2004]

At the present-time, with a booming industry in the arms-deal and not much else to fall back on (does anything pay better anyway?) it's hard to argue with Klein's thesis that peace in the Middle-East is not in Israel's economic interest.

This is utter nonsense....Israel has the most diverse market economy in the Mideast, which includes a free trade zone with Canada for agricultural products.

[BC_chick]

You mean alternate exports like this?

Google "Israel exports" and get set for an education.

Trade alone is not a booming economy.

After the dot-com bubble burst in 2000, Israel's economy was devastated, facing its worst year since 1953. snip

Within three years, large parts of Israel's tech economy had been radically repurposed. snip

Discussions of Israel's military trade usually focus on the flow of weapons into the country, U.S.–made Caterpillar bulldozers used to destroy homes in the West Bank, and British companies supplying parts for F-16s. Overlooked is Israel's huge and expanding export business. Israel now sends $1.2 billion in "defence" products to the United States alone, up dramatically from $270 million in 1999. All told in 2006, Israel exported 3.4 billion in defence products–well over $1 billion more than it received in U.S. military aid. That makes Israel the fourth-largest arms dealer in the world, overtaking Britain.

snip, my mistake

Edited June 25, 2007 by BC_chick

[ScottSA]

What utter nonsense this article is. It is factually wrong on just about every count, idiotic in its analysis, and damned near anti-semetic to boot. Israels economy thrioves on war? Well, maybe, not not according to economists:

"The bitter Israeli-Palestinian conflict; difficulties in the high-technology, construction, and tourist sectors; and fiscal austerity in the face of growing inflation led to small declines in GDP in 2001 and 2002. The economy rebounded in 2003-05, growing at a 4% to 5.2% rate each year, as the government tightened fiscal policy and implemented structural reforms to boost competition and efficiency in the markets. The conflict with Lebanon in summer 2006 slightly dampened GDP growth, but continuing strong foreign investment, tax revenue, and private consumption levels helped the economy recover quickly."

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...os/is.html#Econ

So in fact it ISN'T kinda hard to argue that peace is in Israel's interests. Unless of course you're a radical muffethead that no one is interested in. She essentially takes one aspect of Israel's economy and builds it into some vast Jewish conspiracy very close in theme to the Protocals of Zion.

BC Chick, I suggest you stop waiting for epiphanies and start learning about the mindset of the Palestinians, and more particularly the Islamic Palestinians. Only then will you reach the "epiphany" that it's all quite simple after all. Just not the way you think.

[jbg]

BC Chick, I suggest you stop waiting for epiphanies and start learning about the mindset of the Palestinians, and more particularly the Islamic Palestinians. Only then will you reach the "epiphany" that it's all quite simple after all. Just not the way you think.

The epiphany being that they like to kill people.

[buffycat]

Good article from Klein.

Israel has always reaped a peculiar benefit from the unstable position with her nieghbours and those she occupies. It has been clear for many years that she has a very well developed 'security' sector and military complex.

Which begs the question: If she is so successful in this manner, and has a economic boom currently in these 'war' related avenues - they why oh why is the US still funding her with aid MORE than any other country? I think Israel is now ranked somewhere within the 20 most wealthy states - so why not only the continuence of AID but also the increasing of AiD?

IMO this close association between Israel and the US has done more harm to both soveriegn nations (if you can separate them at this point).

So, Klein is correct - Israel has profitted greatly by the use of fear tactics and maniplations. (not just in private sector but in the aid sector as well).

Google Results of 'increase US aid to Israel

[jbg]

Israel has always reaped a peculiar benefit from the unstable position with her nieghbours and those she occupies. It has been clear for many years that she has a very well developed 'security' sector and military complex.

Israel would rather operate in a peaceful world, with industries of peace. If those choices aren't available to it, it makes the best of a bad situation.

Which begs the question: If she is so successful in this manner, and has a economic boom currently in these 'war' related avenues - they why oh why is the US still funding her with aid MORE than any other country? I think Israel is now ranked somewhere within the 20 most wealthy states - so why not only the continuence of AID but also the increasing of AiD?

IMO this close association between Israel and the US has done more harm to both soveriegn nations (if you can separate them at this point).

Maybe the aid to Israel doesn't go largely to Swiss banks (yes, I know there is some corruption, but nothing like surrounding countries). Maybe the US feels the need for a reliable, stable ally in a key area of the world, not one where palace intrigue could knock off the leader any minute.

[kuzadd]

I don't think, Israel, like the US would prefer to operate within a peaceful world, or neither country would go to such great lengths, to foment war.

Interestingly I have been reading the book "Puppetmasters" oh what a tangled web we weave!

In the book, Mossad, had contacted terrorist groups in Italy (Red Brigades), as the interest in destabilizing italy was present and beneficial to Israel, so that Israel, could be the "most stable ally" in the region of the ME.

One has to look at everything from the INTERESTS of the country.

There are a great many reasons why/how Israel benefits from the instability around it.

[Rue]

The "what" of the conflict has been well documented... but, this article puts forth a fantastic "why" which is, IMO, the most compelling reconciliation of logic and human nature when it comes to this debate.

Come on B.C. Chick. You find an article that tells you what you want to hear and then you feel this is the way to understand the Israeli economy and with this one opinion piece, you now understand what Israel is about? Get serious!

Try reading economic studies by economists.

Tell me BC Chick, does this article make sense to you because it suggests Israel is getting rich for unethical reasons? Does that fit your stereotype of evil Jews with money? Oh gosh no. That can't be the reason. Its based on logic.

You want to talk about Israel's economy seriously rather then engage in simplistic, subjective, inaccurate,

opinion pieces, that conform to a preconceived stereotype that for Israel to do well it must be based on questionable activities, try some of this information out, and go check it for yourself if you think I made it up. And no it is not an accident you have epiphanies when you discuss Israel. You are properly completely unaware of your Christian reference and how you are simply feeding into the israel(jews) with money are doing something sinister concept.

The Israeli economy at the present time is being fueled by advanced technology companies which grew 5.3% in 2005, then 6.6% in the first half of 2006. 1 in 10 Israelis is employed in high technology. High technology computer systems represent 50% of Israel’s exports and another 30% of Israeli exports also consist of advanced technology components.

According to the Central Bureau of Statistics of the Government of Israel, exports of goods and services rose 10/5% in 2005 to $42.8 billion then climbed again in the first half of 2006 by another 6.5% for another $23 billion. Israel’s trade deficit has been significantly lowered since imports were $23 billion for the first half of 2006. Unemployment has gone from 11% to 8.8% in the last 3 year period.

When we say high technology BC Chick we are referring to mobile-cellular communications, internet applications, software services, semiconductors, medical devices, electro-optics, electronic accessories for defense and homeland security equipment. Of all the of the above exports, only about $4.2 billion is in actual military equipment sales. Sorry to burst your bubble.

In addition to high technology, the Israeli enterprise, Teva Pharmaceuticals with sales in 2006 of about $7 billion represents the world’s largest generic drug manufacturer. Of that $7 billion, $1.3 billion came from the sale of Copaxone, today’s preferred treatment for multiple sclerosis.

Now are you angry and resentful and what appears to be Israeli success? Not to worry. According to Dr. Glenn Yago, Director of Capital Studies at the Milken Institute, and three economic studies published by the Koret Israel Economic Development Funds, any conclusions as to Israel's economy are premature because Israel must still reduce the government's strict controls over budget and regulatory policies, and address numerous government policies that serve as disincentives to entrepreneurs. According to these economic studies, Israel continues to lack effective financial institutions and capital markets.

Major economuc problems continue in Israel that could cause a down-turn in its economy including the fact that while small business in Israel compromises 96.5% of its business, it only receives 10-23% of local credit and less then 1% of small business borrowers received 70% of all credit.

Consider this; while securitization in the U.S. is at a rate of 230% of its gdp, in the last 4 years, Israel's

securitization was only 14% of its gdp. Which means its economy is not built on competition in a free stock market at this time.

Israel's inner cities, particularly Jerusalem, Tel Aviv-Jaffa and Haifa are in serious decay and in need of major economic revitalization which will represent a serious strain on its ecoomy in years to come.

More to the point, over 90% of venture capital in Israel comes from investors outside of Israel, mostly from the U.S. where the silicone valley firms continue to invest or buy out Israeli high technology firms whose products you will be using. When you are that reliant on external venture capital, you can be shut down very quickly.

So if Israel's economy is doing well AT THE MOMENT it is because of high technology developments by its high tech computer industry BC Chick.

It is doing well right now, but economic activities works in cycles and to think you can simply label Israel's economic performance based on a specific isolated period of time is dumb dumb and dumber. Israel is in a momentary strong cycle which wil continue to come and go with other cycles.

[M.Dancer]

Israel is also a major exporter of minerals, fertilizer and finished cut diamonds.

But lets not get in the way of yet another jab at the j00s.....

[Rue]

I don't think....

I agree with your above comment Kuzadd.

[Rue]

Good article from Klein. Israel has always reaped a peculiar benefit from the unstable position with her nieghbours and those she occupies. It has been clear for many years that she has a very well developed 'security' sector and military complex. "

Once again Buffy you find something that fits your preconceived stereotypes and you simply stop thinking and repeat because its what you want to hear.

Would it dawn on you that repeated exposure to terrorism serves to create serious inflation? Why don't you try read and research instead of just accepting one article that tells you what you want to hear.

Israelis have suffered from out of control inflation, oppressive taxes and extreme financial regulation and have had to do without a lot of the things you take for granted precisely because of the need to constantly defend itself.

And no Buffy you are dead wrong with your stereotupe that Israel profits from war-but then why stop the ancient and now up-dated concept of Jews/Israelis only being able to make money off of the blood of others right? Israel evil. Israel makes its money from blood and suffering. Yah right. Oh but no Buffy doesn't mean that at all.

This security sector and military complex has drained Israel's economy Buffy not added to it and if you can't understand that then go read about Israel's economy.

Its current boom is not caused by military sales but high technology firms and no sorry Buffy its not all military in fact most if it is not military at all and will be used by you very soon as you continue to surf the next and find your information on Israel!

Now you wantg to discuss the insatability of Israel's neighbours then get serious. The economic policies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, have nothing to do with Israel and to suggest Israel profits from them is nonsense. Israel does not trade with them or have any economic relationship with them nor does it compete in the same markets as them.

The Arab League nations disasterous econopmic performance has resulted from coruption-sheer coruption and lack of accountable democractically elected governments and financial institutions which are regulated.

Oh but it's Israel's fault.

As for the Palestinian economy, why don't you go find out what Arafat did with the billions of dollars and aid sent to him.

Why don't you ask what Hamas did with the aid money given to it.

Oh its Israel's fault Arafat stole from his people. It's Israel's fault Hamas chooses to starve its people to death.

I have news for you Buffy-when Hamas declared it would not engage in terror in the 1980's at tremendous sacrifice to its own economy and people, Israel paid the salaries of 14,000 Palestinian civil servants and funded all of its economy while the Arab League did NOTHING and still does NOTHING.

When Hamas chose to turn to terror and destroy the economic infrastructure Israel built for Palestinians and threatened Palestinians with death if they tried to go to Israel to work or use anything Israel funded, it was HAMAS not Israel that set the stage for the current disaster. Hamas deliberately destroyed its economy as a political tactic. It was premeditated and broadcast to the whole world.

But of course in your world Buffy, Israel bad bad bad and you are now an economic expert as well as a conflict expert.

Excuse me, I have to go sell some guns.

[Rue]

Israel is also a major exporter of minerals, fertilizer and finished cut diamonds.

But lets not get in the way of yet another jab at the j00s.....

What? It can't be true. The Israelis make their money off of blood I tell you. (hint, Israels are wink wink nudge nudge, how do I say it Jews...and you know how Jews make money.....the evil way...it can't possibly be based on anything ethical...oh but no one meant to raise this stereotype at all...that is not what is behind this discussion at all...its me seeing things because I am a Zionist provocateur)