Hillier says SOME troops upset

[Topaz]

Hiller is saying some troops upset with the topic of the detainees? Why is only SOME and not all? Is it the Conservative supporters of the military that are upset? NO ONE has said that the soldiers have done anything wrong. I also, wonder if some of the military would rather have had their loved one come over for a visit rather than the Stanley Cup and the players.

[hiti]

Hilliar said? Another pants on fire con.

[jdobbin]

Hiller is saying some troops upset with the topic of the detainees? Why is only SOME and not all? Is it the Conservative supporters of the military that are upset? NO ONE has said that the soldiers have done anything wrong. I also, wonder if some of the military would rather have had their loved one come over for a visit rather than the Stanley Cup and the players.

They should blame Hillier for signing the deal that was not consulted on by Foreign Affairs.

[Catchme]

Speaking to reporters in the southern Afghanistan city of Kandahar, Gen. Rick Hillier said he had been talking to soldiers in the previous few hours who were upset that the allegations have taken the focus — especially back in Canada — away from all the positive things that they feel they're accomplishing.

"And let me just come out and say very frankly here, I met a variety of soldiers who are pissed off," Hillier said.

NOTE: Hillier does not say who they are "pissed off" at.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/05/02/hillier-abuse.html

[weaponeer]

We are pissed off that there are folks making mountains outta mole hills. Lets again find reasons to shove our own heads in the mud yet again. No, we won't spend $$ to properly support and equip the military, but we should pay millions to bring talibs to Canada.....

There is no prof other that the talibs "say so" that it ever happened. Some folks love to rush to judgment about things they know nothing about. Even the talibs said we Canadians treated them with respect. We are in a very different part of the world here, business is conducted very differently, and some people cannot stomach that. If these people were "tortured", that's too bad, but deal or no deal it will happen. Even if we send people to look into the prisons it will happen. We cannot be everwhere all the time. The "torture" the talibs complained about is nothing compared to what I have seen them do here to people, not to mention what THEY did to prisoners in their time.

The current Afghan gov't is not perfect, but is miles ahead of the talib alternative. The talibs are playing to the media, getting the weak kneed people back home stirred up, looks like it worked on here. They are playing to the media, simple...

Frankly, I dont think most average Canadians give a damm about talib prisoners. I doesn't come up in conversation at the dinner table back home.

Canadians are in no position to impose morality on these people. We are in no position to tell them how to treat prisoners, what makes us any better. Maybe it is we that have it wrong.

[jdobbin]

Frankly, I dont think most average Canadians give a damm about talib prisoners. I doesn't come up in conversation at the dinner table back home.

Canadians are in no position to impose morality on these people. We are in no position to tell them how to treat prisoners, what makes us any better. Maybe it is we that have it wrong.

If we are no position to have a say on detainees the rationale is what are we doing there in the first place? According to polls, Canadians do care if we are complicit in torture.

[Keepitsimple]

Amnesty International is before the Federal Court in Ottawa claiming somehow that turning over Taliban terrorists to the Afghan government is a violation of the Charter of Rights. Thank you, Pierre Trudeau.

"Canada's practice of turning detainees over to Afghan security forces, widely accused of torture and abuse, violates international law and the Charter of Rights, Amnesty International and the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association say."

Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

[Catchme]

We are pissed off that there are folks making mountains outta mole hills.

Interesting, as the Canadians who are upset appear to be in the majority and they believe this is a mountain, not a molehill

Frankly, I dont think most average Canadians give a damm about talib prisoners.

They do!

Canadians are in no position to impose morality on these people. We are in no position to tell them how to treat prisoners, what makes us any better. Maybe it is we that have it wrong.

Well, by your comments, you would be fine with having the military pulled today from there then eh?

Because we sure as heck are over there doing more than imposing morality and not just in this instance now aren't we?

Moreover, if we are NO position to tell them how to treat prisoners we hand over, although there is a signed agreement specifying how they are to be treated, then we are in NO position to tell them to how do anything at all, and as such our military should be leaving immediately. You can't have it both ways.

Canadians have every right to demand and expect that ALL prisoners, that were transfered by our representatives there, be treated correctly, and we are absolutely right about it. Those who do not give a damn are the ones who have it wrong, and really need to examine their own personal reality and morality, or lack thereof.

[scribblet]

Frankly, I dont think most average Canadians give a damm about talib prisoners. I doesn't come up in conversation at the dinner table back home.

Canadians are in no position to impose morality on these people. We are in no position to tell them how to treat prisoners, what makes us any better. Maybe it is we that have it wrong.

I agree with that I don't think most do care, they might if the Taliban were as concerned about human rights and civil liberties as we are.

The only people who care right now are the opposition to score political points, and thats pretty darned hypocritical considering their part on all of it.

[Michael Bluth]

Frankly, I dont think most average Canadians give a damm about talib prisoners. I doesn't come up in conversation at the dinner table back home.

Canadians are in no position to impose morality on these people. We are in no position to tell them how to treat prisoners, what makes us any better. Maybe it is we that have it wrong.

Not enough Liberals and NDP supporters care about the work you guys do over there.

They don't really get the point that this fuss they are causing hurts you guys and your morale.

Let me be the one to say we appreciate the work you are doing over there. It's good to see that you have a Government that really supports you and your efforts.

[Wilber]

They do!

Actually they don't, and why should they.

[jdobbin]

Actually they don't, and why should they.

They care enough that they want the troops back immediately according to the last major poll on the subject.

[B. Max]

We are pissed off that there are folks making mountains outta mole hills. Lets again find reasons to shove our own heads in the mud yet again. No, we won't spend $$ to properly support and equip the military, but we should pay millions to bring talibs to Canada.....

Just our own quisling types. Who should be reminded that al Qaeda and the taliban don't take prisoners any longer than it takes to line them up and shoot them or chop necks.

[jbg]

We are pissed off that there are folks making mountains outta mole hills. Lets again find reasons to shove our own heads in the mud yet again. No, we won't spend $$ to properly support and equip the military, but we should pay millions to bring talibs to Canada.....

I shed tears all night for those gentle innocent Talibs.

[jdobbin]

I shed tears all night for those gentle innocent Talibs.

Shed tears for the people who were arrested who weren't Taliban and tortured according to the Globe and Mail.

At any rate, justification for torture such as what you are doing, certainly does not raise support for the mission.

[betsy]

Hiller is saying some troops upset with the topic of the detainees? Why is only SOME and not all? Is it the Conservative supporters of the military that are upset? NO ONE has said that the soldiers have done anything wrong. I also, wonder if some of the military would rather have had their loved one come over for a visit rather than the Stanley Cup and the players.

So now we're attacking our troops, eh?

Sure no one has said the troops had done anything wrong. BUT IT'S THE ATTITUDE OF PLACING MORE CONFIDENCE IN WHAT THE DETAINED SUSPECTS SAY that is abhorrent in this situation. We are at war!

That is what the other parties don't seem to get!

[betsy]

I shed tears all night for those gentle innocent Talibs.

Shed tears for the people who were arrested who weren't Taliban and tortured according to the Globe and Mail.

At any rate, justification for torture such as what you are doing, certainly does not support for the mission.

Everything is nothing more than just ALLEGATIONS at this point! That's what Nato says.

Show me some proof!

[jbg]

Show me some proof!

A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven (link).

[Army Guy]

Hiller is saying some troops upset with the topic of the detainees? Why is only SOME and not all? Is it the Conservative supporters of the military that are upset? NO ONE has said that the soldiers have done anything wrong. I also, wonder if some of the military would rather have had their loved one come over for a visit rather than the Stanley Cup and the players.

I'm sure that if you took a poll most would be pissed off, the others well they got other things on thier minds like dodging bullets, and IED's....The real question you should be asking is WHY they are pissed off, or did you not hear that part of Hilliers speach...I think they have that right, and the cause to be pissed....

As for no one saying that soldiers did anything wrong BS, These accusations, and i say accusation because nobody has provided any proof of them as of yet..anyway come just weeks after Soldiers ,our soldiers were accused of abusing or handling prisoners roughly, And as soon as they were proven false...they have finally came up with the current accusation...They will continue until they get results...

As for the vists by family, sure they would, but lets take a look at that for a minute, the camp takes rocket and mortar fire regularly, it's a military camp set just back of the front lines, would you want your family there ? not really, a vist from lord stanley and some hockey players is a welcome tempory relief from the day to day threats...

I've read many posts here and on other forums and media outlets, and Canadians have pionted towards the Military, unlike most other depts ours is one that is close knit and and a finger pionted at the military is one piont at all of us, soldiers, airman and sailors...

Below is the article from the Geneva convention that pertains to this situation read it and tell me what you think, keep in mind that the accusations have yet been proven, and that Canadian authorities and diplomats have inspected some of these facilties and have found no prisoner abuse or signs of torture todate...

Article 12

Prisoners of war may only be transferred by the Detaining Power to a Power which is a party to the Convention and after the Detaining Power has satisfied itself of the willingness and ability of such transferee Power to apply the Convention. When prisoners of war are transferred under such circumstances, responsibility for the application of the Convention rests on the Power accepting them while they are in its custody.

Nevertheless if that Power fails to carry out the provisions of the Convention in any important respect, the Power by whom the prisoners of war were transferred shall, upon being notified by the Protecting Power, take effective measures to correct the situation or shall request the return of the prisoners of war. Such requests must be complied with.

Something we have all forgotten here is that our soldiers are carring out this mission as best as they can, and are setting the standards for almost everything we do, and we are doing that without the support from the majority of Canadians...trying doing anything in your life without the support of your family or loved ones and then tell me if it is not mission impossable.... it's truly been an uphill climb all the way...

Well, by your comments, you would be fine with having the military pulled today from there then eh?

Soldiers are starting to lose taste for this mission, not because of anything the enemy does,or it is un achievable but because the Canadian people refuse to stand shoulder to shoulder with us....They failed to come to the conclusion that thier role in conflict is as important as ours, without thier support we lose....end of story...

But when you do pull us home in defeat don't be expecting us to be greatful, and shakin hands and shouting our praise... but instead be prepared to explain why, you sent us over in the first place, explain how we explain to those widows thier loved ones died for what exactly...and if you can't do that then stay the fu*k away from trenton as your not welcome.

Because we sure as heck are over there doing more than imposing morality and not just in this instance now aren't we?

Got something else to say, perhaps another accusation then spill the beans. Our nations military has done everything it has been asked to do , it has done it all with distinction and accolades. It's got nothing to hide.

Canadians have every right to demand and expect that ALL prisoners, that were transfered by our representatives there, be treated correctly, and we are absolutely right about it. Those who do not give a damn are the ones who have it wrong, and really need to examine their own personal reality and morality, or lack thereof.

Yes we as a Nation should respect those treaties and conventions that we have signed, And we have demanded that our forces do respect them as closly as possiable ....That being said our history has shown us that we are in no postion to demand that of another nation, as we our selfs have broken those same treaties and conventions when it suited us.

As for those whom it does not pose a problem with have seen this conflict up close and have seen the results of the Talibans brutal riegn of power.. is that an excuse perhaps not but it does explain where they are coming from and just how they developed thier opinions.

[Figleaf]

I'm sure that if you took a poll most would be pissed off, the others well they got other things on thier minds like dodging bullets, and IED's....The real question you should be asking is WHY they are pissed off, or did you not hear that part of Hilliers speach...I think they have that right, and the cause to be pissed....

I don't see why. The issue of handing over detainees involves no criticism of the troops. It is directed at the policy makers who have failed to ensure proper procedures or facilities.

Something we have all forgotten here is that our soldiers are carring out this mission as best as they can, ...

I have no idea how you have come to think that. I think you're mistaken. No-one has forgotten that.

...we are doing that without the support from the majority of Canadians...

Canadian taxes continue to be deployed for this purpose. Last time I checked, Canada was a democracy. If the majority of Canadians feels the deployment should end, that is our right to think and carry out, and NOT something an illegitimate military lobby should concern itself with. Policy is not for the military to dictate.

trying doing anything in your life without the support of your family or loved ones and then tell me if it is not mission impossable.... it's truly been an uphill climb all the way...

Could you be specific about how citizen opinion hampers operational effectiveness? Or the risks to soldiers in the field?

Soldiers are starting to lose taste for this mission, not because of anything the enemy does,or it is un achievable but because the Canadian people refuse to stand shoulder to shoulder with us...

That's good. If the citizens you are serving don't want the mission, then the soldiers too should wonder about it.

They failed to come to the conclusion that thier role in conflict is as important as ours, without thier support we lose....end of story...

The mission as currently described and resources is futile. It is the duty of citizens to politically assess the propriety of uses of the military.

But when you do pull us home in defeat don't be expecting us to be greatful, and shakin hands and shouting our praise... but instead be prepared to explain why, you sent us over in the first place,...

The deployment was initially to discharge treaty obligations respecting the attack on our ally the United States. There does not appear to be a sensible explanation for continuing beyond that purpose and no more military people should be risked pointlessly.

Got something else to say, perhaps another accusation then spill the beans. Our nations military has done everything it has been asked to do , it has done it all with distinction and accolades.

Agreed.

[betsy]

Could you be specific about how citizen opinion hampers operational effectiveness? Or the risks to soldiers in the field?

The enemies do get the news. One of the most helpful thing to happen is for your opponent to have low morale.

Why do MPs have to publicly discuss things related to our war? There are things that shouldn't be made public at war-times. If they have to bicker about it....do it in private!

Blasted hell. It's like us rallying the enemies to try harder!

The last thing you want is encourage your enemies. OH, the Canadians are about to give up! The pressure of the public is piling up! C'mon taliban comrades....victory is near!

[Michael Bluth]

You said this ...

I don't see why. The issue of handing over detainees involves no criticism of the troops. It is directed at the policy makers who have failed to ensure proper procedures or facilities.

but you also said this.

If the citizens you are serving don't want the mission, then the soldiers too should wonder about it.

Morale of the troops is key. Yet you are endorsing the harmful effects of the allegations on the troops.

[Army Guy]

I don't see why. The issue of handing over detainees involves no criticism of the troops. It is directed at the policy makers who have failed to ensure proper procedures or facilities.

This is not how we see it, a few weeks ago it was the soldiers that were accused,for abusing prisoners and despite what the forum here believes not all Canadians believe in thier hearts that we are "not" abusing prisoners..

I agree that it should have sparked a debate, if only to clear our name ,but that is not how i or alot of my comrads seen it, instead we seen Canadians actually believeing those taliban scumbags over our own soldiers....It was also used by many different groups whose only interest is ending the mission and if that cost came at our soldiers good name then so be it...

And now that those accusations have not bore the fruit and controversy they were meant to, they have changed course and tactics now making the accusation that they were abused in Afgan jails...and here we are right now debating once again "how we are not as a nation living up with our agreements or conventions" and for some reason the Canadian people are buying into the story without any "Proof"...march those guilty pricks in here....see the pattern here...

Why the troops are pissed, actually having to explain it kind of proves my piont. but here goes...Our nations troops are pouring everything they own into this mission, around the clock 365 days a year , not only in sweat equity, but living in asture conditions, time away from thier families,loved ones, they risk thier lives daily, they've buried thier comrads with the same crictical thinking...something we all hold near and dear, and yet they continue to do "regardless of what you or the majority of Canadians think of the mission,"they believe in it all" or they would not do the things they do everyday...

And when you pour everything you have into a mission, you get attached to it, ....

I have no idea how you have come to think that. I think you're mistaken. No-one has forgotten that.

Again that becomes hard to believe when Canadians have made thier mind up with out any evidence, and while it is not all Canadians it still comes as a slap in the face. and brings into question have they forgotten what we've accomplished in Afgan todate.

Canadian taxes continue to be deployed for this purpose. Last time I checked, Canada was a democracy. If the majority of Canadians feels the deployment should end, that is our right to think and carry out, and NOT something an illegitimate military lobby should concern itself with. Policy is not for the military to dictate.

Again the taxes thing, soldiers not only pay taxes but also are allowed to vote, and alothough i'm not pionting the finger at anyone there are some that have said"shut the fu*k up and do what i pay you to do" and that soldiers do not have a vioce in all this...

And since we are talking about a democracy and the Canadian people want a say in how we deploy the military they should also be held accountable for it decissions, good or bad, if they were given such power why are we still in Afgan now.....but we both know that is not how things work...

But what is really sad is that the soldiers clearly believe in this mission, regardless of cost to them, it is them that have so much to gain from coming home and yet all of that has not changed thier minds...and the majority of canadians seem to either be more informed , or easily swayed by the media...either way they know better than our soldiers, as the polls would suggest.

One last piont in regards to all of this ,like you said it is not the military that dictate policy or decide what the mission is going to be, that belongs to our government and the people who hold thier keys via the vote.

we like to remind you that at the start of the mission that the majority was standing shoulder to shoulder with us, and slowly decided it was not thier thing....leaving us the soldiers holding the bag alone so to speak with those in the minority. It was Canada's mission, now soldiers are asking where did you all go?

The mission as currently described and resources is futile. It is the duty of citizens to politically assess the propriety of uses of the military.

I find that just alittle funny, and the same time belittling, Funny because the people that are saying this have not even been there, or spent a just few days on the ground, and what qualifactions do they have.

Belittling as they refuse to takethe word of those that are on the ground right now be it soldiers or the RCMP, or the Diplomats, or CIDA pers. what gives , what do you know as fact that we do not....

Lets not talk duty to a soldier, Most Canadians would'nt know duty if it bit them in the ass. But

As for duty, lets talk about that for a minute, Are these the same people who had the duty to ensure that this mission was researched and a good one for Canada, and our military, That we had the right equipment for the mission, that we were funded properly for the mission, The same people that for years said nothing as our entire defense struture was deboned, in favour for other social projects. Because now your starting to scare me..

The deployment was initially to discharge treaty obligations respecting the attack on our ally the United States. There does not appear to be a sensible explanation for continuing beyond that purpose and no more military people should be risked pointlessly.

CF site

Not true, our mission was very clear at the start, and after that first mission was decided and finshed, The orginal drafters of the first mission agreed to assist in the caring on, and so did the majority of Canadians..

What is frustrating to soldiers is the fact that we are on different plains of thought when talking about this mission. The soldiers are the ones that continue to say it is an honourable one, that it is achievable, that we can make this work if you give us the time...all that not because we have to believe in the mission, making it easier to do, or it is our jobs and what we are paid to do....Soldiers have a historical record of tell the public good missions and bad missions....We have nothing to gain by lying to you, "we do not pray for war",we are not killers by nature...the only thing we would have to gain is living longer, getting out of a war enviroment , spending more time with family and loved ones, doing things all Canadians love to see and do, and watch our kids grow up, and never having someone else show them a picture and having to say this is your dad, he was a good man....

And we have to ask why risk all of that if we did not know we could win this thing...but maybe i'm just some dumb grunt that does not know as much as the average Canadian.

[jdobbin]

Everything is nothing more than just ALLEGATIONS at this point! That's what Nato says.

Show me some proof!

Is that what NATO said?

I seem to recall they said they were going to investigate the treatment.

Canada's own Foreign Affairs department says that torture is rampant. The best our government was able to do was say that all detainees were being monitored. They weren't.

[weaponeer]

We are pissed off that there are folks making mountains outta mole hills.

Interesting, as the Canadians who are upset appear to be in the majority and they believe this is a mountain, not a molehill

Frankly, I dont think most average Canadians give a damm about talib prisoners.

They do!

Canadians are in no position to impose morality on these people. We are in no position to tell them how to treat prisoners, what makes us any better. Maybe it is we that have it wrong.

Well, by your comments, you would be fine with having the military pulled today from there then eh?

Because we sure as heck are over there doing more than imposing morality and not just in this instance now aren't we?

Moreover, if we are NO position to tell them how to treat prisoners we hand over, although there is a signed agreement specifying how they are to be treated, then we are in NO position to tell them to how do anything at all, and as such our military should be leaving immediately. You can't have it both ways.

Canadians have every right to demand and expect that ALL prisoners, that were transfered by our representatives there, be treated correctly, and we are absolutely right about it. Those who do not give a damn are the ones who have it wrong, and really need to examine their own personal reality and morality, or lack thereof.

We are in Afghanistan to prevent the place from being used as a base of operations for AQ. Had the talibs handed over the AQ folks in 2001 we would not be there. Our job is to destroy AQ bases of operations. Helping the Afghans rebuild is part of that.

How they form their culture, create there institutions is their call ultimatley. We can provide advice, but the Afghan gov't makes the final call.

By the way, all you anti Karzi folks out there, you people who go on about his corrupt gov't, what is you alternative plan???? The talibs perhaps..... Frankly you could care less, that's easy for you, your not here looking into their eyes, your not the one who will say goodbye, real easy for you....

No, Canada is in NO position to dictate morality to anyone. We live in a morally corrupt society, but it's our corrupt society. No, we don't "torture" prisoners in our jails, we do it the other way around, we allow prisoners and criminals to torture our citizens. "Sex offender out on parole rapes kid and/or woman" I am sure we've all heard that one. Whitmore even said he'd reoffend, and we let him out anyway, yes, we Canadians are really concerned about the safty of our kids... We should not abuse prisoners in Afghanistan, but it is OK to sanction the rape of our own women & children b releasing these twits into or society.

We preach morality, yet we have state sanction child murder in Canada. We call it abortion, we call it a "procedure", but it is baby murder none the less. (for the record I am not apposed to it, just call it what it really is, baby killing, not to comfortable is it). Try talking to an Afghani about morality now....

Human rights, the anti-war crowd could care less about human rights. The politics of protest, you care about human rights, rule of law, as long as you don't REALLY have to do anything about it. You can get together in Tronto or Vancouver in marches and cry about human rights, rule of law, the the UN, and speak about how morally superior you are because you don't like war, as long as you don't really have to go ENFORCE those issues. War is here to stay, it is a reality of the human experience that is not going to go away because we don't like it, no more than crime, AIDS or cancer will go away, deal with it!!!!

GW Bush is evil because he invaded Iraq, we are bad for being in Afghanistan, but the same dimwits think we should sent troops to Darfour to help the people there, evn though the Sudan gov't has said repeatedly... So what do we do, send them anyway, INVADE YOU MEAN......

The number one jo of the Canadian gov't, regardless of who it is, is to defend and protect Canada. The gov't has to lead, do what is right, regardless if it is popular or not. You get your children what then NEED, not what they WANT, that's leadership.....

No, the vast majority of Canadians could care less about talib prisoners, it is not coming up at the dinner table of normal people. I seriously doubt the folks back home in North ay Ontario are stting around in the bar tonight watching the hockey game upset about this. I doubt when I get home I will be "banned from the town because I was here. I read the news daily, and I am not seeing tens of thousands of people leaving work to protest in the streets.....