Hillier says SOME troops upset

[Figleaf]

Thank you for your reply.

This is not how we see it, a few weeks ago it was the soldiers that were accused,for abusing prisoners and despite what the forum here believes not all Canadians believe in thier hearts that we are "not" abusing prisoners..

I agree that it should have sparked a debate, if only to clear our name ,but that is not how i or alot of my comrads seen it, instead we seen Canadians actually believeing those taliban scumbags over our own soldiers....It was also used by many different groups whose only interest is ending the mission and if that cost came at our soldiers good name then so be it...

I don't know about the story you're refering to. It certainly did not come to my attention. I wonder if people in the forces heard more about it than the Canadian public did.

In my opinion it is important to investigate allegations of mistreatment when they arise, precisely (a) to thoroughly clear the accused if they are innocent and ( weed them out if they are guilty to preserve and uphold the good name of the Forces.

And now that those accusations have not bore the fruit and controversy they were meant to, they have changed course and tactics now making the accusation that they were abused in Afgan jails...and here we are right now debating once again "how we are not as a nation living up with our agreements or conventions" and for some reason the Canadian people are buying into the story without any "Proof"...march those guilty pricks in here....see the pattern here...

No proof that Afghan security forces have abused prisoners? You mean other than the reports from the prisoners who say they were abused? You mean other than the reports of human rights organizations?

Why the troops are pissed, actually having to explain it kind of proves my piont. but here goes...Our nations troops are pouring everything they own into this mission, around the clock 365 days a year , not only in sweat equity, but living in asture conditions, time away from thier families,loved ones, they risk thier lives daily, they've buried thier comrads with the same crictical thinking...something we all hold near and dear, and yet they continue to do "regardless of what you or the majority of Canadians think of the mission,"they believe in it all" or they would not do the things they do everyday...

And when you pour everything you have into a mission, you get attached to it, ....

Yes, I can see that, but I can't see why they would get pissed off when the political leadership is criticised for failing to carry out its role properly. When I hear that the troops are pissed off about that, I think their opinions are being manipulated by the government of the day.

Again that becomes hard to believe when Canadians have made thier mind up with out any evidence, and while it is not all Canadians it still comes as a slap in the face. and brings into question have they forgotten what we've accomplished in Afgan todate.

Well, let's consider that. The taliban government was overthrown -- that's good. A bunch of Taliban sympathizers have been confronted and bested, frequently. A good many Afghan's lives have been saved and/or improved. Am I missing anything? That's certainly an admirable record. But I doesn't convince me there is a happy conclusion coming for the mission or Afghanistan.

Canadian taxes continue to be deployed for this purpose. Last time I checked, Canada was a democracy. If the majority of Canadians feels the deployment should end, that is our right to think and carry out, and NOT something an illegitimate military lobby should concern itself with. Policy is not for the military to dictate.

Again the taxes thing, soldiers not only pay taxes but also are allowed to vote, and alothough i'm not pionting the finger at anyone there are some that have said"shut the fu*k up and do what i pay you to do" and that soldiers do not have a vioce in all this...

I was commented on taxes by way of indicating that the people of Canada must be supporting the mission because our taxes continue to be used. I'm certainly aware that military people pay taxes.

But what is really sad is that the soldiers clearly believe in this mission, regardless of cost to them, it is them that have so much to gain from coming home and yet all of that has not changed thier minds...and the majority of canadians seem to either be more informed , or easily swayed by the media...either way they know better than our soldiers, as the polls would suggest.

Well, there are what? 3000 members in-theatre? They have a close-up perspective on the situation. And there are what? 30,000,000 other Canadians with a remote perspective on the situation. I'm not convinced that the close-up perspective is necessarily the better one.

One last piont in regards to all of this ,like you said it is not the military that dictate policy or decide what the mission is going to be, that belongs to our government and the people who hold thier keys via the vote.

we like to remind you that at the start of the mission that the majority was standing shoulder to shoulder with us, and slowly decided it was not thier thing....leaving us the soldiers holding the bag alone so to speak with those in the minority. It was Canada's mission, now soldiers are asking where did you all go?

Still here. Still trying to do the right thing, like you are.

The mission as currently described and resources is futile. It is the duty of citizens to politically assess the propriety of uses of the military.

I find that just alittle funny, and the same time belittling, Funny because the people that are saying this have not even been there, or spent a just few days on the ground, and what qualifactions do they have.

Many of us have numerous qualifications. But qualifications aren't really the point. It a question of judgement, not strategic judgement, but rather cost-benefit judgement (and whose costs and whose benefits).

Belittling as they refuse to takethe word of those that are on the ground right now be it soldiers or the RCMP, or the Diplomats, or CIDA pers. what gives , what do you know as fact that we do not....

I think you're wrong to take it as a slight. It's not meant to be, but since it IS ultimately the democratic polity that will make these decisions, we need to discuss them frankly.

... our mission was very clear at the start, and after that first mission was decided and finshed, The orginal drafters of the first mission agreed to assist in the caring on, and so did the majority of Canadians..

Well, sometimes circumstances change. Sometimes people reconsider their choices.

What is frustrating to soldiers is the fact that we are on different plains of thought when talking about this mission. The soldiers are the ones that continue to say it is an honourable one, that it is achievable, that we can make this work if you give us the time...

I don't doubt the honour. And I mean no criticism of the men and women doing the work when I say the mission is futile. But on the one hand I don't a plausible route to 'success' in the mission as it's currently constituted. How will a few thousand soldiers recreate a whole society? And on the other hand, I don't see it as our fight, especially poised against the cost of what reconstituting the mission for success would cost in lives and money both.

[Argus]

Hilliar said? Another pants on fire con.

Does the word "hiti" mean "inane" in some foreign language?

[Argus]

Hiller is saying some troops upset with the topic of the detainees? Why is only SOME and not all? Is it the Conservative supporters of the military that are upset? NO ONE has said that the soldiers have done anything wrong. I also, wonder if some of the military would rather have had their loved one come over for a visit rather than the Stanley Cup and the players.

They should blame Hillier for signing the deal that was not consulted on by Foreign Affairs.

That was after the coup, right, where he removed the Liberals from power and told them he'd do whatever they wanted and they better not dare intervene?

[Argus]

We are pissed off that there are folks making mountains outta mole hills.

Interesting, as the Canadians who are upset appear to be in the majority and they believe this is a mountain, not a molehill

Yeah. Sure. Right. Uh huh. Of course they do. Why, it's all anyone is talking about at work.... snicker.

[Argus]

Actually they don't, and why should they.

They care enough that they want the troops back immediately according to the last major poll on the subject.

Most such polls show the majority of Canadians support the mission - except for Quebecers, who are unanimous in bursting into tears and demanding we leave our equipment and run away as fast as possible.

[Argus]

I'm sure that if you took a poll most would be pissed off, the others well they got other things on thier minds like dodging bullets, and IED's....The real question you should be asking is WHY they are pissed off, or did you not hear that part of Hilliers speach...I think they have that right, and the cause to be pissed....

I don't see why. The issue of handing over detainees involves no criticism of the troops. It is directed at the policy makers who have failed to ensure proper procedures or facilities.

Oh please. There is not one Liberal, not one NDP, not one BQ who could possibly care less what happens to Taliban prisoners, or suspected Taliban or whatnot. They are, in the British vernacular, "wogs", and the opposition does not care any more about them than they do the wogs in the hellhole prisons of Pakistan or Iran or China or Cuba or anywhere else in the third world. This is simply a way of attacking the government and scoring points. Nothing more, nothing less. All the outrage and indignation and shouting is simply farce, an act, with lines written by scriptwriters (er, speech writers) and choreographed moves all done in hopes the ignorant herd whose vote they are playing for will award points to them.

As for the mission in Afghanistan, and the welfare and well-being of the Afghani people, well, if sacrificing that is the price to pay for scoring political points, that is dirt cheap, and readily paid. There are no votes in Afghanistan, after all, except our soldiers, and everyone knows they vote tory anyway.

[Argus]

Everything is nothing more than just ALLEGATIONS at this point! That's what Nato says.

Show me some proof!

Is that what NATO said?

I seem to recall they said they were going to investigate the treatment.

Canada's own Foreign Affairs department says that torture is rampant.

Yes, they said this several years ago, and the Liberals subsequently signed and agreement to turn the prisoners over to them. Not that you like talking about that, of course, being a diehard Liberal supporter. But there it is.

[jdobbin]

Yes, they said this several years ago, and the Liberals subsequently signed and agreement to turn the prisoners over to them. Not that you like talking about that, of course, being a diehard Liberal supporter. But there it is.

And I said, by all means investigate it.

Hillier signed his own agreement not looked over by Foreign Affairs and he completely washes his hands of it.

[jdobbin]

Oh please. There is not one Liberal, not one NDP, not one BQ who could possibly care less what happens to Taliban prisoners, or suspected Taliban or whatnot. They are, in the British vernacular, "wogs", and the opposition does not care any more about them than they do the wogs in the hellhole prisons of Pakistan or Iran or China or Cuba or anywhere else in the third world. This is simply a way of attacking the government and scoring points. Nothing more, nothing less. All the outrage and indignation and shouting is simply farce, an act, with lines written by scriptwriters (er, speech writers) and choreographed moves all done in hopes the ignorant herd whose vote they are playing for will award points to them.

And the Tories are the only ones who really care about the world's welfare, the soldiers. They have hearts of gold and don't do anything that it remotely connected to getting votes. They are simply angels placed on earth to look after us and care, deeply care about all living things.

[betsy]

And the Tories are the only ones who really care about the world's welfare, the soldiers. They have hearts of gold and don't do anything that it remotely connected to getting votes. They are simply angels placed on earth to look after us and care, deeply care about all living things.

Compared to what the other parties are doing....well yeah!

[jdobbin]

Most such polls show the majority of Canadians support the mission - except for Quebecers, who are unanimous in bursting into tears and demanding we leave our equipment and run away as fast as possible.

The polls no longer show that support for the mission. In part, it is because many Canadians are getting a poorly delivered message on Afghanistan from its government.

[jdobbin]

That was after the coup, right, where he removed the Liberals from power and told them he'd do whatever they wanted and they better not dare intervene?

The Defence department didn't care and shunted aside Foreign Affairs in making the deal. Hillier never listened to criticism of the weakness of the agreement and the minister signed off on it based on their recommendations.

[jbg]

Canadians who are upset appear to be in the majority and they believe this is a mountain, not a molehill

This is an "elite" issue, not a "common man" issue. I can see privilieged, 20 year old university students being tearful and weepy about these gentle, innocent Talibanists. I find it hard to imagine the average person, trying to meet a payroll if he operates a business or trying to make ends meet on a paycheck, caring.

[jdobbin]

This is an "elite" issue, not a "common man" issue. I can see privilieged, 20 year old university students being tearful and weepy about these gentle, innocent Talibanists. I find it hard to imagine the average person, trying to meet a payroll if he operates a business or trying to make ends meet on a paycheck, caring.

The average person cares so little about Afghanistan that they want the troops back immediately according to latest polls.

[betsy]

Canadians have every right to demand and expect that ALL prisoners, that were transfered by our representatives there, be treated correctly, and we are absolutely right about it.

"Canadians have every right to demand and expect that ALL prisoners, that were transfered by our representatives there, be treated correctly" - to the extent that you put these prisoners ahead of our own troops?

Let's say you're given a choice, either the safety of our soldiers, or the safety of the prisoners. Which do you choose?

[betsy]

Those who do not give a damn are the ones who have it wrong, and really need to examine their own personal reality and morality, or lack thereof.

Hah!

I do question the rationality, and the reality of those who instantly believe the ALLEGATIONS made by SUSPECTS as absolute facts!

These people would rather gleefully sacrifice the welfare of our troops, undermine the mission....just to make some political points.

So never mind throwing this morality bs! It's like spitting in the wind!

[jdobbin]

"Canadians have every right to demand and expect that ALL prisoners, that were transfered by our representatives there, be treated correctly" - to the extent that you put these prisoners ahead of our own troops?

Let's say you're given a choice, either the safety of our soldiers, or the safety of the prisoners. Which do you choose?

Why does it have to be either/or? Are you supporting torture?

[Wilber]

"Canadians have every right to demand and expect that ALL prisoners, that were transfered by our representatives there, be treated correctly" - to the extent that you put these prisoners ahead of our own troops?

Let's say you're given a choice, either the safety of our soldiers, or the safety of the prisoners. Which do you choose?

Why does it have to be either/or? Are you supporting torture?

It was a simple question, why answer it with another question?

[noahbody]

If you ask me, once Canadain soldiers turn prisoners over, they or the Canadian government shouldn't have to worry about how they are treated. NATO should be the body that ensures POWs are treated as they should be under the Geneva Convention. End of story. Move on.

[jdobbin]

It was a simple question, why answer it with another question?

It isn't a simple question. How is that torture of detainees helps Canadians troops?

[Wilber]

It was a simple question, why answer it with another question?

It isn't a simple question. How is that torture of detainees helps Canadians troops?

How is it that anyone who asks you that question is in favour of torture?

[jdobbin]

How is it that anyone who asks you that question is in favour of torture?

Why is it the question is always framed in that torture is the only option for protecting the troops?

[jdobbin]

If you ask me, once Canadain soldiers turn prisoners over, they or the Canadian government shouldn't have to worry about how they are treated. NATO should be the body that ensures POWs are treated as they should be under the Geneva Convention. End of story. Move on.

NATO didn't sign the Geneva Convention though. Canada did.

[Wilber]

How is it that anyone who asks you that question is in favour of torture?

Why is it the question is always framed in that torture is the only option for protecting the troops?

You are the one who keeps doing that.

This was the question you were asked.

Let's say you're given a choice, either the safety of our soldiers, or the safety of the prisoners. Which do you choose?

[jdobbin]

Let's say you're given a choice, either the safety of our soldiers, or the safety of the prisoners. Which do you choose?

I don't have any idea why the two are together as a choice. Are Canadians soldiers in danger because they are ensuring the safety of those detained?

If so, what is the source of that claim?