Radical Islam is Wrecking the World - Or, Why Can't Anyone Tell th

[jbg]

Every occasion I take the time to peruse the Sunday New York Times or turn on WCBS 880 News (New York City area) I am offended by the implicit and unspoken bias in favor of those trying to dismantle Western civilization, in the name of "tolerance", "self-determination" or "openness". Let me explain.

Over the centuries, many great civilizations have risen and fallen. Usually, the ones that have fallen have succumbed to outside, uncontrollable forces, such as climate change (i.e. the Mayans, whose demise was presumably due to forces that Kyoto could have controlled). The Romans were defeated by the Barbarians. Perhaps they overexpanded, perhaps their was a whiff of complacency to the "barbarians at the gate". I don't know. I'm not a student of Roman history.

Unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam was consciously started during the 700's or 800's as a new religion by its founder, Mohamed. Jesus did not set out to start a religion, nor did Abraham. The religion initially was spread at the point of a sword, and its ideology justifies violence in pursuit of its expansion. Notwithstanding its warlike start, it did, for a time, develop an enlightened, albeit self-interested view towards Christians and Jews, "people of the book". It tolerated and in some cases fostered their existence, apparently to facilite the collection of various taxes associated with "dhimmitude". At one time, Islam's power and territorial reach was massive. Eventually, they were humbled, when the Christians understandably did not relish being overrun. From its high point in the 1400's and 1500's, Islam has become increasingly embittered by its mounting losses for minds, and on the battlefields.

Now, while they engage in repeat acts of wanton slaughter against the West, they want to present a sweet, beseeching face of a victim, much the way a schoolyard bully will reduce himself to tears before being upbraided by a teacher. Why? They know that actions such as the September 11 and London Subway attacks are intolerable, and don't wish to be visited with the consequence. Most of the world's ongoing wars in some way or another involve Islam, and/or a boundary between Islamic and other peoples. The Islamic world is almost uniformly characterized by grinding poverty and ignorance of its peoples, even while previously backwards peoples in places like South Korea, Japan, Singapore, and India levitate from primitive to prosperous. Israel makes the desert bloom, in the midst of repeated interruptions by wanton carnage perpetrated by its neighbors.

Countries like the US, Canada, and other countries have nothing in common with the 8th Century superstitutions and hatreds that govern radical Islam. Yet, going back to that Sunday New York Times or news radio broadcasts, a spurious equivalency is foisted on us. Examples are the patently ridiculous statement that Palestinians (basically, a sub-subset of Arabs from Egypt and Syria) have the same national rights as Hebrews, who have a culture unique enough to invite millenia of approprobrium, persecution, and slaughter, in spite of the overwhelming numbers of inventors, innovators and otherwise constructive people it has spawned. The Christians have a larger population. Their contributions to the good of humankind are legion. They have created a compassionate and beneficent world where they live, overall.

Can anyone point me to great historical accomplishments of Radical Islamists? Can anyone show me what they have created and built, what benefits they have bestowed on humankind?

Please, I'm waiting.

[DogOnPorch]

Unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam was consciously started during the 700's or 800's as a new religion by its founder, Mohamed.

600's actually...

Can anyone point me to great historical accomplishments of Radical Islamists? Can anyone show me what they have created and built, what benefits they have bestowed on humankind?

Please, I'm waiting.

cricket...cricket...cricket...

Ummm...well, they've perfected the suicide bomb.

----------------------------------------------

Television, the drug of the Nation

Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

---Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy

[jbg]

cricket...cricket...cricket...Ummm...well, they've perfected the suicide bomb.

You mean cricket (link) in that sense?

[Guthrie]

Would it be in order were I to correct a misrepresentation or two???

First off, no, no one set out to create a religion. Mohammed, felt sent to a society to bring a way to worship God and live according to God's law's. This is no different than Nuh, Ibrahim, Muse or 'Ise.

Second, taxes were collected from traders who crossed the land and used to improve wells and dig new ones, all to the benefit of the people.

So, these, "Islamic extremists," how do you differentiate between them and other Muslims?

Certainly, modern mathematics is still built on the work of Islamic scholars?

[jbg]

Second, taxes were collected from traders who crossed the land and used to improve wells and dig new ones, all to the benefit of the people.

I mean the "Gizya" (sp) or dhimmitude tax.

[DogOnPorch]

You mean cricket (link) in that sense?

Just a wee joke...so quiet that we can hear the crickets chirp...the olives hitting the side of the martini glass...the cat's whisker hitting the floor...etc etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

There should be only three states of national emergency: Jesus Christ!...Holy Sh*t!!!...and F*** Me!!!!!

---Lewis Black on Homeland Security

[jbg]

You mean cricket (link) in that sense?

Just a wee joke...so quiet that we can hear the crickets chirp...the olives hitting the side of the martini glass...the cat's whisker hitting the floor...etc etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

There should be only three states of national emergency: Jesus Christ!...Holy Sh*t!!!...and F*** Me!!!!!

---Lewis Black on Homeland Security

Not sure I get the joke, but OK. Maybe you can explain via PM.

[myata]

You mean, anything like crusades, extermination of native populations and two devastating world wars with millions of dead? Go study the subject and then enlighten us more.

[jbg]

You mean, anything like crusades, extermination of native populations and two devastating world wars with millions of dead? Go study the subject and then enlighten us more.

What subject, besides the insinuation that currently, there is an equivalence between Radical Islam (which has contributed nothing of value to the world) and the other two great monotheistic religions?

[myata]

Didn't you, like, start with Mohammed? Just comparing "contributions to civilizations", jbg. You must have forgotten of those, somehow.

[scribblet]

Great post JBJ:

Why is it when people talk about today's radical Islamists and make it clear that they are not referring to Muslims in general or the peaceful side of Islam, people try to make it appear that the references are to ALL muslims. It is not, radical Islamists today have accomplished nothing other than to make war and teach their kids to hate and kill themselves.

[myata]

The OP intermixes just Islam with "radical Islam" freely, depending on the author's thought of the moment. If we compare "contributions" of major religions, there's no way to ignore those unsavoury moments of our own making, so maybe before going into explorations of other peoples wrongdoings, we should cleen up our own mess first (and even more importantly, still, finally stop creating it?). If it's only "radical" part we need to talk about, why this pseudo historical and phylosphical context? There were (and are) many radical violent groups with no relation to Islam whatsoever, all should be treated in accordance with their deeds.

[Guthrie]

You mean, anything like crusades, extermination of native populations and two devastating world wars with millions of dead? Go study the subject and then enlighten us more.

What subject, besides the insinuation that currently, there is an equivalence between Radical Islam (which has contributed nothing of value to the world) and the other two great monotheistic religions?

am still waiting to hear about this, Radical Islam --- how is it any different than Radical Xtianity or Radical Judaism???

more to the point -- why do you compare, "Radical Islam," to "the other two great monotheistic religions?" That is, why are you attempting to substitute, "Radical Islam," for "Islam?" --- Radical anything should not be compared to, "other great monotheistic religions" --- as if it were in the same league

Radical Xtianity and Radical Judaism have contributed nothing of value to the world -- so why do you insult Islam with this type of vile deception ???

[ScottSA]

Excellent post jbg. Woody obviously hasn't read the Koran or anything about it or he'd know that Mohammed claims Allah told him to start a religion, which is what he thereby intentionally did. And he'd know that Jizyah is a religiously inspired tax on unbelievers and not a simple harmless "tax on traders", as he tries to make it sound. But then that's woody; when has he ever achieved over 50% correct in anything ever?

Not sure what Islamic contribution Myata's talking about...oh, wait...he's not talking about an Islamic contribution, he's trying to remind us that Christians defended themselves against Islam in the Crusades, and that as a result of an obviously superior social and economic structure, they spread over the globe. He lost me on the world wars though, I didn't realize WW I and WW II were religious wars...musta missed something in my read of 20th century history.

Scriblett: jbg IS talking about Islam. He's not talking about some imaginary "fringe" group. I can't speak for him, but the events and characteristics he's talking about are seminal aspects of Islam and not some side strain of doctrine. Islam has contributed nothing to humanity. Nothing, not even "Arabic" numerals. Islam developed while Christendom was immersed in the dark ages. 1000 years later Christianity had flowered through feudalism and was into the renaissance and reformation, and where was Islam? In the 7th century. Today, post christendom society spans the world and is the model that all other societies strive to emulate. Where is Islam? In the 7th century. In a 1000 years more, I wonder where Islam will be?

[myata]

Not sure what Islamic contribution Myata's talking about...oh, wait...he's not talking about an Islamic contribution, he's trying to remind us that Christians defended themselves ....

If crusades were "defence", then any war is. E.g Germany defending itself in WWI and II. Japan in Pearl Harbour; US in Vietnam - all nicest examples of "defence". Great analysis, Scott.

He lost me on the world wars though, I didn't realize WW I and WW II were religious wars...musta missed something in my read of 20th century history.

And by far not the only one, no doubt. Just as you missed that not just religious wars are bad. Wars of conquest are bad. Wars of domination too. Not to mention plain meaningless wars like WWI which tool millions of lives for no reason whatsoever.

Scriblett: jbg IS talking about Islam. He's not talking about some imaginary "fringe" group. I can't speak for him, but the events and characteristics he's talking about are seminal aspects of Islam and not some side strain of doctrine.

At last, an honest admission.

[AndrewL]

Every occasion I take the time to peruse the Sunday New York Times or turn on WCBS 880 News (New York City area) I am offended by the implicit and unspoken bias in favor of those trying to dismantle Western civilization, in the name of "tolerance", "self-determination" or "openness". Let me explain.

Over the centuries, many great civilizations have risen and fallen. Usually, the ones that have fallen have succumbed to outside, uncontrollable forces, such as climate change (i.e. the Mayans, whose demise was presumably due to forces that Kyoto could have controlled). The Romans were defeated by the Barbarians. Perhaps they overexpanded, perhaps their was a whiff of complacency to the "barbarians at the gate". I don't know. I'm not a student of Roman history.

Unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam was consciously started during the 700's or 800's as a new religion by its founder, Mohamed. Jesus did not set out to start a religion, nor did Abraham. The religion initially was spread at the point of a sword, and its ideology justifies violence in pursuit of its expansion. Notwithstanding its warlike start, it did, for a time, develop an enlightened, albeit self-interested view towards Christians and Jews, "people of the book". It tolerated and in some cases fostered their existence, apparently to facilite the collection of various taxes associated with "dhimmitude". At one time, Islam's power and territorial reach was massive. Eventually, they were humbled, when the Christians understandably did not relish being overrun. From its high point in the 1400's and 1500's, Islam has become increasingly embittered by its mounting losses for minds, and on the battlefields.

Now, while they engage in repeat acts of wanton slaughter against the West, they want to present a sweet, beseeching face of a victim, much the way a schoolyard bully will reduce himself to tears before being upbraided by a teacher. Why? They know that actions such as the September 11 and London Subway attacks are intolerable, and don't wish to be visited with the consequence. Most of the world's ongoing wars in some way or another involve Islam, and/or a boundary between Islamic and other peoples. The Islamic world is almost uniformly characterized by grinding poverty and ignorance of its peoples, even while previously backwards peoples in places like South Korea, Japan, Singapore, and India levitate from primitive to prosperous. Israel makes the desert bloom, in the midst of repeated interruptions by wanton carnage perpetrated by its neighbors.

Countries like the US, Canada, and other countries have nothing in common with the 8th Century superstitutions and hatreds that govern radical Islam. Yet, going back to that Sunday New York Times or news radio broadcasts, a spurious equivalency is foisted on us. Examples are the patently ridiculous statement that Palestinians (basically, a sub-subset of Arabs from Egypt and Syria) have the same national rights as Hebrews, who have a culture unique enough to invite millenia of approprobrium, persecution, and slaughter, in spite of the overwhelming numbers of inventors, innovators and otherwise constructive people it has spawned. The Christians have a larger population. Their contributions to the good of humankind are legion. They have created a compassionate and beneficent world where they live, overall.

Can anyone point me to great historical accomplishments of Radical Islamists? Can anyone show me what they have created and built, what benefits they have bestowed on humankind?

Please, I'm waiting.

I cant think of anything of any tremendous value that religion has brought to humans, let alone radical islam. All i see are obstacles to understanding, enlightenment, intellectual honesty, and above all, a genuine and effective sense of ethics and morals.

Lets take two thing that have different degrees of abject stupidity.

I think most people would agree that Christianity is not as violent and evil as it once was, but lets look at this vulgar waste of money and effort that was revealed by the catholic church recently:

A Vatican committee that spent years examining the medieval concept published a much-anticipated report Friday, concluding that unbaptized babies who die may go to heaven.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2007/04/23/254.html

How is this not the most ridiculous thing.... grown adults who spend years studying whether or not unbaptized babies can go to heaven??? WTF??? Do these people have nothing more important to do in a world ravaged bv poverty, war, disease, and environmental destruction??? Imagine if the energies of the church could be put towards important things rather than the fantasies of idiotic men.... This was front page news in my daily... what a disgrace to human intelligence and integrity. This is just catholics, what about the rapture movement in North america, or the genocidal form of christian orthodoxy found in the Balkans?

We could also look at an obscure kurdish religious sect called Yazidis. One of their women in Northern Iraq (Kurdistan) fell in love with a muslim man and converted to Islam. Her family members tracked her down, dragged her back home, and had her stoned to death. Yikes...

In response some radical islamicists on Saturday rounded up some 23 Yazidis from a bus travelling through the region, lined them up and executed them in revenge for the stoning of the convert.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2007...113439-sun.html

BASHIKA, Iraq -- Gunmen have killed 23 members of the Yazidi religious minority in an apparent revenge massacre in northern Iraq.

Witnesses say gunmen stopped a bus and separated out followers of other faiths, whose lives were spared.

Yazidis are a small group concentrated mostly around the northern city of Mosul, 360 km northwest of Baghdad.

They are primarily Kurdish, and worship an angel figure that some Muslims and Christians consider the devil.

A police official in Ninevah province, where Mosul is the capital, says the execution-style killings were in response to the killing two weeks ago of a Yazidi woman who had recently fallen in love with a Muslim man, then converted to Islam and ran off with him.

She was later kidnapped by relatives and stoned to death. A grainy video purporting to show her death has appeared on Iraqi web sites.

So yes, Radical Islam has brought nothing of value to the world. But i really have trouble seeing what any other religion has brought to the world except superstition and resistance to knowledge of the natural world and excuses for murder. Religion is a cancerous tumor on the human capacity for compassion, growth, understanding, and progress.

What do we do about it though?

Andrew

[GostHacked]

Scriblett: jbg IS talking about Islam. He's not talking about some imaginary "fringe" group. I can't speak for him, but the events and characteristics he's talking about are seminal aspects of Islam and not some side strain of doctrine. Islam has contributed nothing to humanity. Nothing, not even "Arabic" numerals.

Has any religion played a role in 'numerals' ??? Has Christianity or Catholicism drummed up any numbers for us as of late??? I pick on this for it is an ill thought process.

Radical 'insert religion here' is dangerous in any case. There are fundamentalists on all sides. And they are all just as violent. Some use armiies to invade, some use small tactical groups to invade.

Why is it when people talk about today's radical Islamists and make it clear that they are not referring to Muslims in general or the peaceful side of Islam, people try to make it appear that the references are to ALL muslims. It is not, radical Islamists today have accomplished nothing other than to make war and teach their kids to hate and kill themselves.

No one seems to talk about extreme fundamentalist Christianity.

[ScottSA]

No one seems to talk about extreme fundamentalist Christianity.

I wonder why that would be? Could it be because Fundamentalist Christians aren't blowing themselves up to the tune of 10 or so a day around the world? Hmmm...

[Charles Anthony]

We could also look at an obscure kurdish religious sect called Yazidis. One of their women in Northern Iraq (Kurdistan) fell in love with a muslim man and converted to Islam. Her family members tracked her down, dragged her back home, and had her stoned to death. Yikes...

In response some radical islamicists on Saturday rounded up some 23 Yazidis from a bus travelling through the region, lined them up and executed them in revenge for the stoning of the convert.

This is distressing. It clearly demonstrates that Muslims are not the only backwards people to stone people to death.

What is more important to me is recognizing that both Yazidis and Muslims were travelling together on the same bus.

What do we do about it though?

Nothing.

People will always be "religious" no matter what. You will never be able to change that. Most people have a blind devotion or obedience to something: pop music; fame; sports; the glorious almighty authority of The State; church; their job; whatever.

What you CAN do is simply deal with their actions and forget about what motivates their actions.

[AndrewL]

This is distressing. It clearly demonstrates that Muslims are not the only backwards people to stone people to death.

What is more important to me is recognizing that both Yazidis and Muslims were travelling together on the same bus.

Yes. I think there were also Christians on the bus as well.

Nothing.

People will always be "religious" no matter what. You will never be able to change that. Most people have a blind devotion or obedience to something: pop music; fame; sports; the glorious almighty authority of The State; church.

What you CAN do is simply deal with their actions and forget about what motivates their actions.

But pop music, sports, and patriotism rarely lead people to absolute views on the origin of the universe and the certainty of an afterlife. For me that is the crux of the problem. Such certainty in the afterlife cheapens the reality of the earthly life and makes the living and breathing dispensable. Mix that with the technology to cleanse the earth of humans altogether and we have a huge problem.

Andrew

[ScottSA]

So yes, Radical Islam has brought nothing of value to the world. But i really have trouble seeing what any other religion has brought to the world except superstition and resistance to knowledge of the natural world and excuses for murder. Religion is a cancerous tumor on the human capacity for compassion, growth, understanding, and progress.

What do we do about it though?

Andrew

Two things: First, it's not "radical Islam" under discussion; it's Islam.

Second, without the Church's preservation of Greco-Roman heritage through the dark ages, we would not be where we are today. Before someone jumps in with the riposte that Islam also preserved the same heritage, let me point out that Islam did not use that heritage in the way Christendom did, and in fact ended up discarding it.

But aside from the tradition of literacy the Church has given us, let's take a step back in time, before the renaissance and the birth of science as we know it. The western mind has not always been knee deep in rationalism. How and why did scientific enquiry become the dominant paradigm in the west? We can point to the printing press, but that isn't the reason; China had the technology centuries before and it went nowhere. We can point at all sorts of things, but the underlying ethos of enquiry came from questioning religion and the richness of that debate. Some parts of those early religious debates may seem trite in the hindsight of centuries, but they and they alone set the stage for the renaissance. Or, to use a more appropriate analogy, they prepared the fields for the seeds of rationalism. Technology in and of itself does not much unless it is exploited and improved upon, and the will to do so has to exist prior to the technology.

We are where we are in the west precisely because of the spirit of inquiry set loose during the reformation; a reformation neither Islam nor any other major religion has ever had. It is due entirely to our Judeo-Christian heritage that the west surpassed the east by several orders of magnitude in every sphere of existence..

[Figleaf]

Great post JBJ:

Why is it when people talk about today's radical Islamists and make it clear that they are not referring to Muslims in general or the peaceful side of Islam, people try to make it appear that the references are to ALL muslims.

Did JBG make that clear?

[AndrewL]

So yes, Radical Islam has brought nothing of value to the world. But i really have trouble seeing what any other religion has brought to the world except superstition and resistance to knowledge of the natural world and excuses for murder. Religion is a cancerous tumor on the human capacity for compassion, growth, understanding, and progress.

What do we do about it though?

Andrew

Two things: First, it's not "radical Islam" under discussion; it's Islam.

I view all religious belief as radical, since any religious belief requires a suspension of logic and a leap of faith, it can only be radical in regards to rationality.

Second, without the Church's preservation of Greco-Roman heritage through the dark ages, we would not be where we are today. Before someone jumps in with the riposte that Islam also preserved the same heritage, let me point out that Islam did not use that heritage in the way Christendom did, and in fact ended up discarding it.

And where exactly are we today? Sure, in many western nations we have a level of freedom that is mostly unprecedented in human history, and we have a medical science that is really quite a marvel. But from my view this is more a function of our understanding of the natural world, and in more modern times, our insistence on secular principles in government. Without science we have no medical and industrial revolution, and it is those things that put us where we are today more than anything. Im not claiming that the world should be governed by science as if it it is some great panacea for human betterment, but at the very least a scientific/agnostic predisposition towards the world and human spirituality is far superior to an insistence on ancient texts written by men who were very ignorant of things that are now relevant to us.

But lets say that at one time the Christian heritage did teach people compassion and love, education and tolerance. Great. I bow down and say thank you very much. But in the end that says nothing at all about the validity of the churchs claims to metaphysical knowledge. Besides, there are better reasons to be good and moral, better reasons to educate oneself, than for anything contained in the bible. God is dead, so to speak. And at this moment in history, the Christian church is at best benign, and at worst a self fulfilling prophecy for armageddon.

But aside from the tradition of literacy the Church has given us, let's take a step back in time, before the renaissance and the birth of science as we know it. The western mind has not always been knee deep in rationalism. How and why did scientific enquiry become the dominant paradigm in the west? We can point to the printing press, but that isn't the reason; China had the technology centuries before and it went nowhere. We can point at all sorts of things, but the underlying ethos of enquiry came from questioning religion and the richness of that debate. Some parts of those early religious debates may seem trite in the hindsight of centuries, but they and they alone set the stage for the renaissance. Or, to use a more appropriate analogy, they prepared the fields for the seeds of rationalism. Technology in and of itself does not much unless it is exploited and improved upon, and the will to do so has to exist prior to the technology.

Actually this is generally attributed to Persians and Arabs before the 12th century. The Christian west was a backwards and barbaric mess of brutality and infighting. The peoples of the ME were the center of rationality and science before islam brought the perversion (which also plagued christianity) that science was evil, and it has been downhill for the Arabs and Persians ever since.

And where did the Persians and Arabs get their knowledge of such things? Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, etc... These men were concerned with knowledge, logic, science, and rationality. and that is indeed where the heart of modern western civilization lies.

My point comes down to the Christianizing of the pagan roman empire and its love of high brow greek culture. This was a retarding moment in human development. Had the Roman empire been able to resist the christian movements, we might not have had to deal with millenia of human stupidity and superstition. There may have been a nice little continuum of greek philosophy and science without it being broken and perverted by the religions of Abraham... be it Islam, Christianity, or Judaism.

Your point that it was a debate over religion that fostered rationality is lost, since we need only have never confused the issue by introducing religion in the first place. We could have just continued the healthy and honest debate begun by the greeks. That is why religion to me is an obstacle, it represents a long and needless (often bloody and painful) mental block in the history of civilization.

We are where we are in the west precisely because of the spirit of inquiry set loose during the reformation; a reformation neither Islam nor any other major religion has ever had. It is due entirely to our Judeo-Christian heritage that the west surpassed the east by several orders of magnitude in every sphere of existence..

As above, our spirit of inquiry was set loose long before Abraham, and it was a result of such Abrahamic nonsense that our true spirit was stunted in favor of religion. Most people would actually credit the renaissance (not the reformation) for the modern outpouring of inquiry into nature and science. The reformation was more just a loosening of the grip of fundamentalism. Note that the word renaissance actually means re-birth. The reason this word is so important is because we were reborn as our classical ancestors from antiquity. We were now free to pursue, again, the mode of inquiry begun by Socrates. If only religion had not gotten in the way for 1500 years.

Andrew

[Guthrie]

... Woody obviously hasn't read the Koran or anything about it or ...

This is a lie. No surprise, tho, the guy has been upset with me ever since, after I showed up his failure to understand the meaning of the word 'hegemony,' he was permanently banned from another forum and he blamed me for it.

it's not "radical Islam" under discussion; it's Islam.

the thread title says Radical Islam --- if this thread is intended to attack Islam then it needs to be removed as bigotry

[Charles Anthony]

But pop music, sports, and patriotism rarely lead people to absolute views on the origin of the universe and the certainty of an afterlife. For me that is the crux of the problem. Such certainty in the afterlife cheapens the reality of the earthly life and makes the living and breathing dispensable.

How does "certainty in the afterlife" cheapen the reality of the earthly life or make the living dispensable?