Radical Islam is Wrecking the World - Or, Why Can't Anyone Tell th

[Rue]

Would it be in order were I to correct a misrepresentation or two???

First off, no, no one set out to create a religion..

Second, taxes were collected from traders who crossed the land...

So, these, "Islamic extremists," how do you differentiate between them and other Muslims?

Certainly, modern mathematics is still built on the work of Islamic scholars?

Excellent points you raised. It is precisely for these reasons I am reluctant to get into this kind of discussion which tends to generalize all Muslims or Islamic culture into one category. I don't like it when people do this with my people( Jews) and I don't know anyone who appreciates being generalized.

You no where I stand. I despise religious fundamentalism, political extremism, any kind of terrorism, but I do not believe any one religion or culture can depict itself without such extremists.

I do not think a peace can come about in the Middle East if we allow ourselves to get caught up in this kind of thought pattern.

Its easy for many Westerners to believe all Muslims are terrorists. But then it has also been easy for Muslims to believe all Westerners are Zionist infidel. The extremism on both sides is equally as ugly.

I think you raise a legitimate argument. When discussing radical fundamentalism, whether it be with Islam or any other religion we have to take care to make it clear what we mean so we do not slur all Muslims and turn it into anti-Arabism or anti-Islamicism or what-ever you want to call it.

[Rue]

Radical Islam seems to get all the attention because its human nature to pay attention to the negative. Not all Muslims are terrorists. In Canada Salim Mansur has been a Political Science Professor at University of Western Ontario and Toronto Sun columnist and has epitomized the Liberal Islam movement and has not been afraid to basically advocate a line of thought that I try to follow which is one that rejects Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism even though he is a Muslim. It is precisely because he is so courageous enough to fight terrorism by alleged Muslims in the name of their religion, that I will not and can not lump all Muslims as terrorists or the enemy. There is also Sarah Nasser another Canadian who has written in the Jerusalem Post and is a peaceful moderate. The Free Muslim Coalition may in my opinion have some questionable ideas how to achieve peace in Israel-Palestine but they are Muslims who have reached out to Jews and denounce violence and are trying their hardest to engage in peaceful dialogue. Nonie Darwish an Egyptian started www.arabsforisrael.com and I have engaged in written dialogue with her. There is Wafa Sultan, Salman Rushdie and Tashbih Sayyed as well. Not all Muslims are terrorists.

It may seem that Islamic terrorists and fundamentalists are in control but there are good moderate Muslims who do not want Israel wiped off the map anymore then the vast vast majority of Israelis and Jews do not want any more Palestinians dying.

Try this project on for size; www.seedsofpeace.org.

I detest Hamas, I detest the PLO, I detest Islamic Jihad, I detest Hezbollah, I detest the current regime in Iran, I detest Islamic fundamentalism but I do not hate Palestinians, do not hate Muslims, have no problems with their religion or their people. Its terrorists and extremists I hate and if they are Jewish or Christian or anything else, and they are terrorist and extremist, I detest them the same way and for the same reasons.

The solution is simple. Two states, side by side forming an economic coalition with Jordan. No terrorism. A second state in the Gaza and West Bank for Palestinians. Movement of peoples through-out the region since there would be no terrorism. If the terrorism could end, then the coalition could grow to take in Lebanon.

I doubt Syria or Lebanon at this point is ready for such a thing and I appreciate in the Arab world extremist fundamentalism seems to be at least in the West's opinion, dominating their culture. Maybe it is. Maybe the solution is to take the terror out of the West Bank and Gaza. If there is no conflict with Israel which serves as the fuel for the other conflicts, they can be dealt with.

The Sunni Muslim world does not necessarily embrace its own radical elements. Even its extremist Wahabis denounced Hezbollah's terrorist attacks. EVen some very fundamental orthodox conservative Muslim clerics have denounced terrorism. The original Muslim Brotherhood and then Islamic Association in the West Bank and Gaza denounced terrorism. Let's no forget that!

[Rue]

Islamic scholars are defined as what? Only males, since these radicals deem that female are little more than chattel and are not allowed to be educated?

And women in the western world were only given the right to vote only about 6 decades ago. There is still a mentality in many western cultures that the MAN is the MAN, and women are secondary. So if you think that Islam needs growing up, so does the rest of the world in order to help with the growing. It takes a long time for change in a society. Unless some outside force decides to say what is what. And well history shows us how that plays out.

So, the moral equivalency meme is stooping to these depths? Western civilization is no different from a civilization which bags it's female chattel and stones them to death for being raped because generations ago women didn't have the vote in the west? Are you serious?

The point is none of our cultures have histories we can be proud of, Jewish, Christian, Islam, what-ever. All our cultures have their histories of violence, sexism, racism. None of us are perfect.

If we are to encourage Muslims to take on peace instead of terrorism, we have to do so with respect. I will not be afraid of Muslims or their religion because terrorists claiming to represent their religion kill and maim people. I won't allow those terrorists prevent me from reaching out to Muslims. Not a chance.

[ScottSA]

Islamic scholars are defined as what? Only males, since these radicals deem that female are little more than chattel and are not allowed to be educated?

And women in the western world were only given the right to vote only about 6 decades ago. There is still a mentality in many western cultures that the MAN is the MAN, and women are secondary. So if you think that Islam needs growing up, so does the rest of the world in order to help with the growing. It takes a long time for change in a society. Unless some outside force decides to say what is what. And well history shows us how that plays out.

So, the moral equivalency meme is stooping to these depths? Western civilization is no different from a civilization which bags it's female chattel and stones them to death for being raped because generations ago women didn't have the vote in the west? Are you serious?

The point is none of our cultures have histories we can be proud of, Jewish, Christian, Islam, what-ever. All our cultures have their histories of violence, sexism, racism. None of us are perfect.

If we are to encourage Muslims to take on peace instead of terrorism, we have to do so with respect. I will not be afraid of Muslims or their religion because terrorists claiming to represent their religion kill and maim people. I won't allow those terrorists prevent me from reaching out to Muslims. Not a chance.

The functional point is that we are not talking about history, we are talking about the here and now. In the here and now, it is Islam that has to change, not the west. Unless of course you are prepared to discuss the virtues of wearing a bag with your wife, and suggesting that she not be raped lest she be stoned as well.

[M.Dancer]

The functional point is that we are not talking about history, we are talking about the here and now. In the here and now, it is Islam that has to change, not the west. Unless of course you are prepared to discuss the virtues of wearing a bag with your wife, and suggesting that she not be raped lest she be stoned as well.

And in the here and now we have to give space for voices like Canada's Irshad Manji and the countless modern muslims worldwide who are seeking ways to bringIslam, kicking and screaming into the late n19th century......

It doesn't help if we confirm to Manji's antagonists that the West really does want a Zionist-Crusader world Govt by acting like we do.

[Black Dog]

Y'know, I was just thinking to myself that MLW needs a thread on Islam.

In any case, it's always entertaining to hear about what an ignorant and primitive bunch the world's Mulsims are, moreso when coupled with the idea that these same barely-literate peasants are, somehow, some kind of existensial threat to western civilization.

[Argus]

and that is the other racist clap trap this thread draws

Why don't you learn what the term means before you throw it around in a desperate attempt to silence people you haven't got the intelligence to actually argue with?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Y'know, I was just thinking to myself that MLW needs a thread on Islam.

In any case, it's always entertaining to hear about what an ignorant and primitive bunch the world's Mulsims are, moreso when coupled with the idea that these same barely-literate peasants are, somehow, some kind of existensial threat to western civilization.

That's kind of the point, dude.

They skulk around and bully, kill, bomb and maim while the "advanced" west (read: liberal) argue willy nilly about the best method of appeasement and "tolerance".

Thank god for the USA that's all I can say.

[cybercoma]

Religious labelling is ruining the world. Shiites and Sunnis, the same people besides their rules about their sky fairy, killing one another. Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, the same people besides their rules about their sky fairy, were killing one another. Islam, Judaism, Christianity, blah blah blah....

These are worthless labels that tell you to get your morals from books filled with violence and oppression. Prove that God is real. Prove that one school of thought is TRUE. No one has done so yet, and I can't imagine it's going to happen anytime soon. Instead they demand faith. Belief without reason. Faith.

Radical Islam is simply attacking people with a different label than them. The labels are the problem because there is no justification for their use. Labelling children as being a member of a certain group before they can even understand that group's tenets is nothing more than child abuse. Teaching children to grow up thinking they're different from someone else because they don't believe in the same sky fairy. Ridiculous.

Violence won't end until we move away from irrational faith based thinking, that belittles how precious our lives are by promising an afterlife.

This is it kids. Love one another and make the most out of the here and now. Of all the factors that are necessary to produce life, of the thousands of possible combinations that could've occurred at conception, the ones who are here are the ones that made it. When it's over, it's over. So, take care of one another and cherish life. There isn't enough time to hate one another based on labels that assign idiotic beliefs.

[ScottSA]

This is it kids. Love one another and make the most out of the here and now. Of all the factors that are necessary to produce life, of the thousands of possible combinations that could've occurred at conception, the ones who are here are the ones that made it. When it's over, it's over. So, take care of one another and cherish life. There isn't enough time to hate one another based on labels that assign idiotic beliefs.

I take it this is an article of faith with you?

[moderateamericain]

Y'know, I was just thinking to myself that MLW needs a thread on Islam.

In any case, it's always entertaining to hear about what an ignorant and primitive bunch the world's Mulsims are, moreso when coupled with the idea that these same barely-literate peasants are, somehow, some kind of existensial threat to western civilization.

I cannot give a name to the quote but on CNN there was a Holocaust survivor speaking on the similarities between radical Islam and Nazi Germany. And the host asked him "If there was one thing you would like to pass along to people based on your experiences what would it be."

and this old man leans forward in his seat and gets this stern look and says "If someone says they are going to annihilate you, believe it."

I see a lot of tit for tat arguing about which culture contributed more to the world, or who killed more or who started what war. Heres the real question. Does it matter? The fact of the matter is that we are dealing with a portion of a culture who feel that the greatest achievement that they can earn in life is to die killing Infidels. I don't care if you are black, green, blue, yellow, Christan, Muslim, or Jew. If you have a large portion of your society that believes only death is the answer you have a serious problem. And yes for all there primitiveness they are still a threat.

The Romans probably did not see the Goths as a threat either.

[jbg]

In any case, it's always entertaining to hear about what an ignorant and primitive bunch the world's Mulsims are, moreso when coupled with the idea that these same barely-literate peasants are, somehow, some kind of existensial threat to western civilization.

You and Neville Chamberlain would have had some great discussions over tea and crumpets.

[Black Dog]

JBG

You and Neville Chamberlain would have had some great discussions over tea and crumpets.

Neville Chaberlain is dead, so I'm not sure what kind of discussions we could have. Of course, hypothetically, it would be very interesting to sit down with someone who played such a pivotal role in shaping the history of the globe.

But I don't see what the late Mr. Chamberlain has to do with this conversation. Stay on the subject, man!

Jerry Jerry Bo-Berry Bananafana Fo Ferry

They skulk around and bully, kill, bomb and maim while the "advanced" west (read: liberal) argue willy nilly about the best method of appeasement and "tolerance".

Save us from the skulkers!!!!!!

And again, with the appeasement. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Some other person:

I cannot give a name to the quote but on CNN there was a Holocaust survivor speaking on the similarities between radical Islam and Nazi Germany. And the host asked him "If there was one thing you would like to pass along to people based on your experiences what would it be."

and this old man leans forward in his seat and gets this stern look and says "If someone says they are going to annihilate you, believe it."

Uh huh. Right. The fact that the Islamic world is inferior in every respect to the west and thus has no ability to annihalate anyone (and, as so many have pointed out, can't even get its shit togethe rlong enough to stop fighting amongst itself) kinda puts their threats in a different category.

The fact of the matter is that we are dealing with a portion of a culture who feel that the greatest achievement that they can earn in life is to die killing Infidels. I don't care if you are black, green, blue, yellow, Christan, Muslim, or Jew. If you have a large portion of your society that believes only death is the answer you have a serious problem. And yes for all there primitiveness they are still a threat.

How. What kind of threat? What can they possibly do to us?

[M.Dancer]

And again, with the appeasement. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Inigo!

How. What kind of threat? What can they possibly do to us?

Fly airplanes into nuclear reactors, bomb busses, poison the food supply...the possibilities are endless....

[ScottSA]

Some other person:

I cannot give a name to the quote but on CNN there was a Holocaust survivor speaking on the similarities between radical Islam and Nazi Germany. And the host asked him "If there was one thing you would like to pass along to people based on your experiences what would it be."

and this old man leans forward in his seat and gets this stern look and says "If someone says they are going to annihilate you, believe it."

Uh huh. Right. The fact that the Islamic world is inferior in every respect to the west and thus has no ability to annihalate anyone (and, as so many have pointed out, can't even get its shit togethe rlong enough to stop fighting amongst itself) kinda puts their threats in a different category.

The fact of the matter is that we are dealing with a portion of a culture who feel that the greatest achievement that they can earn in life is to die killing Infidels. I don't care if you are black, green, blue, yellow, Christan, Muslim, or Jew. If you have a large portion of your society that believes only death is the answer you have a serious problem. And yes for all there primitiveness they are still a threat.

How. What kind of threat? What can they possibly do to us?

You are of course joking when you ask that question? We are living in the post 911 world, right? Or are you of the same mind as Polly, that 911 was the Black Hand or some shadowy Jewish bankers conspiracy? Not only have they already "DONE" to us, but they are emminently capable of doing much more, and probably will. Before you scoff, what would you have said to someone on 910, who told you that tomorrow both WTC buildings and the pentagon would be hit by airliners? Then ask yourself what would happen if those inferior Islamic folks got their grubby little fingers on some seriously nasty biological weapons. Nuclear pales in comparison to what bio could do.

[Rue]

ScottyyankeeimperialistrunningdogParisHiltonBigMacWinstoncigarettedude:

"The functional point is that we are not talking about history, we are talking about the here and now."

Absolutely. Every time we harp on the past it only entrenches resistance to change.

"In the here and now, it is Islam that has to change, not the west."

I personally think Liberal Muslims must challenge and change the fundamentalist terrorists who have taken over their religion and countries but I also believe, personally that our Western culture is f..cked in its own ways and needs changes as well.

"Unless of course you are prepared to discuss the virtues of wearing a bag with your wife, and suggesting that she not be raped lest she be stoned as well."

Myself I do not agree with or want anything to do with any fundamentalist religions. Can't stand ALL of them but no not for one second would I trade where I live today warts and all with the fundamentalist religious world of the Taliban or Hamas thank you very much.

[Rue]

ModerateyankeeimperialistrunningdogloverofJoeTorreBigMacinfidelParisHiltonlover:

"If you have a large portion of your society that believes only death is the answer you have a serious problem."

Bang on.

[Black Dog]

QUOTE(Black Dog @ Apr 26 2007, 12:21 PM)

How. What kind of threat? What can they possibly do to us?

Fly airplanes into nuclear reactors, bomb busses, poison the food supply...the possibilities are endless....

Given the ease with which these guys are suppossed to be able to pull these stunts off, it's remarkable that in the half a decade since 9-11, they've acheived nothing of the sort. What are they waiting for?

But suppose they are out there, biding their time? What, exactly, are we to do about them? I get the feeling some posters are ready to start building the ovens right now, but I wonder what realistic solutions are being brought forward.

You are of course joking when you ask that question? We are living in the post 911 world, right? Or are you of the same mind as Polly, that 911 was the Black Hand or some shadowy Jewish bankers conspiracy? Not only have they already "DONE" to us, but they are emminently capable of doing much more, and probably will. Before you scoff, what would you have said to someone on 910, who told you that tomorrow both WTC buildings and the pentagon would be hit by airliners? Then ask yourself what would happen if those inferior Islamic folks got their grubby little fingers on some seriously nasty biological weapons. Nuclear pales in comparison to what bio could do.

I'll try to stay out of any episodes of 24. Seriously.

[Guthrie]

the oddest part - the right wing nut cases don't even know which group is considered the biggest terrorist threat in America

they want to attack Muslims with their vile racism -- no, they aren't interested in reality

[sharkman]

the oddest part - the right wing nut cases don't even know which group is considered the biggest terrorist threat in America

they want to attack Muslims with their vile racism -- no, they aren't interested in reality

Well, how 'bout the right wing nut cases start with the group that was responsible for the LAST terrorist attack on American soil, or the biggest one, hhmmm?

[Guthrie]

the oddest part - the right wing nut cases don't even know which group is considered the biggest terrorist threat in America

they want to attack Muslims with their vile racism -- no, they aren't interested in reality

Well, how 'bout the right wing nut cases start with the group that was responsible for the LAST terrorist attack on American soil, or the biggest one, hhmmm?

That would have been fine by me.

Are you proposing to restart the thread and leave Muslims out of it?

[Alexandra]

Given the ease with which these guys are suppossed to be able to pull these stunts off, it's remarkable that in the half a decade since 9-11, they've acheived nothing of the sort. What are they waiting for?

Is this a serious question? If so, discounting the Islamist (al Queda/splinter groups) Spain, London, Bali, et al. bombings with significant losses of civilian life is also a remarkable achievement on the part of anyone advocating for the Islamists. Such as Blackdog.

Or, a selective memory?

[cybercoma]

Or we could advocate that people stop believing in superstition and start having a bit of reason.

[GostHacked]

Islamic scholars are defined as what? Only males, since these radicals deem that female are little more than chattel and are not allowed to be educated?

And women in the western world were only given the right to vote only about 6 decades ago. There is still a mentality in many western cultures that the MAN is the MAN, and women are secondary. So if you think that Islam needs growing up, so does the rest of the world in order to help with the growing. It takes a long time for change in a society. Unless some outside force decides to say what is what. And well history shows us how that plays out.

So, the moral equivalency meme is stooping to these depths? Western civilization is no different from a civilization which bags it's female chattel and stones them to death for being raped because generations ago women didn't have the vote in the west? Are you serious?

If we are to encourage Muslims to take on peace instead of terrorism, we have to do so with respect. I will not be afraid of Muslims or their religion because terrorists claiming to represent their religion kill and maim people. I won't allow those terrorists prevent me from reaching out to Muslims. Not a chance.

The functional point is that we are not talking about history, we are talking about the here and now. In the here and now, it is Islam that has to change, not the west. Unless of course you are prepared to discuss the virtues of wearing a bag with your wife, and suggesting that she not be raped lest she be stoned as well.

Dead serious. If you are perfect, then stone away. If you are not, sit down, shut up and pay attention. Western Civilizations cannot even agree on something like abortion. Is it wrong? Right? Why? Ect. Are we in the West more enlightened than the East?? Are Christians more enlightened than Jews? Catholics? Muslims? Hell no.

Christians burning witches in Salem. That kind of thing you know. History. Western civilization still has a corrupt really fucked up underbelly. But don't ever take that into account. Learn from History, or repeat it over and over and over and....

The point is none of our cultures have histories we can be proud of, Jewish, Christian, Islam, what-ever. All our cultures have their histories of violence, sexism, racism. None of us are perfect. I have not agreed on much with Rue, however this point she is 100% correct. The only way to confront this is to embrace the people who are affected by it. Help, but not force. Give them Advice and guideance, but do not tell them what needs to be done. Ask questions. Seek answers. Be not afraid of your fellow man/woman.

Religion in itself and it's concept are beneficial to a society, but it should not dictate a society. No one religion is right/correct more than another.

I will say again, Ignorance and Bigotry is wrecking the world. Get involved if you want to make a difference.

[cybercoma]

Religion in itself and it's concept are beneficial to a society, but it should not dictate a society. No one religion is right/correct more than another.

Why is religion beneficial to society? Religion is a set of unreasonable beliefs based on superstition that have resulted in the racism, sexism and violence you described in your post. The holy books that are supposed to be unquestionable and revered are filled with examples of these intolerable things. Furthermore, to say no one religion is correct more than another is wrong. Every religion by its own definition believes that all others are wrong. All people of faith believe they are following the truth. So, by definition if one is true, the rest must be wrong. Religions are completely incompatible with one another.

Religion does nothing more than stifle reason and promote superstitious beliefs. Morality is not dictated by religion as has been indicated by numerous studies. One needs only to find one atheist who has morals to disprove the theory that you need religion for morality.

It can be argued that religion provides comfort and answers to questions that science cannot answer, but are blatant lies and leaps of faith anymore comforting than simply being able to accept that we don't know some things? It is also very evident that religion has done more harm to society and humanity than the good that it supposedly provides.

We need to shed religious labels and learn to live our lives for the here and now. We need to value the life we have in this world and stop putting superstitious beliefs in an afterlife and invisible beings on a pedestal.

Only the religious devaluing of life in this world could make human beings want to end their life to end the lives of others. Only the religious devaluing of life could oppress women and homosexuals they way they're being abused around the world. We're all human beings and we're all in this thing together and until we shed religion, we won't truly be able to appreciate our lives for what they are; a short stint of consciousness for 70 or so years that we need to make the most of.