What does it mean to be Canadian?

[ToadBrother]

And the Nazi's were busy dominating the sciences, and making advances in all aspects of technology that the US could not even conceive of. The Nazi's also had zero unemployment, minimal crime, a very strong sense of community. Culturally, Germany was VASTLY, VASTLY richer then the United States at the time... Germany was making tremendous architectural leaps, just look at some of the work of the genius Albert Speer... and look at some of his maquettes,

(http://blog.miragestudio7.com/wp-content/uploads2/2007/07/albert_speer_dome_domed_hall_hitler_architect2.jpg)

Also read on what the Nazi's thought of "Entartete Musik und Kunst", they actually are sympathetic to the blacks, which where then treated as second class citizens and used as puppets to dance and prance at the pleasure of the White superclass.

again though... you just had to resort to Godwin's law for the umpteenth time Dancer, would it be too much to ask to have you switch it up a bit... it's getting played out...

You will note, of course, that the Allieds literally beat the living hell out of the Nazis. I mean they utterly and totally flattened most of the major cities, carved the country into pieces and waited decades before they even let reunify, minus territory that had historically been claimed by German princes, kings and electors for centuries.

The Nazis were a good example of how to futily waste massive amounts of resources on an impossible quest to create a European empire by force. Their lunacy was opposed by most of the top generals, who were drowned out by a cadre of people like Hitler and Goebbels, whose actual knowledge of key aspects of history and military strategies was on a level with your average Saturday morning cartoon character.

The Nazis brought their country to absolute ruin. Almost all their cultural edifices and ideas were heaps of smoking concrete by the time the Instruments of Surrender were signed. In fact, the only particular reason that the Nazis were even able to get as far as they did is because the Weimar Republic, which they so loathed, had managed to keep the old Prussian General Staff secretly going. Beyond that, if the Allieds had stomped on them in the Rhineland, Hitler would have been out of office before you could count to 8. The Nazis were only successful because of the ineptitude of Stalin and the unwillingness of the Brits, French and Americans to do anything.

And on a personal note, I just have to say that either you're a very clever troll, or one damned repugnant huma being.

[Machjo]

Just to be clear, I disagree with the vast majority of lictor's points, but this particular refutation is nonsense. You don't need multiple official or widely spoken languages in a nation to "access information". Information can be and is translated, can exist in non-lingual form, and also in general the vast majority of all knowledge that has been created by humankind over the ages is presently available in English. Furthermore, knowledge and information is not static, it is not a fixed commodity that has to be obtained from foreign nations because we have ran out of it here. Rather, knowledge and information is created, through the pursuit of science, philosophy, art, etc.

Do yo know other languages? I myself have accessed much valuable knowledge in languages other than English that is simply not available in English. Do you honestly think other countries will waste valuable taxpayers' money to translate all of their scientific and other documents into English? They translate only if they think translation could pay dividends somehow. And we translate only that which we are interested in translating. Had you known another language and were well read in it, you'd be well aware of just how insulated from foreign knowledge monolingual English-speakers really are. The idea that all foreign knowledge worthy of our attention is available in English is a common myth among monolingual English-speakers.

[Bonam]

Do yo know other languages?

I am a fluent speaker of four different languages, with English being the third of the four languages that I have learned.

I myself have accessed much valuable knowledge in languages other than English that is simply not available in English.

Care to provide some examples? I did say the majority, not all information, so certainly there might be some things not yet available in English, but certainly the majority is.

Do you honestly think other countries will waste valuable taxpayers' money to translate all of their scientific and other documents into English?

Scientific documents in almost all countries are produced in English to begin with, since English is the international language of science. Attend a science conference in China? Everything is in English. In Germany? Everything is in English. Same with just about everywhere else. There are a few notable exceptions, such as Russia.

They translate only if they think translation could pay dividends somehow. And we translate only that which we are interested in translating.

There are teams of people whose work focuses solely on the translation of texts from one language to another. Almost everything of note has already been translated, and ever more increasingly obscure texts are now being translated. Furthermore, as automated translation continues to improve, more and more of the world's information will be available in any language that a user wishes to access it in. Advanced translation algorithms that learn and improve dynamically with use and experience have already been developed, though are not yet in common use. Another decade or so and machine translation will be no worse than top quality human translation.

Had you known another language and were well read in it, you'd be well aware of just how insulated from foreign knowledge monolingual English-speakers really are.

Many monolingual speakers of any language are certainly insulated from foreign knowledge, just as are many multilingual individuals. This insulation is not due to the unavailability of information, but rather to a lack of desire to gain such knowledge.

By the way, props on the incorrect generalization and stereotype.

The idea that all foreign knowledge worthy of our attention is available in English is a common myth among monolingual English-speakers.

You have yet to provide an example to the contrary, although like I said, it is not yet "all" knowledge that is available in English, only the majority. In the near future, as machine translation becomes no worse than human translation, all knowledge will be instantly available in any language the user sees fit to access it in.

[Machjo]

I speak a few languages, and am fairly well-read in the field of linguistics. The following are just some of the documents available on-line that are simply not available in English, yet have been of considerable interest to me none-the-less:

Find the English translation for these if you will (in fact, both of these documents are translated, but not into English!):

http://cisad.adc.education.fr/hcee/documen...apport_Grin.pdf

http://wwwcs.uni-paderborn.de/extern/fb/2/.../loi/enhavo.htm

Also, we have:

http://ling.cuc.edu.cn/htliu/festlibro.htm

To take a few examples. If we leave the field of science and enter politics, popular culture, etc., the information becomes even less available.

[lictor616]

Are you sure you're not confusing homogeneity with unity? They are two different things. In fact, a pre- and co-requisite of unity is diversity. A homogeneous culture soon divides itself.

If a nation's memnbers are bilingual and bicultural, with at least one common language and culture among them, then the one common language and culture serves as the glue to bind the nation together, while the additional languages and cultures serve to access information from abroad so as to develop the nation.

If a nation is just plain homogeneous, it may be that it has the advantage of a common language and culture, but how can it develop. Sooner or later it would stagnate, with its members turning to neighbouring cultures to access new knowledge.

The notion that a nation only develops if it has immigrants that speak a different language and have a different culture is simply lunacy on stilts. I don't plan on pointing out the obvious inadequacies of such a delusion.

Having immigrants from different cultures is not the only way to "access information"... it isn't even the best way of unlocking knowledge.

Kudos for your fertile imagination for dreaming up this hogwash though...

[lictor616]

Do yo know other languages? I myself have accessed much valuable knowledge in languages other than English that is simply not available in English. Do you honestly think other countries will waste valuable taxpayers' money to translate all of their scientific and other documents into English? They translate only if they think translation could pay dividends somehow. And we translate only that which we are interested in translating. Had you known another language and were well read in it, you'd be well aware of just how insulated from foreign knowledge monolingual English-speakers really are. The idea that all foreign knowledge worthy of our attention is available in English is a common myth among monolingual English-speakers.

ahahahaahah!

[Machjo]

The notion that a nation only develops if it has immigrants that speak a different language and have a different culture is simply lunacy on stilts. I don't plan on pointing out the obvious inadequacies of such a delusion.

Having immigrants from different cultures is not the only way to "access information"... it isn't even the best way of unlocking knowledge.

Kudos for your fertile imagination for dreaming up this hogwash though...

Whose fertile imagination? Who brought up immirants? I wasn't even thinking immigrants here. You do realise, don't you, that Canada is not unique in having many languages in its borders? Look at China. Russian and Korean are Chinese languages too, along with Kazakh, Kirgiz, etc.

Japan has a minority Korean populaiton going back a couple generations too during the time of the Japanese occupation of Korea (when Koreans were considered Japanese citizens) Russia likewise has various groups within its borders. But when we look at more homogeneous cultures like Japan, notice how much more emphasis they place on learning a foreign language. Nothing to do with immigraiton. The idea had not even cross my mind in my last post.

[lictor616]

Whose fertile imagination? Who brought up immirants? I wasn't even thinking immigrants here. You do realise, don't you, that Canada is not unique in having many languages in its borders? Look at China. Russian and Korean are Chinese languages too, along with Kazakh, Kirgiz, etc.

Japan has a minority Korean populaiton going back a couple generations too during the time of the Japanese occupation of Korea (when Koreans were considered Japanese citizens) Russia likewise has various groups within its borders. But when we look at more homogeneous cultures like Japan, notice how much more emphasis they place on learning a foreign language. Nothing to do with immigraiton. The idea had not even cross my mind in my last post.

your point was that a country with many languages is the only to "progress" or to "access information"... that's simply false... sorry

[Machjo]

your point was that a country with many languages is the only to "progress" or to "access information"... that's simply false... sorry

It's necessary. Why do you think the Japanese Emperor had sent emissaries to study German, French, English? He saw they were industrialized and had knowledge Japan needed. Now look at Japan. Even the most homogeneous countries require their students to learn second languages. Why do you think?

Immigrants likewise can provide additional sources of knowledge, experiences, etc. to solve various problems, just as Canadians abroad can often offer their expertise to otehr nations too. It's reciprocal exchange of knowledge.

[Bonam]

I speak a few languages, and am fairly well-read in the field of linguistics. The following are just some of the documents available on-line that are simply not available in English, yet have been of considerable interest to me none-the-less:

Find the English translation for these if you will (in fact, both of these documents are translated, but not into English!):

http://cisad.adc.education.fr/hcee/documen...apport_Grin.pdf

http://wwwcs.uni-paderborn.de/extern/fb/2/.../loi/enhavo.htm

Also, we have:

http://ling.cuc.edu.cn/htliu/festlibro.htm

Great, you've found some examples (I didn't look very hard for translations). Still doesn't change the fact that these are in the minority, nor that they could be translated if desired, nor that in the near future instant and accurate machine translation will be available.

To take a few examples. If we leave the field of science and enter politics, popular culture, etc., the information becomes even less available.

Things like popular culture are transitory. Information about popular culture is lost even within the same language, rather than being retained. While some obscure copies of the information might exist somewhere, it is certainly not easily accessible to the public. Information of this nature is not particularly highly valued, and passes out of the realm of humankind's accumulated knowledge at a rapid rate.

It's necessary. Why do you think the Japanese Emperor had sent emissaries to study German, French, English? He saw they were industrialized and had knowledge Japan needed. Now look at Japan.

That was in a different time. In that time period, Japan was behind in development compared to the mentioned European nations, and learning their ways was of pivotal importance to modernize the country. Translations of those sources into Japanese were not available, and the only way they could be made available was if Japanese learned those languages and made the translations.

Nowadays, the world is heading towards a homogeneity of language, as English becomes the standard in more and more fields in more and more nations. It's about time too, the world has for too long been divided by language barriers. Past attempts to bridge that barrier, such as Esperanto, have failed, but English seems to be slowly accomplishing this goal.

Even the most homogeneous countries require their students to learn second languages. Why do you think?

Well, learning more languages enhances one's understanding and command of language in general. All of the best English speakers I have personally known knew more than just one language. Knowing multiple European languages, for example, grants one an insight into their common origins and similarities, as well as their differences. It sheds a light on the mechanics of grammar and the etymology of vocabulary that a speaker of just one language almost invariably lacks. Of course, learning second languages is also beneficial for communicating directly with speakers of those languages. There are many benefits to learning additional languages. But on the national scale, in the 21st century, having a population of a widespread base of languages is absolutely not necessary to access information. There may be significant advantages to diversity, but the ability to access information is not one of them.

[benny]

And its world wars.

infamous

[tango]

The notion that a nation only develops if it has immigrants that speak a different language and have a different culture is simply lunacy on stilts. I don't plan on pointing out the obvious inadequacies of such a delusion.

Having immigrants from different cultures is not the only way to "access information"... it isn't even the best way of unlocking knowledge.

Kudos for your fertile imagination for dreaming up this hogwash though...

So ... where are you planning on planting your white nation lictor?

[benny]

Having immigrants from different cultures is not the only way to "access information"... it isn't even the best way of unlocking knowledge.

Sheltering dissidents is the only, if not the best way to "unlocking" the most important type of information called intelligence or secret information.

[GostHacked]

This plan has absolutely nothing to do with the environment. It is a profit generating campaign. No more, no less. If they actually cared about the environment they would replace the plastic with the old paper bags. They have not done so. None of them have. Instead they're selling thicker, heavier plastic bags.

Those thicker heavier bags are reusable. Even the so called disposable ones. Or do you just toss them out afterwards? Well the other thing is to be proactive and take initiative. I have several of the reusable bags. I have been using them for over a year now and they are fantastic. One way to get back at them for the nickle bags, is to buy a couple of the other bags at a dollar. Soon enough you are saving money. And these bags are much better, and hold more and last a few years.

You have options, use them.

Lictor

The notion that a nation only develops if it has immigrants that speak a different language and have a different culture is simply lunacy on stilts. I don't plan on pointing out the obvious inadequacies of such a delusion.

We learn and grow when we are exposed to something new. This is not delusion, but a simple fact of the Human Experience. I recently travelled to Vancouver where there is a huge asian population. My two pals I hung out with are french/english, the other people we hung out with that week were jap/eng korean/eng, ect ect .. even the german guy dating the korean girl could speak german, english AND some korean.

Here is proof of the monolinguistic disatvantage. I was the only one among them that spoke English as a primary and only language. I did feel quite left out of most conversations because they were not in english, but I sat there listening intently because I like to hear other languages and check body language at the same time. You can learn a lot from that alone. At this point I am at a huge disatvantage. And I am still in my country of Origin. But shit dude this country is huge, 2nd largest on the planet. There is going to be some difference in the english language which is used coast to coast, but different dialects. Are you going to bitch and say we all should speak the same dialect of english as well?? Do you realize how freakin boring that would be? I actually want to move to Vancouver and experience more of what I saw and heard and tasted.

Also, you can't beat good sake, or sojo. Kimchi is very very tastey. I really did not want to say annyeong (almost like onion with a silent n) to the girls at the end of the night, but their eyes just light up when you make the attempt

I also have found I really like Asahi and Soporo. Great japenese beers. And I am of german descent. Germans make great beers, but there are many other peoples that make great tasting beer as well.

Variety is the spice of life right?

(edited for spelling grammer)

Edited July 15, 2009 by GostHacked

[benny]

We learn and grow when we are exposed to something new. This is not delusion, but a simple fact of the Human Experience. I recently travelled to Vancouver where there is a huge asian population. My two pals I hung out with are french/english, the other people we hung out with that week were jap/eng korean/eng, ect ect .. even the german guy dating the korean girl could speak german, english AND some korean.

Here is proof of the monolinguistic disatvantage. I was the only one among them that spoke English as a primary and only language. I did feel quite left out of most conversations because they were not in english, but I sat there listening intently because I like to hear other languages and check body language at the same time. You can learn a lot from that alone. At this point I am at a huge disatvantage. And I am still in my country of Origin. But shit dude this country is huge, 2nd largest on the planet. There is going to be some difference in the english language which is used coast to coast, but different dialects. Are you going to bitch and say we all should speak the same dialect of english as well?? Do you realize how freakin boring that would be? I actually want to move to Vancouver and experience more of what I saw and heard and tasted.

Also, you can't beat good sake, or sojo. Kimchi is very very tastey. I really did not want to say annyeong (almost like onion with a silent n) to the girls at the end of the night, but their eyes just light up when you make the attempt

I also have found I really like Asahi and Soporo. Great japenese beers. And I am of german descent. Germans make great beers, but there are many other peoples that make great tasting beer as well.

Variety is the spice of life right?

(edited for spelling grammer)

Tourism and immigration should be distinguished though because one can replace the other.

[GostHacked]

Tourism and immigration should be distinguished though because one can replace the other.

Thanks for missing the entire point of the post. And eventhough I have you on ignore, I click now and then to see what fantastic one liners you can come up with, without saying anything at all.

Yes they should learn english, and yes we should learn other languages. I am fluent in C++ and Javascript myself.

[benny]

Thanks for missing the entire point of the post. And eventhough I have you on ignore, I click now and then to see what fantastic one liners you can come up with, without saying anything at all.

Yes they should learn english, and yes we should learn other languages. I am fluent in C++ and Javascript myself.

learn hospitality

[Machjo]

learn hospitality

He not = need learn hospitality.

You = learn C++.

2009-17-15 C scale hot. I = need CO2.

Good bye.

[jbg]

learn hospitality

What does it mean to be a Canadian? I am curious to hear your responses on this debate.

To return to the opening post topic, rather than the personal insults others hurl around:

Proud To Be Canadian lyrics

(link)

Our fair country Canada is north of the USA

Our Maritimes are lovely and our prairies give us hay

You might think you Yankees are better than us Canucks

But we don't need no microchips inside our hockey pucks

We know that you have Disney world and you keep it veryclean

But we don't have Bob Dole and we can drink when we'renineteen

We might watch your TV shows for hours and hours and hours

We'll give you Alan Thicke, but Shania Twain is ours

CHORUS

We're proud to be Canadian

We're awfully nice to strangers, our manners be our curse

It's cool in many ways to be Canadian

We won't say that we're better, it's just that we're less worse

Your beer is not to tasty but you weather can't be beat

We all fly south in the wintertime to escape the snow and sleet

We're pleased to say we've enjoyed all your southerncharms

But we get sunburnt we exercise the right to bear our arms

CHORUSAlanis Morissette sheis our latest pride andjoy

She used to dingabout high schooldances and chasin'after boys

Now she's fed upand about as angryas can be

She's got one hand inher pocket and theother's in gaurd forthee

CHORUS X2

Edited July 16, 2009 by jbg

[benny]

Proud To Be Canadian

What is shameful about too much Canadians is their tendency to be proud to be lucky.

[GostHacked]

What is shameful about too much Canadians is their tendency to be proud to be lucky.

Why would one not be proud of being lucky? If you are lucky, run with it, and be proud of it. Also when it comes to hospitality, I have travelled so much for work to know what good hospitality really is.

Benny, it is more than a one liner, that is for sure.

[benny]

Why would one not be proud of being lucky? If you are lucky, run with it, and be proud of it.

By definition, a proud person doesn't run.

[GostHacked]

By definition, a proud person doesn't run.

Why do you have to be an idiot? You know the meaning of what was said. Why do you continue to be an idiot with the one liners? Seriously. Contribute or gtfo.

[stranger little]

I think we've defined ourselves as tolerant of different cultures. Seems like something Canada would be proud of. Abandoned Commonwealths always have identity issues. Like the middle child.

[benny]

Why do you have to be an idiot? You know the meaning of what was said. Why do you continue to be an idiot with the one liners? Seriously. Contribute or gtfo.

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