Stephane Dion's deal with Elizabeth May in Nova Central

[Michael Bluth]

Then I'll assume no Tory or NDP candidates will run against Dion, no Liberals, NDP, or Green candidates against Harper, and so on. This isn't a by-election, we're talking about a general election, if they wanted May in parliament they shouldn't have run a candidate against her in London.

Ahhh, there is the rub.

The by-election in London North Centre was a race the Liberals expected to, and did, win. No time for principles when there's a riding to be won.

It's very easy for Dion to be principled in a riding the Liberals lost by 15 points in 2006 and have won once in the past 12 races.

[Canadian Blue]

It was a backroom deal, their is no doubt about that. Unless all of those telephone conversations were in front of cameras. When I was a member of the board with the CA, I would personally have an issue with the leader telling us we couldn't run a candidate and instead be forced to support a party and a candidate we may disagree with.

I believe Jack Layton did comment on Dion's environmental record, it was on the CTV video on the website.

[gc1765]

I would personally have an issue with the leader telling us we couldn't run a candidate and instead be forced to support a party and a candidate we may disagree with.

Of course you can still run a candidate...the ONLY difference is that candidate would be labeled "independent" instead of "Liberal".

I believe Jack Layton did comment on Dion's environmental record, it was on the CTV video on the website.

I didn't see that part, but I don't take issue with Layton insulting Dion's environmental record...

[jbg]

"Dion, who shares May's environmental idealism, is expected to make the announcement today at a joint news conference with May in Central Nova. In return, sources say May will promise not to run a Green candidate against the Liberal leader and will essentially endorse Dion for prime minister."

So May is telling her supporters that Dion should be PM?

If she is telling people to vote for the Liberals why doesn't she run as a Liberal? I don't get it.

And Dion's "environmental idealism"? Give me a break.

[JMH]

It's low rent politics' that serve to circumvent the already laughable version of democracy that the people of Canada have allowed to occur; quiet happily as it would seem.

[gc1765]

It's low rent politics' that serve to circumvent the already laughable version of democracy...

How so?

[August1991]

It's low rent politics' that serve to circumvent the already laughable version of democracy that the people of Canada have allowed to occur; quiet happily as it would seem.

Low rent politics?

What did Harper do when he accepted Emerson?

Or what did Harper do when he appointed Fortier to the Senat, and then Cabinet?

---

Dion's version of "low-rent" politics has some vision. The Liberal Party will stand for the environment, and growth and fairness.

Stephen Harper is a johnny-come-lately to the environment. And frankly, I don't know what Stephen Harper stands for any more.

Tell me. What does Stephen Harper stand for?

[betsy]

Mike Duffy read some names (these people apparently e-mailed Duffy), one being a prominent supporter from Toronto.

I'd like to see some of those names. I can't find information anywhere on it.

Okay, I watched the tape again (but only the portion on strategists debating)....MDuffy specifically mentioned the name of Ray Heard from Toronto, former Director of Communications for Turner quoting parts of the statement. Check out MDuffy Live on ctv site....you can choose various segments from the show yesterday.

On the very same segment, strategist Tim Power mentioned names of Liberals from Nova Scotia and one from the Green Party who were quoted as being against this arrangement.

Btw, Broadbent mentioned the name of the NDP guy Elizabeth May called several times over the last few weeks, trying to make an arrangement to defeat Harper: Stephen Lewis.

[betsy]

Seriously though, someone please explain to me how this is undemocratic.

Democracy:

Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

A political or social unit that has such a government.

The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.

Majority rule.

The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

How can those who have liberal values have a choice to have their values represented if they are denied a representative to elect? The party members from both the Green and Liberal had even been denied the right to decide if they wish to go this lenght of May and Dion ganging up on McKay! Just to gang up on Mckay! Isn't that quite a petty reason to deny your people the chance to get representation? To throw away principles?

Boy, it doesn't take much for the two leaders to throw away principles, does it? All it takes is one McKay!

Two cowardly leaders joining together to bully one! That's what it looks like! And that's what it is actually.

If this kind of politics becomes acceptable....what stops others from freely making deals without the consent....or even the knowledge of their party members! Even if it means making an alliance with a party that doesn't share your belief. Getting hoodwinked by your own leader, who hadn't even made it to the top yet! What more if he was sitting in power?

What's the point of being a member to a party???

Why bother having an election then, if the people's voice do not count at all!

MDuffy mentioned about a deal with Joe Clark and another Liberal guy....but he was quick to say the difference with this from that, the Conservatives and the Liberals still ran candidates representing their parties in the respective ridings, but both just didn't make any serious efforts at campaigning! There was still the choice!

[betsy]

I didn't see that part, but I don't take issue with Layton insulting Dion's environmental record...

Both Baird and Broadbent dismissed May, who suddenly is being so understanding and sympathetic to Dion's effort to do something with the environment during his tenure. May's defense of Dion comes across as some sort of boot-licking to me.

Unbelievable! I feel for the Green members....imagine watching your leader grovelling to please her supposed opponent....boy, imagine what she'll do to negotiate with the Taliban. (Lol)

Ignatieff was the one who said Dion had not done the job. Layton must've just been repeating what Ignatieff had said about Dion's environmental record.

[betsy]

Dion's version of "low-rent" politics has some vision. The Liberal Party will stand for the environment, and growth and fairness.

Stephen Harper is a johnny-come-lately to the environment. And frankly, I don't know what Stephen Harper stands for any more.

Tell me. What does Stephen Harper stand for?

Whatever or however we view someone....the people should still have a voice.

It would've been different if Dion and May had been transparent to both their respective party members and brought the idea to the table.

Disappointment would be the mildest emotion I'd feel towards my leader if my party (Conservatives) had gone ahead with the Alliance (even though we practically share most conservative views) without informing us members and giving us a chance to have a say in the matter.

It's the members of both the Liberals and the Green who got screwed by these leaders.

[betsy]

Okay, so Dion got with May because she's seen as the guru of environment.

What I don't get is this: If May is praising Dion for his environmental involvement....and Dion's own deputy leader Ignatieff was saying Dion DID NOT GET THE JOB DONE as an environmental minister....what does that say of May's credentials as the "guru" of enivronment?

She doesn't know a thing! Tis true then, she's just full of hot air!

[Figleaf]

I suppose this is all legal but what does it say for the democratic process by both Dion and May ?

Suppose? What could possibly be even remotely not legal about it? And what do you think it says about the democratic process?

Frankly, I don't get your comment at all.

[Figleaf]

MDuffy also said that some prominent Liberal supporters are calling for an open revolt against Dion.

Will hopeful Liberal contenders take advantage of this situation to get rid of Dion?

I haven't heard anything about prominent Liberals speaking out. Sounds like the prominent Tories who were speaking out prior to the last election on Harper. They turned out to be puffs of smoke once Harper won.

Of course jdobbin hasn't heard anything. It's easy to turn a deaf ear to news you don't want to hear.

You are right Betsy. Warren Kinsella is definitely one prominent Liberal who has spoken out against this move. Link.

Anybody want to add more?

1. Warren Kinsella is no longer a prominent Liberal. He's now a fringe hack.

2. As happens suspiciously often, Ricki, your link goes nowhere.

3. Reading this thread I have yet to see any explanation of why this move will hurt the Liberals. The Libs weren't going to beat Mackay, but and now they get Green credibility at zero cost. I'd like to hear someone express what they think is the downside there.

[Figleaf]

Okay, so Dion got with May because she's seen as the guru of environment.

What I don't get is this: If May is praising Dion for his environmental involvement....and Dion's own deputy leader Ignatieff was saying Dion DID NOT GET THE JOB DONE as an environmental minister....what does that say of May's credentials as the "guru" of enivronment?

She doesn't know a thing! Tis true then, she's just full of hot air!

C'mon Betsy, you don't believe that everything Ignatieff says is gospel, do you?

Anyway, it's a big job and if someone 'didn't get it done' that hardly means they won't try.

[scribblet]

Frankly, I don't get your comment at all.

Because it is denying voters a choice and subverting the process. If I were a Liberal I would be upset that I couldn't vote for an actual Liberal candidate, who would I vote for. If I were a liberal in that position I would probably vote NDP. Even Duffy says he's never seen anything like it before, and Monte Solberg has it right when he said "It's telling when the first election-related move of the Liberal leader is to concede defeat."

What happens to the riding association war chest, will it go to fund May, or back to Liberal HO, or kept until the next election.

http://www.wernerpatels.com/

The latest deal between Elizabeth May and the Liberals is disappointing news for the voters of Central Nova, Jack Layton said today. The NDP leader said Stéphane Dion and Ms. May have decided to deny ordinary Canadians the fair range of choice available to voters everywhere else in the country.

“This is the kind of backroom wheeling and dealing that ordinary Canadians are fed up with. When the Liberal Party was in power, they generated a lot of cynicism about Canadian politics with their behind-closed-doors ways. It seems not much has changed under their new leader,” said Layton.

Over a month ago, senior New Democrats, including Stephen Lewis, were approached by Ms. May to help broker a backroom deal to not run candidates against one another in certain ridings. Lewis rejected the notion outright.

[BubberMiley]

I think it's very democratic of the Libs to make room for the leader of a party that has difficulty getting representation in parliament despite the fact that it has around 10+% support in the country. Deals like this actually improve democracy because it makes up for deficiences from our lack of proportional representation.

Perhaps Mackay should step aside too.

[jdobbin]

Okay, I watched the tape again (but only the portion on strategists debating)....MDuffy specifically mentioned the name of Ray Heard from Toronto, former Director of Communications for Turner quoting parts of the statement. Check out MDuffy Live on ctv site....you can choose various segments from the show yesterday.

On the very same segment, strategist Tim Power mentioned names of Liberals from Nova Scotia and one from the Green Party who were quoted as being against this arrangement.

Btw, Broadbent mentioned the name of the NDP guy Elizabeth May called several times over the last few weeks, trying to make an arrangement to defeat Harper: Stephen Lewis.

Sorry, I just watched the segments and didn't see anything except May mention prominent Liberals of the riding supporting Dion's decision. Didn't see anything on Heard at all.

May admitted that she spoke to the NDP.

[Fat Freddie]

Was it good politics and a good deal? Or stupid and a turn into a voter loss at the next election?

Very much bad politics. CBC and CTV did spot interviews with people from the riding. One thing became very clear to me. Peter is a home town boy and E. May is a slut lciking boots for votes. Who do you think is going to win; even with the pact with the liberals. Even the liberals see this as sham politics. Which isn't surprising since the adscam.

Afghanistan may bury the CPC before 09

Highly unlikely when you have mothers on the 6 o'clock news after hearing of their son's death talking about the importance of getting the job done over there and how proud they are for their son's duty. I know some Liberals here want it to be a bad PR thing, but in reality its has actually brought this country together in a way we haven't seen since WW-2. There are plenty of past liberals lie myself that disagreed with Iraq, but support Afghanistan.

Hmmmm, I think this is less shaddy and more democratic than the takeover of the PC's. With MacKay selling them out to the Alliance, I mean nothing much more than that could be less democratic in Canadian politics.

I see absolutely no benefit in this to the CPC at all.

I never agreed with the way the Alliance took over, but lets get real. You have a leader who has shown himself capable and able to reach out to all Canadians. Then you have Dion who has fractured the party and appears to me unable to bring the people together unless they are all from my home province of Ontario. Since the population is moving west, I think having Dion in government making decisions is a huge mistake. You are however welcomed to your opinion, but I disagree. Dion is not the man, or woman, for the job.

It's low rent politics' that serve to circumvent the already laughable version of democracy that the people of Canada have allowed to occur; quiet happily as it would seem.

All this does is add fuel to the West's urging to go independent from Canada. Not sure if people have noticed, but the West has been making deals with all the US States along the west coast of North America. They have more of an ability to seperate than Quebec since they have resources and the only access to the Pacific. The merging of the two has indeed brought a not so funny laughability to politics, but I expected something like that from Dion. I never liked him and never will. Martin was a far better leader than any of them since Pearson.

Okay, so Dion got with May because she's seen as the guru of environment.

What I don't get is this: If May is praising Dion for his environmental involvement....and Dion's own deputy leader Ignatieff was saying Dion DID NOT GET THE JOB DONE as an environmental minister....what does that say of May's credentials as the "guru" of enivronment?

She doesn't know a thing! Tis true then, she's just full of hot air!

The merging of the two wasn't required to see that both are full of "hot air". The Liberal Party is split worse than before and the green's simply don't rate. Both these clowns should join the circus and leave real politics to real politicians. I look forward to the next leadership race for the Liberals as I think young Trudeau can do a great job of bring the party back to its real roots and making this country a great place. Until then I'll spend my vote on Harper as he actually speaks English and knows about how to "get the job done".

[jdobbin]

Because it is denying voters a choice and subverting the process. If I were a Liberal I would be upset that I couldn't vote for an actual Liberal candidate, who would I vote for. If I were a liberal in that position I would probably vote NDP. Even Duffy says he's never seen anything like it before, and Monte Solberg has it right when he said "It's telling when the first election-related move of the Liberal leader is to concede defeat."

Over a month ago, senior New Democrats, including Stephen Lewis, were approached by Ms. May to help broker a backroom deal to not run candidates against one another in certain ridings. Lewis rejected the notion outright.

Seems the local Liberals there have been supportive of Dion. Just as local Liberals were supportive of not running a candidate against Stockwell Day when he ran in a bye-election.

The NDP not supporting this type of decision is probably one of the main reasons they have lost the backing of the Canadian Auto Workers union.

[jdobbin]

1. Warren Kinsella is no longer a prominent Liberal. He's now a fringe hack.

2. As happens suspiciously often, Ricki, your link goes nowhere.

3. Reading this thread I have yet to see any explanation of why this move will hurt the Liberals. The Libs weren't going to beat Mackay, but and now they get Green credibility at zero cost. I'd like to hear someone express what they think is the downside there.

I see Kinsella as a journalist now. I don't see him as a Liberal insider.

[BubberMiley]

E. May is a slut lciking boots for votes.

Sounds like the CPC have already sent out their talking points on this issue.

[jdobbin]

E. May is a slut lciking boots for votes.

Sounds like the CPC have already sent out their talking points on this issue.

You think that Peter Mackay helped write the message?

[Figleaf]

Frankly, I don't get your comment at all.

Because it is denying voters a choice and subverting the process. If I were a Liberal I would be upset that I couldn't vote for an actual Liberal candidate, who would I vote for. If I were a liberal in that position I would probably vote NDP. Even Duffy says he's never seen anything like it before, and Monte Solberg has it right when he said "It's telling when the first election-related move of the Liberal leader is to concede defeat."

What happens to the riding association war chest, will it go to fund May, or back to Liberal HO, or kept until the next election.

http://www.wernerpatels.com/

The latest deal between Elizabeth May and the Liberals is disappointing news for the voters of Central Nova, Jack Layton said today. The NDP leader said Stéphane Dion and Ms. May have decided to deny ordinary Canadians the fair range of choice available to voters everywhere else in the country.

“This is the kind of backroom wheeling and dealing that ordinary Canadians are fed up with. When the Liberal Party was in power, they generated a lot of cynicism about Canadian politics with their behind-closed-doors ways. It seems not much has changed under their new leader,” said Layton.

Over a month ago, senior New Democrats, including Stephen Lewis, were approached by Ms. May to help broker a backroom deal to not run candidates against one another in certain ridings. Lewis rejected the notion outright.

Hm. Well that's an interesting take on it.

[blueblood]

Dion had an advantage over Harper walking into Ottawa, He's leader of a very popular centrist party. He's been handed popular support on a plate, what does he do, he squanders it?

Harper on the other hand had to work his tail off to shed this scary scary image. Sure the libs had sponsorship, but I'd take that over being a scary radical right wing facist party (according to a sizable portion of urban voters) Harper and co. will spin this very well, hell the NDP is spinning this well too.

That's a good comparison. Harper confronting the *scary, scary* against Dion dealing with Adscam. Neither Dion nor Harper have much mojo - they're both policy wonks. All things considered, Dion is sexier. He's thinner and less vain - Dion wears his glasses in public.

But reading through this thread (and why do we have two threads - this one was started first), all that I can find are smarmy, whining complaints. Tories are bad losers, and bad winners.

----

If you don't think the environment will be a major issue in the future, then you don't understand economics, ecology or Canadian politics. On a simple level, let me try this argument: as people get richer, they are cleaner. Canadians are rich.

IOW, Dion is on the right side of this issue (and Harper knows this too because he replaced Ambrose with Baird). Quibble as the posters on this thread choose, dems da simple facts.

As to Dion's integrity, there's an old tradition of stepping aside to let a party leader win a by-election. And where was Harper's integrity in making Fortier a cabinet minister or accepting Emerson across the floor?

On the whole, I think Dion will better Harper on the broad strokes of the future. Dion is a better thinker. We have yet to see Harper appeal to people's better angels.

Canadians should take pride: they have created such a society where such men of diverse origin debate in for Canadian votes. Harper may well win more votes in Quebec than Dion. And Dion more votes in Ontario than Harper.

The thing is both you and I know that Canada isn't as rich as it could/should be, we don't have as much money as we're letting on, and I think that is flat out dangerous. There's cleaning up after ourselves and there's crippling the economy, I think Dion will cripple the economy to do it (Carbon tax, NEPII), I think Harper has a smart plan in the clean air act in itself (actually reading it, it is very fair).

I think some of Harper's moves have been shady too, and I don't agree with them the same as Dion's.

call me Polynewbie but I'm still dead convinced this is a plot by Kennedy to overhaul the party and take it back to the centre. The real clash will be in about 8-10 yrs. after Harper gets his majority mandate and goes into yet another election.