Adel Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional... Let us assume a scenario and think about it for a while... This very accurate universe has a creator who created it on purpose and takes care of it all the time... He chose to make his actions very simple so that his creatures - who would be created later - can understand them. He did not have to create in any specific way because - as a mighty creator - he could have said: be and it would have been.... As a creator, place and time do not apply to him. Those terms just describe things applied to creatures. He is above time. A day, 6 days, and 100 millions years all the same of course... He chose to create the universe in some way - big bang for example or any other way - and this universe - once created - introduced the concepts of place a time among others... He created the universe to last for a specific period of time. He is the only one who knows the end. He chose some part of the universe - we called it Earth -... He created all kind of creatures in different ways and with different needs. He created the most necessary needs - air and water for example - and makes them for free. No one can prevent others from having them as that would be life-threatening. He put all will-be-needed things - thorough the whole journey - in that planet. He put them in many forms that - in time - would be discovered. Generations after generations would live unaware of many things simply because they would not be needed.... He created the Man who is the purpose of this entire creation. Man - who is almost nothing compared to other parts in the universe in terms of size - would have something different. This thing would be the mind. Man will be the only creature that can be aware of himself and the universe... He would have a complete choice to do whatever he wants - withing the rules of universe- and would be able to realize that he himself and everything else could not have been created from nothing.... But just realizing that there must be a creator does not tell a lot about that creator... what HE wants mankind to do would be unknown.... Through thousands of years God would choose some specific persons - very good samples - and would reveal the truth to them and ask them to convey the message to their people. Just conveying the message and it is up people - as long as they are alive - to believe or not. But sooner or later, they would finish their period of living on this earth and would be asked how they dealt with his messengers and what they did with his instructions... Over time, thousands of prophets and messengers came with the same massage: You have a God. Your were not created by nothing. You would be left for nothing..... So whether people do believe that or not, the fact remains that this is the biggest matter in life.... People get so involved and overwhelmed by life details and do not see the whole picture... What do you think?... Quote
Mad_Michael Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional...Let us assume a scenario and think about it for a while... This very accurate universe has a creator who created it on purpose and takes care of it all the time... He chose to make his actions very simple so that his creatures - who would be created later - can understand them. He did not have to create in any specific way because - as a mighty creator - he could have said: be and it would have been.... As a creator, place and time do not apply to him. Those terms just describe things applied to creatures. He is above time. A day, 6 days, and 100 millions years all the same of course... He chose to create the universe in some way - big bang for example or any other way - and this universe - once created - introduced the concepts of place a time among others... He created the universe to last for a specific period of time. He is the only one who knows the end. He chose some part of the universe - we called it Earth -... He created all kind of creatures in different ways and with different needs. He created the most necessary needs - air and water for example - and makes them for free. No one can prevent others from having them as that would be life-threatening. He put all will-be-needed things - thorough the whole journey - in that planet. He put them in many forms that - in time - would be discovered. Generations after generations would live unaware of many things simply because they would not be needed.... He created the Man who is the purpose of this entire creation. Man - who is almost nothing compared to other parts in the universe in terms of size - would have something different. This thing would be the mind. Man will be the only creature that can be aware of himself and the universe... He would have a complete choice to do whatever he wants - withing the rules of universe- and would be able to realize that he himself and everything else could not have been created from nothing.... But just realizing that there must be a creator does not tell a lot about that creator... what HE wants mankind to do would be unknown.... Through thousands of years God would choose some specific persons - very good samples - and would reveal the truth to them and ask them to convey the message to their people. Just conveying the message and it is up people - as long as they are alive - to believe or not. But sooner or later, they would finish their period of living on this earth and would be asked how they dealt with his messengers and what they did with his instructions... Over time, thousands of prophets and messengers came with the same massage: You have a God. Your were not created by nothing. You would be left for nothing..... So whether people do believe that or not, the fact remains that this is the biggest matter in life.... People get so involved and overwhelmed by life details and do not see the whole picture... What do you think?... Here is your theory distilled into logical form: Premise #1 - God exists Premise #2 - God created everything Conclusion = Therefore God exists and created everything. And you dressed up this 'logic' with all kinds of assertions about how you seem to be personally and intimately familiar with God's own will and reasons for doing things. I'm not sure which is worse - the silly logic or the presumption that you know God's mind. Quote
Mad_Michael Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional... Here is your theory distilled into logical form: Premise #1 - God exists Premise #2 - God created everything Conclusion = Therefore God exists and created everything. And you dressed up this 'logic' with all kinds of assertions about how you seem to be personally and intimately familiar with God's own will and reasons for doing things. I'm not sure which is worse - the silly logic or the presumption that you alone know God's mind. Quote
Adel Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Posted March 14, 2007 I'm not sure which is worse - the silly logic or the presumption that you alone know God's mind. I did not put the way you did... People who deny God's existence face endless number of questions they HAVE TO answer not those who believe in God... People did not invent faith. This is something they are born with. Deep inside every person, he/she feels it and from our experience you would never feel you need or want something it does not exist... Furthermore, thousands of prophets all over history delivered the same message. It is completely impossible all of those very good men were liars given that they had never met each other... Just get out of habit for a while and ask yourself who gave you this mind and and the fingers you are using to reply to this post... Please think... Quote
Figleaf Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 ...Let us assume a scenario and think about it for a while...... What do you think?... Sounds improbable. Quote
Black Dog Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional... But then... Through thousands of years God would choose some specific persons - very good samples - and would reveal the truth to them and ask them to convey the message to their people. Just conveying the message and it is up people - as long as they are alive - to believe or not. So is believing in God optional or isn't it? Quote
Adel Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Posted March 14, 2007 It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional... But then... Through thousands of years God would choose some specific persons - very good samples - and would reveal the truth to them and ask them to convey the message to their people. Just conveying the message and it is up people - as long as they are alive - to believe or not. So is believing in God optional or isn't it? Believing in God is not optional at all, although forcing people to believe is not acceptable either... As long as people are alive, they have the absolute right to believe or not... But the fact that God exists is there.... It as we say to a student the exam date is coming and it is completely up to you from now until then to believe that and study hard or not... The law is there, but it is up to you to obey or not (Not obeying will have consequences though...) The difference here is that God made it clear that those consequences for obeying or not, believing or not, are not in this life... but in other life when the course of out life is over... So by saying it is not optional, it has nothing to do with forcing people to believe, but it has to do with the fact God exists regardless and depending on your free choice you are determining your distend Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 If it wasn't an option, then it would be standard on all models Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Wilber Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 If it wasn't an option, then it would be standard on all models So logical. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
guyser Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 People who deny God's existence face endless number of questions they HAVE TO answer not those who believe in God... No I dont., I face no questions what so ever. But of course you think so. While you do have a point , it is not the one your think you are making. If one "beleives" he does not think....but if one doesnt then he "has to " think. Wow that is messed up. People did not invent faith. This is something they are born with. Deep inside every person, he/she feels it and from our experience you would never feel you need or want something it does not exist... Ahh...more religious claptrap. Furthermore, thousands of prophets all over history delivered the same message. It is completely impossible all of those very good men were liars given that they had never met each other... Yes, totally impossible that men who would be lining their pockets would lie to the public.I think the word should be changed to "profits" as that is what most seem to want. Just get out of habit for a while and ask yourself who gave you this mind and and the fingers you are using to reply to this post... Tell ya what, you get out and think instead of being fed pablum by some crockery wannabe deity and I will think about it. But just to let you know, Darwin figured it out. You are typing with what used to be fins Please think... Take your own advice. Quote
Remiel Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 As a creator, place and time do not apply to him. Those terms just describe things applied to creatures. He is above time. A day, 6 days, and 100 millions years all the same of course...He chose to create the universe in some way - big bang for example or any other way - and this universe - once created - introduced the concepts of place a time among others... I think that you can distill everything you said down to these two points that actual follow some kind of logic. Everything else you said is either extraneous or likely nonsense. You took the beginning of a good theory, and cluttered it up with a bunch of mumbo jumbo that assumes more than can be reasonably inferred. Quote
Catchme Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 First Law of Thermodynamics Quote When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die. ~Jean-Paul Sartre
Adel Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Posted March 14, 2007 People who deny God's existence face endless number of questions they HAVE TO answer not those who believe in God... No I dont., I face no questions what so ever. But of course you think so. While you do have a point , it is not the one your think you are making. If one "beleives" he does not think....but if one doesnt then he "has to " think. Wow that is messed up. People did not invent faith. This is something they are born with. Deep inside every person, he/she feels it and from our experience you would never feel you need or want something it does not exist... Ahh...more religious claptrap. Furthermore, thousands of prophets all over history delivered the same message. It is completely impossible all of those very good men were liars given that they had never met each other... Yes, totally impossible that men who would be lining their pockets would lie to the public.I think the word should be changed to "profits" as that is what most seem to want. Just get out of habit for a while and ask yourself who gave you this mind and and the fingers you are using to reply to this post... Tell ya what, you get out and think instead of being fed pablum by some crockery wannabe deity and I will think about it. But just to let you know, Darwin figured it out. You are typing with what used to be fins Please think... Take your own advice. I am happy with your reply... But maybe I will have to put some light on what I mean by "Believing"... Fact is not afraid of any research... Use your mind. That is perfect. That is the idea behind your having a mind... Fool or ill-minded are not required to think or believe... You cannot believe without thinking and start from denying everything...think..doubt..argure..compare...and then believe is the final result... For those people who think the don't "believe"... they are wrong unfortunately.. because they DO believe but in something else...in money..in women..in power...but they do not believe in the one who created all that... For saying profits or their followers were looking for profits..nothing could be far from truth.. read the history and you will see all prophets were denied, tortured, sometimes killed, lived and died poor and were not interested at all in life enjoyment... As for Darwin or any other "theories", he just explains - even if it was fact not just arguable theory - how living beings were created not WHY or WHO... Give you an example..imagine a man who never saw a car before... once he saw it for the first time he was afraid and thought it was a ghost. After many years of studying, he recognized or discovered HOW it works and HOW it was designed. Now, does that mean NO-ONE designed and made that car? The good results from recent science and its discoveries is that it explains HOW everything works and was designed but not WHY and WHO created them... No one can deny the wisdom behind every thing in this world, from the atom to the whole universe... Quote
noahbody Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 Why doesn't everyone on the planet wear a bone through their nose? Why are there so many different languages? Why are there so many different religions? Isolated from each other people will come up with different traditions, dress, ways of communicating and explainations for the (once) unknown. Is it up to us to believe in science? Quote
Black Dog Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 Give you an example..imagine a man who never saw a car before... once he saw it for the first time he was afraid and thought it was a ghost. After many years of studying, he recognized or discovered HOW it works and HOW it was designed. Now, does that mean NO-ONE designed and made that car?The good results from recent science and its discoveries is that it explains HOW everything works and was designed but not WHY and WHO created them... No one can deny the wisdom behind every thing in this world, from the atom to the whole universe... Okay: so who made God? Quote
newbie Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 The difference here is that God made it clear that those consequences for obeying or not... How? And please don't say the Bible. Quote
guyser Posted March 14, 2007 Report Posted March 14, 2007 I am happy with your reply... But maybe I will have to put some light on what I mean by "Believing"... Well I am thankful you are happy with my reply. Fact is not afraid of any research... Except those that believe perhaps? Use your mind. That is perfect. That is the idea behind your having a mind...Fool or ill-minded are not required to think or believe... You cannot believe without thinking and start from denying everything...think..doubt..argure..compare...and then believe is the final result... I have. Their is no god, buddha, mohhamed, santa or the easter bunny. For those people who think the don't "believe"... they are wrong unfortunately.. because they DO believe but in something else...in money..in women..in power...but they do not believe in the one who created all that... Ahh the old "we know you think and it was gods design that gave you that tool" crap. For saying profits or their followers were looking for profits..nothing could be far from truth.. read the history and you will see all prophets were denied, tortured, sometimes killed, lived and died poor and were not interested at all in life enjoyment... I should have explained....Jimmy Swaggert, Ted Haggerty, Jim and pancake makeup lady whatshername, Billy Graham, Pat Buchanan, Ernest Angely....those are "profits" As for Darwin or any other "theories", he just explains - even if it was fact not just arguable theory - how living beings were created not WHY or WHO... So God put the amoeba like cell on earth and said...grow into a fish, crawl on land, make like a monkey and voila..MAN in my image. How about I take some of bluebloods canola, and wait for a couple of million years and it will magically be turned into a Buick, albeit a real fancy one.The people will worship me? The fools if they do. How about the explanation that lightening caused the right conditions to perpetuate life on earth? Oh right, god made lightning too. Give you an example..imagine a man who never saw a car before... once he saw it for the first time he was afraid and thought it was a ghost. After many years of studying, he recognized or discovered HOW it works and HOW it was designed. Now, does that mean NO-ONE designed and made that car? I dont know, go ask the same question in the rain forest circa 1950 when white men and airplanes were seen for the first time.....I kind of think they didnt slap their foreheads and say " there really is a god !!!! " No one can deny the wisdom behind every thing in this world, from the atom to the whole universe... Thats true , but no one can see the same and say there is proof of god. Quote
theloniusfleabag Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 (edited) Dear guyser, Jim and pancake makeup lady whatshernameTammy Faye Baker, whom I think may actually be Elvis in disguise.Their is no god, buddha, mohhamed, santa or the easter bunnyIntersting, but likely there was a 'Muhammed', though the prophet bit might be a stretch. Didn't you post something earlier and elsewhere bemoaning the bastardization of 'Gods personal statement clarifying his existence'? (Opps, that was figleaf, my apologies) Edited March 15, 2007 by theloniusfleabag Quote Would the Special Olympics Committee disqualify kids born with flippers from the swimming events?
August1991 Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 Through thousands of years God would choose some specific persons - very good samples - and would reveal the truth to them and ask them to convey the message to their people. Just conveying the message and it is up people - as long as they are alive - to believe or not. But sooner or later, they would finish their period of living on this earth and would be asked how they dealt with his messengers and what they did with his instructions...Over time, thousands of prophets and messengers came with the same massage: You have a God. Your were not created by nothing. You would be left for nothing..... Assuming everything you say is true, how do you know which specific persons are true prophets and which ones are charlatans? Quote
geoffrey Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 First Law of Thermodynamics That one works both ways. Quote RealRisk.ca - (Latest Post: Prosecutors have no "Skin in the Game") --
Catchme Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 Where is God for these seniors? Plight Worsens for Iraq's ElderlySources in Iraq have identified the elderly as being especially vulnerable as the conditions in that country continue to deteriorate. While exact figures are not available, aid agencies are being called on to deal with increasing numbers of elderly men and women who are facing medical and psychological trauma due to displacement and abandonment by family members. Relatives caring for their elderly are often afraid to go to distribution centres for food and basic medication due to fear of being targeted by insurgents. As people flee their homes, many elderly people are left behind to fend for themselves and frequently turn to begging in the streets to survive http://drvitelli.typepad.com/providentia/2...t_worsens_.html And please do not respond that they are not children of God and are deserving of what they are getting. Where was God, during the Holocaust? Where was God during any of the wars? Where was God when millions of women were being burned at the stake, or drowned in the witch hunts? Where was God when Pope Julius II was running around murdering people and stealing peasants money to promote his art patronage? Where was God when priests were/are sexually assaulting children? Quote When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die. ~Jean-Paul Sartre
Catchme Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 First Law of Thermodynamics That one works both ways. No, it only works ONE way! Quote When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die. ~Jean-Paul Sartre
geoffrey Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 No, it only works ONE way! Oh Catchme, when will you open your mind? Think of it this way. If energy cannot be created through physics, it's initial creation would have had to have happened outside of the laws of physics. Unless the universe was never created, and just always 'was'. I think that's a much harder theological or philosophical position to defend from either perspective. Quote RealRisk.ca - (Latest Post: Prosecutors have no "Skin in the Game") --
theloniusfleabag Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 Dear geoffrey, Unless the universe was never created, and just always 'was'. I think that's a much harder theological or philosophical position to defend from either perspective.It is exactly the same as believing 'God' always existed...Most people can conceptualize eternity in the future, but few seem to be able to apply it to the past. It seems to be universal to accept that something 'always was', but lots of people won't accept 'being always was', so they put an 'a' in front: 'a being always was'. Quote Would the Special Olympics Committee disqualify kids born with flippers from the swimming events?
Figleaf Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 The essential ontological problem 'How did it all get going?' cannot be created or destroyed by manipulation. Answer it with a deity and the same question merely shifts to it. Answer it with an 'it always was', and the question is simply converted into an unanswerable question about the nature of consciousness ... 'What accounts for the perception of change?' Answer it with a Big Bang and you are still left with no explanation for where the micro-sized, superdense, compact everything-yet-to-come proto-universe came from. Personally, I like to think the ontological problem is unanswerable because the future is indeterminate. If (as I hope) the universe's future is indeterminate, until the end is known, it cannot be known whether the beginning is done yet. We don't know how it begins, because until it ends, its is in a sort of indeterminate Shroedinger state wherein the nature of the beginning is also indeterminate. Quote
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