Is it up to us to believe in God?

[Charles Anthony]

FigL and TheL, I would like to hijack your thoughts and redirect them to the following abstract question:

What if we (and all other entities) had no long-term memory?

Apart from the obvious difficulty we would have functioning, we might not even think of the concept of origins or before or after. We would probably just think in terms of to be or not to be.

[Adel]

I am happy with your reply... But maybe I will have to put some light on what I mean by "Believing"...

Well I am thankful you are happy with my reply.

Fact is not afraid of any research...

Except those that believe perhaps?

Use your mind. That is perfect. That is the idea behind your having a mind...

Fool or ill-minded are not required to think or believe...

You cannot believe without thinking and start from denying everything...think..doubt..argure..compare...and then believe is the final result...

I have. Their is no god, buddha, mohhamed, santa or the easter bunny.

For those people who think the don't "believe"... they are wrong unfortunately.. because they DO believe but in something else...in money..in women..in power...but they do not believe in the one who created all that...

Ahh the old "we know you think and it was gods design that gave you that tool" crap.

For saying profits or their followers were looking for profits..nothing could be far from truth.. read the history and you will see all prophets were denied, tortured, sometimes killed, lived and died poor and were not interested at all in life enjoyment...

I should have explained....Jimmy Swaggert, Ted Haggerty, Jim and pancake makeup lady whatshername, Billy Graham, Pat Buchanan, Ernest Angely....those are "profits"

As for Darwin or any other "theories", he just explains - even if it was fact not just arguable theory - how living beings were created not WHY or WHO...

So God put the amoeba like cell on earth and said...grow into a fish, crawl on land, make like a monkey and voila..MAN in my image. How about I take some of bluebloods canola, and wait for a couple of million years and it will magically be turned into a Buick, albeit a real fancy one.The people will worship me? The fools if they do.

How about the explanation that lightening caused the right conditions to perpetuate life on earth? Oh right, god made lightning too.

Give you an example..imagine a man who never saw a car before... once he saw it for the first time he was afraid and thought it was a ghost. After many years of studying, he recognized or discovered HOW it works and HOW it was designed. Now, does that mean NO-ONE designed and made that car?

I dont know, go ask the same question in the rain forest circa 1950 when white men and airplanes were seen for the first time.....I kind of think they didnt slap their foreheads and say " there really is a god !!!! "

No one can deny the wisdom behind every thing in this world, from the atom to the whole universe...

Thats true , but no one can see the same and say there is proof of god.

Again I cannot hide my appreciation and admiration of your reply...

You admitted that there is wisdom behind everything in this universe. Well, that is good...

Could you explain to me who put that wisdom?

Scientists will tell you about the miraculous logic behind everything - I repeat EVERYTHING - and you are telling me that it happened by chance. That is really braveness to say that. And still you call this LOGIC....

So the blind cells in my body know everything. They know what is good and what bad. My lungs know - guess what - the components of air and they select - by chance - what is good and get rid of what is bad??

I can give you endless number of examples that I am sure you have NO answers to them except the ready answer: no God....

That is why I said earlier that people who deny God have to answer endless number of questions and convince us that THE IS NO CREATOR. People who admit there must be a creator - whoever - who created this very perfect universe are closer to logic than others..

Look at your food. Who created it? Who made it perfect to our bodies? Who created seeds, rain, and soil to give you food? You just take this for granted, don't you?

People take for granted everything. Well of somebody gives you a hundred dollars, I am sure you would not take that for granted. But you take millions of millions of things around you for granted....

[Black Dog]

That is why I said earlier that people who deny God have to answer endless number of questions and convince us that THE IS NO CREATOR. People who admit there must be a creator - whoever - who created this very perfect universe are closer to logic than others..

People who say there is a God only have to answer a single question: if everything needs a creator, who created God?

[August1991]

I can give you endless number of examples that I am sure you have NO answers to them except the ready answer: no God....

That is why I said earlier that people who deny God have to answer endless number of questions and convince us that THE IS NO CREATOR. People who admit there must be a creator - whoever - who created this very perfect universe are closer to logic than others..

Look at your food. Who created it? Who made it perfect to our bodies? Who created seeds, rain, and soil to give you food? You just take this for granted, don't you?

People take for granted everything. Well of somebody gives you a hundred dollars, I am sure you would not take that for granted. But you take millions of millions of things around you for granted....

Adel, I have no dispute nor even problem with you about your belief in God. I'm still wondering though about your claim about "prophets". How do you know that one person is a legitimate prophet and another person is a charlatan?

It seems to me that if a person claims to have direct contact with God, there is good reason to doubt that person's claim. Indeed, I'd say the person is engaging in politics, not religion.

[Adel]

That is why I said earlier that people who deny God have to answer endless number of questions and convince us that THE IS NO CREATOR. People who admit there must be a creator - whoever - who created this very perfect universe are closer to logic than others..

People who say there is a God only have to answer a single question: if everything needs a creator, who created God?

I cannot consider this as any answer to any question I asked....

Your question is not a valid one when it comes to The Creator... If a god was created then he is not a god....

Being creatures, we tend to compare everything to us... that holds true for everything except for the creator..

Existence is the base not non-existence.. because nothing comes from nothing... this is something clear and many philosophers stated that...

Because we were created and we - as the whole universe - have a beginning, we think this is the base and it must apply to even the creator ...

The confusing point for people denying the creator is when they do not see the creator HIMSELF do his actions in front of their eyes.. they just think things just happen - seemingly - by themselves....

So when people see - for example - a fetus is being formed inside a womb, they say 'Oh, that is normal. nobody forms that fetus..we don't see anyone is doing that..' That does not sound logical to me…

So they want the unlimited creator - who is above time and space - to appear and physically does it in front of them to know that that fetus was not being created by itself...

In previous times… the creator send his messengers with those kind of miracles for people who did not want to think...but wanted to see something physical to happen in front of their eyes… even some people asked their prophet to show them the creator…

Rational people do not need physical miracles to think and realize that not seeing the cars, houses, planes, trains, computers….etc being made does not mean no-one made them….

Rational people do not need physical miracles to realize drones don’t fly be themselves…etc..

[August1991]

Fine, Adel. You've shown us that God must have created this wonderful universe around us. So be it.

There's a more pertinent question however you ignore.

In previous times… the creator send his messengers with those kind of miracles for people who did not want to think...but wanted to see something physical to happen in front of their eyes… even some people asked their prophet to show them the creator…

What evidence do you have that God/the Creator ever sent a messenger?

I'm not disputing your claim that God must exist. That's your belief. I am questioning how you know that God is mixed up in the affairs of men. Specifically, I am questioning how a person can make the claim to be God's messenger.

What stops a charlatan from making the same claim?

[Catchme]

No, it only works ONE way!

Oh Catchme, when will you open your mind?

Think of it this way. If energy cannot be created through physics, it's initial creation would have had to have happened outside of the laws of physics.

Unless the universe was never created, and just always 'was'. I think that's a much harder theological or philosophical position to defend from either perspective.

Do not think it is my mind that needs opening tyvm!

Moreover, clearly I did not state any held position.

[Black Dog]

Your question is not a valid one when it comes to The Creator... If a god was created then he is not a god....

Why not?

Being creatures, we tend to compare everything to us... that holds true for everything except for the creator..

So everything heeds to come from something except the creator? That's junk. Why not just say the universe has always existed and cut out the middle man?

The confusing point for people denying the creator is when they do not see the creator HIMSELF do his actions in front of their eyes.. they just think things just happen - seemingly - by themselves....

So when people see - for example - a fetus is being formed inside a womb, they say 'Oh, that is normal. nobody forms that fetus..we don't see anyone is doing that..' That does not sound logical to me…

No. There's naturalistic explanations for all of the phenomenons you describe. In the case of the fetus, we know how cells combine and mulitply. There's a process there, it's not happening "by itself".

Cars, building etc. come from raw materials. But God apparently doesn't need raw materials. He just makes stuff out of nothing. So your analogies are weak.

[Adel]

Fine, Adel. You've shown us that God must have created this wonderful universe around us. So be it.

There's a more pertinent question however you ignore.

In previous times… the creator send his messengers with those kind of miracles for people who did not want to think...but wanted to see something physical to happen in front of their eyes… even some people asked their prophet to show them the creator…

What evidence do you have that God/the Creator ever sent a messenger?

I'm not disputing your claim that God must exist. That's your belief. I am questioning how you know that God is mixed up in the affairs of men. Specifically, I am questioning how a person can make the claim to be God's messenger.

What stops a charlatan from making the same claim?

That is a very valid question...

Anyone could come up and pretended he was a prophet... and actually this happened....

Through history, these are the characteristics of true prophets :

1- They were the best people in terms of mental, logical, moral aspects.

Proof: Even their enemies could not truly deny that.

2- They were not looking for money or authorities.

Proof: They were offered all this from the people who did not believe them just to

stop conveying their messages. They offered many prophets to share

authority but all of them refused that.

3- All of prophets conveyed the same message. All prophet said “You have one God. Your God is the creator of the whole universe. He created you and created everything. He is telling you to worship him not anything or anybody else. All people are the same, rich or poor, white or black or red, men or women, rulers or subjects, all the same ”

4- They have never said anything that did not make sense. Even when they were talking about scientific facts like universe creation, heavens and earth, or future which was completely unknown to people at that time…

One example : one prophet conveyed a verse, more than a thousand years ago, saying “Do not the unbelievers know that heavens and earth were one piece and then we separated them”. Another verse - the creator says- “I created heaven with great might and I am going to expand it”. So who told that prophet long long time ago, when all people knew almost nothing about what we know now that the universe is expanding? ….

5- For people who did not believe using their minds, and for people who were suspicious, all prophets were sent with miracles.

6- Proof: Abraham was inside the fire and the creator order fire to stop acting as being fire and he did not feel it. (For those “logical” people who like to use their mind, it is a good time here to tell them that all the behaviors of everything are not the only possible behaviors. Behavior of everything is the behavior that the creator chose. Otherwise logically, we could have three or four eyes…water could hurt, fire could be cold, earth could be flat, we did not need air to live….etc.) Here we can take another verse from a whole book. The creator said “Mankind, if I took light out of you, who would bring it back to you? Or if I took the ability of seeing from you who would give it back to you? If I took the ability of hearing from you who would give it back to you?”). This makes sense. He is the one he gave them to us and he could take them back if he wants or if we did not appreciate. And to make us think about that, we can find people not being able to see and nothing wrong with their eyes, some people cannot have kinds although nothing wrong with both the husband and the wife…

We can mention other prophets’ miracles but that would be a lot…

7- They lived and died an example of their messages. They never said something and did the opposite. They made it clear, their rewards are in the heavens after life. They did not want or expected – actual the rejected – all kind of life enjoyment (money, women, authority, clothes, houses….etc)

[Adel]

Your question is not a valid one when it comes to The Creator... If a god was created then he is not a god....

Why not?

Being creatures, we tend to compare everything to us... that holds true for everything except for the creator..

So everything heeds to come from something except the creator? That's junk. Why not just say the universe has always existed and cut out the middle man?

The confusing point for people denying the creator is when they do not see the creator HIMSELF do his actions in front of their eyes.. they just think things just happen - seemingly - by themselves....

So when people see - for example - a fetus is being formed inside a womb, they say 'Oh, that is normal. nobody forms that fetus..we don't see anyone is doing that..' That does not sound logical to me…

No. There's naturalistic explanations for all of the phenomenons you describe. In the case of the fetus, we know how cells combine and mulitply. There's a process there, it's not happening "by itself".

Cars, building etc. come from raw materials. But God apparently doesn't need raw materials. He just makes stuff out of nothing. So your analogies are weak.

Thanks for you reply..

So everything heeds to come from something except the creator? That's junk. Why not just say the universe has always existed and cut out the middle man?

Scientists made it clear already the universe has a beginning. The research now is about HOW the universe started existence..

No. There's naturalistic explanations for all of the phenomenons you describe. In the case of the fetus, we know how cells combine and mulitply. There's a process there, it's not happening "by itself".?

Again you are talking about HOW these things happen. This is the way – among endless other possible ways- the creator chose to create living beings. He did not need at all to use means of any specific ways to do that. He just chose this way, which is miraculous to us – to do it. He did not need any means to create the universe from nothing. He did not need a father to create Jesus. He did not need means to turn Moses’ stick into a living snake…..

If you think cells know what they doing by themselves, you went so far using your ‘logic’…

Cars, building etc. come from raw materials. But God apparently doesn't need raw materials. He just makes stuff out of nothing. So your analogies are weak.

I completely agree that the creator does not need raw materials to create anything (He created even the row material though…)

He just makes stuff out of nothing. That is true and that is exactly what I am trying to explain…

But if you expect the creator would do the ‘direct creation’ every time he wanted to create everything, then this is something else and He did not chose that, although He is completely capable of. Ho chose to make things as clear to our minds as possible. I am sure you want to see you kid being help in your wife’s womb and then you see it grow in front of you instead of suddenly you found something from nothing called your kid….

[guyser]

He just makes stuff out of nothing. That is true and that is exactly what I am trying to explain…

Kind of like religion, a whole lot out of nothing.

People can believe in a higher god, that is their perogative , and frankly none of my business. I may have insulted people with my "whole lot of nothing " comment, and thats wrong.

But to try and convince me to believe, in the face of my strong observation , is a pain in my arse, like the idiots who come to my door on the weekend. When I answer and say what religious doctrine are you repping, or what church, they obfuscate . Shutting the door works tho.

But to each their own.

[Black Dog]

Scientists made it clear already the universe has a beginning. The research now is about HOW the universe started existence..

I think it's irnoic that you are citing science here when you entire argument rests on the persumption of a supernatural god.

He just makes stuff out of nothing. That is true and that is exactly what I am trying to explain…

If God is supernatural, it's impossible to have a rational and logical discussion about it. That's faith.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Charles Anthony,

FigL and TheL, I would like to hijack your thoughts and redirect them to the following abstract question:

What if we (and all other entities) had no long-term memory?

Apart from the obvious difficulty we would have functioning, we might not even think of the concept of origins or before or after. We would probably just think in terms of to be or not to be.

I do not believe that a creature with no memory could comprehend the 'not be' bit, nor really even the 'being' bit. Is a radish aware of it's own mortality?

Black Dog,

People who say there is a God only have to answer a single question: if everything needs a creator, who created God?

You point out the flaw in the 'religious causal argument'. God, or a creator, is a glaring exception to the rule that everything is caused by something else...

[Adel]

He just makes stuff out of nothing. That is true and that is exactly what I am trying to explain…

Kind of like religion, a whole lot out of nothing.

People can believe in a higher god, that is their perogative , and frankly none of my business. I may have insulted people with my "whole lot of nothing " comment, and thats wrong.

But to try and convince me to believe, in the face of my strong observation , is a pain in my arse, like the idiots who come to my door on the weekend. When I answer and say what religious doctrine are you repping, or what church, they obfuscate . Shutting the door works tho.

But to each their own.

I cannot balm you that many of people trying to explain their beliefs are bad examples or bad representatives. But at least I understand their good intentions… and I appreciate their efforts….

When I said the creator created the universe from nothing I did not mean at all He was playing. The universe is a very very serious matter. I just wanted to say the creator did not need any materials of previous examples to use…

The creator said in one of his wholly books “I was not playing when I created heavens and earth. I created them on purpose…”

[Adel]

Scientists made it clear already the universe has a beginning. The research now is about HOW the universe started existence..

I think it's irnoic that you are citing science here when you entire argument rests on the persumption of a supernatural god.

He just makes stuff out of nothing. That is true and that is exactly what I am trying to explain…

If God is supernatural, it's impossible to have a rational and logical discussion about it. That's faith.

I think we are driving a logical discussion.. but I feel that you sometimes ignore my big questions and do not answer them...

If the universe has a beginning, who created it? We all admit nothing comes from nothing.

If the universe is that miraculously perfect, could it make itself? It is amazing that people when they look at the digital cameras they cannot hide their admiration and they ask who made it and on the other hand they dare to say – and they call it logic and rational debate - our perfect eyes created them selves….

[Black Dog]

If the universe has a beginning, who created it? We all admit nothing comes from nothing.

If nothing comes from nothing, then God must have come from something. If you say God came from nothing or always existed, I can say the same about the universe. In any case, from a scientific standpoint, the universe did not come from nothing. Big Bang cosmology, for example, states that all matter and engery in the universe was originally contained with a single point of extremely high mass and density. Implausible? No more so than the concept of a sentient and supernatural deity.

If the universe is that miraculously perfect, could it make itself?

Define the term "miraculously perfect."

It is amazing that people when they look at the digital cameras they cannot hide their admiration and they ask who made it and on the other hand they dare to say – and they call it logic and rational debate - our perfect eyes created them selves….

Sigh. Our eyes don't work all that well at night. They don't give us a very good range of vision. They are soft and vulnerable. In fact, like so many parts of the human body, they are decidedly imperfect.

Nor is anyone saying they create dthemselves from nothing (whatever the hell that means). There's processes for this stuff and science does a pretty good job of explaining how these things develop. . Anyway, why is this anymore illogical than the presumption that god started the process? Like I said, you're just adding an uneccesary step.

[Adel]

If the universe has a beginning, who created it? We all admit nothing comes from nothing.

If nothing comes from nothing, then God must have come from something. If you say God came from nothing or always existed, I can say the same about the universe. In any case, from a scientific standpoint, the universe did not come from nothing. Big Bang cosmology, for example, states that all matter and engery in the universe was originally contained with a single point of extremely high mass and density. Implausible? No more so than the concept of a sentient and supernatural deity.

If the universe is that miraculously perfect, could it make itself?

Define the term "miraculously perfect."

It is amazing that people when they look at the digital cameras they cannot hide their admiration and they ask who made it and on the other hand they dare to say – and they call it logic and rational debate - our perfect eyes created them selves….

Sigh. Our eye don't work all that well at night. They don't give us a very good range of vision. They are soft and vulnerable. In fact, like so many parts of th ehuman body, they are decidedly imperfect.

Nor is anyone saying they create dthemselves from nothing (whatever the hell that means). Like I said, there's processes for this stuff. Anyway, why is this anymore illogical than the presumption that god started the process? Like I said, you're just adding an uneccesary step.

As far as I know when there is a process, there must be a bigging for that process,a starter fro that process, a logic fro that process, a result for that process…

And when we see a perfect process with very meaningful results we must admit SOMEONE started and controlled that process…

During that process - you are talking about - there has been endless number of ways that would lead to completely different results… but why this blind unthinking process – as you are claiming – always choose the appropriate way, the appropriate time, the appropriate amount, the appropriate……etc

Why we always have our eyes, arms, legs….in place? You would say “Oh, I have told you many times that the cells…..” do you find that logical?

It is people’s habit that they don’t think rationally about things they take for granted until they lose it… When they lose their eyes, their legs… when they lack water or food.. when they have a disease that doctors say we cannot do anything about it….when they are in a plane shaking in air….

In those unfamiliar times, I am sure they know which ONE they will call and ask….

You should appreciate you precious (soft and vulnerable!!!!!) eyes man…I am asking the creator keep them safe and keep you happy…

[Black Dog]

As far as I know when there is a process, there must be a bigging for that process,a starter fro that process, a logic fro that process, a result for that process…

And when we see a perfect process with very meaningful results we must admit SOMEONE started and controlled that process…

Then who created God? If everything requires a creator, then, logically, the creator must have been created. If God does not require a creator, then your premise (everythiong needs a creator) is false.

During that process - you are talking about - there has been endless number of ways that would lead to completely different results… but why this blind unthinking process – as you are claiming – always choose the appropriate way, the appropriate time, the appropriate amount, the appropriate……etc

You throw around words like "perfect" and "appropriate." What do they mean? Anyhoo, the process doesn't always result in the ideal forms. But nature has a way of weeding out unsuccessful models and keeping adaptations that are beneficial. It's luck, it's trial and error.

Why we always have our eyes, arms, legs….in place? You would say “Oh, I have told you many times that the cells…..” do you find that logical?

This is barely English. We haven't always had our arms, legs, eyes etc. the way we have them now.

It is people’s habit that they don’t think rationally about things they take for granted until they lose it… When they lose their eyes, their legs… when they lack water or food.. when they have a disease that doctors say we cannot do anything about it….when they are in a plane shaking in air….

You're not thinking rationally. You are taking the existence of God on faith. Faith is inherently irrational.

As for the rest, I have no idea what your point is.

In those unfamiliar times, I am sure they know which ONE they will call and ask….

And when the plane crashes, killing all on board, or the cancer spreads and eats away at the person's brain, does he answer?

[noahbody]

I think we are driving a logical discussion.. but I feel that you sometimes ignore my big questions and do not answer them...

If the universe has a beginning, who created it? We all admit nothing comes from nothing.

Just to confront your thinking on the matter Adel, if a rock falls down a mountain, did someone or something have to push it? If your answer is yes, god pushed it. Your god spends his time pushing rocks down a mountain while in the meantime millions starve, people suffer and children are molested.

[Adel]

As far as I know when there is a process, there must be a bigging for that process,a starter fro that process, a logic fro that process, a result for that process…

And when we see a perfect process with very meaningful results we must admit SOMEONE started and controlled that process…

Then who created God? If everything requires a creator, then, logically, the creator must have been created. If God does not require a creator, then your premise (everythiong needs a creator) is false.

During that process - you are talking about - there has been endless number of ways that would lead to completely different results… but why this blind unthinking process – as you are claiming – always choose the appropriate way, the appropriate time, the appropriate amount, the appropriate……etc

You throw around words like "perfect" and "appropriate." What do they mean? Anyhoo, the process doesn't always result in the ideal forms. But nature has a way of weeding out unsuccessful models and keeping adaptations that are beneficial. It's luck, it's trial and error.

Why we always have our eyes, arms, legs….in place? You would say “Oh, I have told you many times that the cells…..” do you find that logical?

This is barely English. We haven't always had our arms, legs, eyes etc. the way we have them now.

It is people’s habit that they don’t think rationally about things they take for granted until they lose it… When they lose their eyes, their legs… when they lack water or food.. when they have a disease that doctors say we cannot do anything about it….when they are in a plane shaking in air….

You're not thinking rationally. You are taking the existence of God on faith. Faith is inherently irrational.

As for the rest, I have no idea what your point is.

In those unfamiliar times, I am sure they know which ONE they will call and ask….

And when the plane crashes, killing all on board, or the cancer spreads and eats away at the person's brain, does he answer?

Thanks for your reply...

1- Again The Creator is above time and place. Concepts like life, death, place, time, light, dark ... were created when the universe was created....

2- For accidents that happen in this world, they happen on purpose even if we do not know why. It might appear as unfair for us, but as long as we do not see the whole picture we are not in a good position to judge.. if you are injecting your kid to save his/her life or cure him/her from a disease , your kid –feeling only the pain – would consider it unfair, while it is not from your point of view. I am sure we have many situations in life we all faced and considered unfair and then when we saw the whole picture we changed our mind…

3- Saying that we did not have our legs, hands… the way we have them now is just an arguable “theory”. Many scientists do not agree with that. You can follow the fetus creation process and see how we were created. Everything where it should be. Do not tell me “NATURE” changes our chromosomes also to create parts of our bodies’ parts the way they are. Nature is just a descriptive concept of our familiar ovservations. It is not living rational being to do any thing. What is nature man? If you put a hundred dollars on your desk and went away for awhile. Now if you came back and did not find it, would you agree with anyone telling you that ‘nature’ took it?.....

[Black Dog]

- Again The Creator is above time and place. Concepts like life, death, place, time, light, dark ... were created when the universe was created....

You don't address the contradiction. If everything has a creator, then who created god? If god does not require a creator, then not everything requires a creator and therefore god is uneccesary. If god has existed forever, then who's to say that the universe itself has not existed, in some form or another, forever?

For accidents that happen in this world, they happen on purpose even if we do not know why.

So nothing is random? That's terrifying. On the plus side, though, it totally frees me from any responsibility for my actions. I'm off to rob a bank now...

Saying that we did not have our legs, hands… the way we have them now is just an arguable “theory”. Many scientists do not agree with that.

Actually very few scientists disagree with that. Why? Because the weight of scientific evidence is firmly on my side here.

You can follow the fetus creation process and see how we were created.

And I can tell you how this process does not require the involvement of a unseen supreme being.

Everything where it should be.

What about birth defects, cojoined twins? Oh wait: God does everything for a reason, right? Sorry, that's not an explanation, but an excuse for not having an explanation.

Nature is just a descriptive concept of our familiar ovservations. It is not living rational being to do any thing.

So what if it isn't?

If you put a hundred dollars on your desk and went away for awhile. Now if you came back and did not find it, would you agree with anyone telling you that ‘nature’ took it?.....

No. I would assume, logically, that someone nicked it. Just as if someone says everything has a creator and that creator is god, I would ask, logically, who created god.

[Adel]

I think we are driving a logical discussion.. but I feel that you sometimes ignore my big questions and do not answer them...

If the universe has a beginning, who created it? We all admit nothing comes from nothing.

Just to confront your thinking on the matter Adel, if a rock falls down a mountain, did someone or something have to push it? If your answer is yes, god pushed it. Your god spends his time pushing rocks down a mountain while in the meantime millions starve, people suffer and children are molested.

That is a good point...

To be judged fairly you must have the freedom to do whatever you want to do, right or wrong. If you cannot do anything wrong (hurting people, stealing, lying, ..etc) then you don’t have free choice…

If God punishes guilty people right away, we would be here now arguing whether He exists. Probably this is the main reason people are arguing and have doubts as the judgment day is not in this life…

Having said that, I can explain why people die starving and others are throwing food in garbage cans… It is people’s free behavior that caused that. If someone killed another, the creator does not like that, but he gave everyone free choice and capability to behave…

Having a look at the holy books, you can easily see He considered all those actions as big sins and threatened those who committed with severe consequences in life – through law - and on the judgment day.

Loot at one of the prophet’s sayings “By God, he does not believe in God who sleeps full and his neighbor sleeps hungry and he knows that.”

As for the other point of pushing rocks down a mountain, yes, the creator does that. But not in that simple direct way you think. He does that through the mechanism He created in the universe. Just another thing, the creator can do everything and all things at the same time. There is no time apply to Him. He said that in one of His holy book that He will judge all people at the same time….

[Black Dog]

But if god not only knows what's going to happen, but acts to ensure things happen according to his plan, then we cannot really be said to have free will. We are naught but puppets. If I choose to go rob a bank, that choice is, by your logic, part of god's plan for me, therefore it is not really my responsibility.

[Adel]

But if god not only knows what's going to happen, but acts to ensure things happen according to his plan, then we cannot really be said to have free will. We are naught but puppets. If I choose to go rob a bank, that choice is, by your logic, part of god's plan for me, therefore it is not really my responsibility.

The creator does NOT interfere - usually - in human actions. If he did, one’s responsibility would be only on his intentions and what actions he has already taken. For example, if a person decides to rob a bank, and God – for a specific wisdom - does not want this to happen, He would interfere - in His ways – to prevent that…

What I mean by “in His ways” is that it could be many ways. Examples: suddenly that person becomes sick without any reason, or he receives an unexpected call about his family, or a sudden renovations would happen at the bank that night, or while being drunk, he mentioned that and someone told the police, or ….etc …

People – who do not see the whole picture – would see any scenario of those as natural and by chance. But people who know the wisdom of the creator – scattered through his universe - will not….

Now going back to that robber, he would only be responsible in front of God for his intention to rob the bank but not for a robbery.

I am not faking that out. This is very well-known for believers and was stated clearly in the holy books.

On the other hand if a person indented to do a good thing and could not – for any reason – make it, his reward will be - not just for his good intention – as if he really did it completely. This is to encourage human being to commit good deeds…

[Black Dog]

The creator does NOT interfere - usually - in human actions. If he did, one’s responsibility would be only on his intentions and what actions he has already taken. For example, if a person decides to rob a bank, and God – for a specific wisdom - does not want this to happen, He would interfere - in His ways – to prevent that…

Another contradiction. It seems, acording to you, god manipulates events so as to pre-empt free choice. He's a puppet master. Thus, we must assume that evil actions-let's say, the Holocaust- are part of God's plan. Which doesn't make him look like a particularly nice god.