Radical Feminism

[jefferiah]

For a woman to say of an innocent person, he could gain from the experience of being unjustly accused of rape......you dont think that is a bit conceited. And if he was unjustly accused what hot stove did he touch.

[kimmy]

If you will say to me you dont agree with her, and that disagreeing with a feminist is not mysogyny. I would be very pleased. And I will apologize to you. In fact since my infraction occured first, I will say "I am sorry Kimmy for bringing that Jesus thread up." Is that fair enough?

Is that one really a big deal for you? I mean, aside from possibly Catchme, who *does* believe that it's misogynist to disagree with a feminist?

-k

[jefferiah]

Actually Kimmy it would be important to hear you say this. To say that women can be just as wrong as men. To say that women can be just as unfair as men. To hear you condemn Catch Me's statements. I expressed my disagreement with B. Max. So far everyone has expressed their concern with me, but no one has even said what Catch Me said is unfair.

[Catchme]

Even if the quotes are old (I didnt check the dates on them) we have at least established that Catch Me, who I assume is not living in some sort of time anomaly, does not condemn them.

The quotes are old which is why I posted links, that you apparently did not read, explaining the progression of feminist thought.

You have not established anything, and even if you did establish anything, what bearing would it have on this discussion? Are you trying to label me as a "radical" feminist, thereby seeking to discredit my words?

Stating that women are not equal treated in this society called Canada, and stating that those who do not believe in women's equality are misogynists, is not radical.

[jefferiah]

You said if I dont agree with a feminist I am a mysogynist. If the feminist has an unreasonable view regarding feminism, that is not really equal, then what does it have to do with equality. If you admit that you are human, than you admit you can be wrong. If a feminist is a human then she can be wrong, and then when she is wrong is it mysogyny to point out that she can be.

[kimmy]

Actually Kimmy it would be important to hear you say this. To say that women can be just as wrong as men. To say that women can be just as unfair as men. To hear you condemn Catch Me's statements. I expressed my disagreement with B. Max. So far everyone has expressed their concern with me, but no one has even said what Catch Me said is unfair.

Of course women can be just as wrong as men. And it is not necessarily misogynist to disagree with a feminist.

As for condemning Catchme's remarks, I would condemn them if I was sure that's what she was trying to say.

-k

[jefferiah]

"Look this is NOT about men, and yes if it is a man thinking a feminist is wrong, then it is misogyny."

This is your quote, not mine Catch Me. You didnt say that not believing in equality is mysogyny you said not agreeing with a feminist is mysogyny. This implies that feminists always have an infallible view of what equality is.

[jefferiah]

Now look if it were as simple as saying all womens issues did not have an affect on overall fairness for all individuals I would agree that it is not a man's business to intrude. But not all issues are that exclusive. Affirmative action policies. The movement toward's enforcing gender parity in parliament. There are very reasonable arguments against this, because it would undoubtebly affect democracy. The fact that you believe in freedom of determination over your own body---thats your view. You say that pro-choice covers everyone's view because it allows people who dont want to have abortions to not have them. But you go the extra mile and say it is your God given right to have free abortions paid for by everyone, including people who given the power of self-determination would not choose to fund it. And one someone points out this is unfair, you call them a mysogynist. You did this on another thread. And you made the ridiculous comparison to feudalism. If a woman cant get a free abortion we might as well go back to feudalism and serfdom. That sort of thing. I dont think its unreasonable to suggest that if we could ruscitate a serf and ask him or her if the refusal of government to provide women with free abortions is comparable to serfdom...I think he or she would quite reasonably say thats a bit of an immature and whiney comparison.

[Black Dog]

Even so Black Dog, imagine a person says a black man could gain from the experience of slavery.

Well, that would certainly be a contentious statement. But it is not neccesarily an endorsement of slavery. That depends entirely on the...wait for it...context.

For a woman to say of an innocent person, he could gain from the experience of being unjustly accused of rape......you dont think that is a bit conceited.

Huh?

And if he was unjustly accused what hot stove did he touch.

And now you're mixing the quote with my analogy.

[Catchme]

"Look this is NOT about men, and yes if it is a man thinking a feminist is wrong, then it is misogyny."

This is your quote, not mine Catch Me. You didnt say that not believing in equality is mysogyny you said not agreeing with a feminist is mysogyny. This implies that feminists always have an infallible view of what equality is.

You are taking that out of context, and mirepresenting those words. I had quite clearly stated before NO feminist that I know would support the unequal hours worked scenario given, and in particular, I was saying with those words that:

1. That a man cannot tell a woman that her view of feminism is wrong. Keeping in mind femiinism does not support the notion of equal wages for unequal time worked strawman argument.

2. A man has no right to tell a feminist how to determine her body or place in the world, or even how she should approach it.

3. The fight for equality is done by women on their individual terms not from male input.

You took a narrow comment based upon this discussion thread and made it broad in application. You did not read the links given, explaining 1st wave 2nd wave etc, you have NO idea what feminism is, you won't be bothered to find out and yet you think you have a right to make commentary and pass judgement, I say that is misogyny.

[jefferiah]

Those were your words. And they are not misrepresented. "That a man cannot tell a woman that her view of feminism is wrong." Why the hell not? What if she is being unreasonable? Or you dont think it is impossible for a woman to be unreasonable?

[jefferiah]

"Look this is NOT about men, and yes if it is a man thinking a feminist is wrong, then it is misogyny."

This is your quote, not mine Catch Me. You didnt say that not believing in equality is mysogyny you said not agreeing with a feminist is mysogyny. This implies that feminists always have an infallible view of what equality is.

You are taking that out of context, and mirepresenting those words. I had quite clearly stated before NO feminist that I know would support the unequal hours worked scenario given, and in particular, I was saying with those words that:

1. That a man cannot tell a woman that her view of feminism is wrong. Keeping in mind femiinism does not support the notion of equal wages for unequal time worked strawman argument.

2. A man has no right to tell a feminist how to determine her body or place in the world, or even how she should approach it.

3. The fight for equality is done by women on their individual terms not from male input.

You took a narrow comment based upon this discussion thread and made it broad in application. You did not read the links given, explaining 1st wave 2nd wave etc, you have NO idea what feminism is, you won't be bothered to find out and yet you think you have a right to make commentary and pass judgement, I say that is misogyny.

I never said feminism was any one thing. And what happens if a womans view of what is equal is unjust? Since we are not allowed to intrude in the feminist view point nothing can be done about it.

[Catchme]

Those were your words. And they are not misrepresented. "That a man cannot tell a woman that her view of feminism is wrong." Why the hell not? What if she is being unreasonable? Or you dont think it is impossible for a woman to be unreasonable?

There is no contextual value in your comment, plus how can a man tell a woman her view of feminism is wrong? Seriously? Think about it.

Women can discuss and debate the reasonableness of feminist thought and/or action, men cannot, they have no experience to base their perceptions upon other than being male.

And I have already stated that yes, woman can be wrong, but that is outside the parameters of feminist thought, why are you harping to it?

And please do read up on feminist thought instead of trying to dialogue from a position of having NO knowledge whatsoever, other than a few outdated quotes to form your thoughts and strawman arguments that are not applicable.

[jefferiah]

See you accused Mike and I of mysogyny for not supporting the idea of subsidized abortion. Now, look, you say feminist issues are about females and men should stay out. But what happens when an issue which goes under the umbrella of feminism affects other people as well. Subsidized abortion is not merely a woman's issue since women are not the only people who pay taxes, and I think a lot of women would also disagree with it. Do you think it is unreasonable and intruding for someone to speak up when taxes are concerned? But to use your own methodology I could also say that abortion falls under other umbrellas as well. Such as the belief in equality for unborn children and their right to life. Since you are not a supporter of this movement then I could say well this is an issue to be discussed among right-to-lifers and you are not welcome. Would that be reasonable? And the issue is not even what to do with a womans body, its a right-to-lifers freedom t abstain from the financial support of something he or she does not believe in. You used general medicare as an example to say why should I support someone with a medical problem. Well, I dont really think that argument even applies to you at all, since you probably would never support removing the medicare system. Medicare is something that is transcendent of sex, race, age, or creed. We all need it. Abortion is a very questionable issue. You dont even acknowledge this or express any sensitivity to it at all. The fact that you are allowed to get one is not enough, you feel that people have a right to get a free one while people who would otherwise. On the one hand you make pro-choice about allowing people to exercise their own self-determination, to exercise their own stance on the issue of abortion, and then you claim that you have the right to override their own self-determination and acquire funding from them for abortion. Its doublespeak.

[jefferiah]

Well, I want to thank Kimmy, since I forgot to do it. Thanks alot for making that post. I am sorry again for what I said about the Jesus Camp thread. What you did is very important for me, though you may think it is trivial.

[BC_chick]

I realize that not all feminists are radical, but some of the supporters of the feminist movement can be quite vocally radical. I found some quotes that may be of interest.....

I guess I was lucky, I learned of feminism in a first-year course from professors whose strongest belief was that feminism's biggest challenge is to not fall into the same dogma it fights to overcome. I remember hearing that the year before a couple of radical professors had taught that same first-year course, and needless to say they were no longer teaching that class when I started it. From what I hear, it put off a lot of the students. I remember wondering what I may have thought of feminism if such extreme views had been my first introduction to it.

So don't worry, these women are the fringes of feminism - if they're not ridiculed by their peers, they're more likely to turn women OFF of feminism, than they are in "converting" anyone to such preposterousness.

[jefferiah]

Fair enough, BC Chick, but even though you have seen this side of feminism which I am sure is the greater side (no doubt about it), where would you say Catch Me stands in this regard. In another thread she has referred to me as a mysogynist because I dont support subsidized abortion. Any argument I propose to the contrary is meaningless to her since abortion falls under the heading of feminism, it is a non-male issue. Case closed. And then she turns around and applies this to the public funding, which is not an issue exclusive to women. She says that men shouldnt tell her how to be feminist. Thats not the intent here, what happens when an issue or a proposed solution to an issue which affects not only women but the whole of the public is monopolized by a feminist because it happens to also fall under her jurisdiction. Is it mysogyny as she says to have an opinion? To express outrage. I am sure that you are a very fair woman. What happens when a woman is not fair? You assure me that no woman would ever think like that. Well, I am telling you some do. Just because you say you know a lot of feminists and they are quite reasonable, does that mean its impossible for a feminist group to nonetheless enact an unfair policy. Are they infallible? And if they are not, is a man allowed to stand against that. To Catch Me a man has no business, since he is not a woman. I am not trying to boss women around here. I am saying look, is it ridiculous to say that a man has every right to assert an argument on certain feminist issues since some of them affect more than females. Is this mysogyny? The Head of the Advisory Council on The Status of Women in NB calls Pro-lifers, "anti-choice" as if the intentions behind the movement were an attempt to stop women from choosing. Do you think that is fair? Is it fair for her to assert that lack of public funded abortion is discrimination? This is not some feminist of 30 years ago. Is it fair for her to say that lack of public funded abortion is an infringement on the rights to conscience and belief of the individual when abortion is actually legal? Since when do rights to belief and conscience entitle not only being able to do the thing you want but to take tax money to do so. Where is the right to conscience of the people who would not fund this?

[jbg]

Pay equity is not the only issue here. There is the gender parity issue which i think you will agree does open up a lot of doors for unfair decisions to be based on sex when there is no proof that all cases of inequal representation beforehand. I mean alot of people could point to a lot of things in society that are uneven.

Exactly. I don't believe that the government should micromanage who gets paid what. I agree that if wages are set in some bureaucratic, systematic manner people who perform similar functions for similar hours should receive equal pay. Beyond that, let the market decide.

For instance I dont know too many Prime Ministers (male or female) who have come from my part of the country. Nonetheless I am not going to outright blame the system of discrimination. Maybe we should enforce a law which says we have to alternate the prime minister every term based on which province he comes from?

I believe every resident of an Atlantic province who is not elected PM should sue.

Feminism is not just this equity issue. There are alot of feminists who look at my argument and rather than admit I have a point that they still dont agree with totally, they just say oh you are against equality. I would appreciate it if I could hear just one feminist say thats not fair. That it is wrong when this is done and done so blatantly and impulsively without any reasonable proof that someone believes what they believe because they are bigotted.

These days, organized feminism, just like organized gay rights, is about the power of their leaders. Period.

[jefferiah]

Lolol

"I believe every resident of an Atlantic province who is not elected PM should sue."

Will you be my lawyer JBG?

[Live From China]

These days, organized feminism, just like organized gay rights, is about the power of their leaders. Period.

Given the quotes that were listed in the very first post, I agree with this very strongly.

Such choice little bon mots, sometimes hidden under the guise of scholarship, are about power, anger and hatred.

[jbg]

These days, organized feminism, just like organized gay rights, is about the power of their leaders. Period.

Given the quotes that were listed in the very first post, I agree with this very strongly.

Such choice little bon mots, sometimes hidden under the guise of scholarship, are about power, anger and hatred.

Ditto Francophone advocates in Quebec and advocates of instruction, in the US, of academic subjects in Spanish.

[Catchme]

I realize that not all feminists are radical, but some of the supporters of the feminist movement can be quite vocally radical. I found some quotes that may be of interest.....

I guess I was lucky, I learned of feminism in a first-year course from professors whose strongest belief was that feminism's biggest challenge is to not fall into the same dogma it fights to overcome. I remember hearing that the year before a couple of radical professors had taught that same first-year course, and needles to say they were no longer teaching that class when I started it. From what I hear, it put off a lot of the students. I remember wondering what I may have thought of feminism if such extreme views had been my first introduction to it.

So don't worry, these women are the fringes of feminism - if they're not ridiculed by their peers, they're more likely to turn women OFF of feminism, than they are in "converting" anyone to such preposterousness.

I concur with this BC_Chick, when I was in university, I was approached by feminists on campus to join their ranks. At that time, what some have labelled as radical feminism, held NO interest for me, nor does it now. And I did not self-idenify as a feminist, I considered myself more of a humanist seeking equality rights for women. Many women also felt that same way and set out to change it. Hence the new wave of feminist thought. Many do not understand this, nor do they seek to so so.

However, the fundamental principal of the right to self determine has remained the foundation of feminists thought.

In our free access to medical care system, there can be NO discrimination. If there is discrimination for one funded "elective" surgery, there will soon be attacks on all "elective" sugeries. That is the way of it.

[Live From China]

I know that the angry "mouths" quoted at the beginning of this thread do not represent all women, and certainly not all feminists. Their rantings stand out not only because of their wild views, but because any of the quieter, more sane feminist voices are drowned out by the angry rhetoric. Or quite simply the more moderate voices are too busy working on issues that matter; too busy to take the time to respond.

Along this line, here is some food for thought:

American women outlive their male counterparts by nearly 10 years, control more than half the national wealth, and make up the majority of undergraduate students, law students, and voters. Skeptics are starting to question whether this is a group genuinely entitled to victim status. Never has such a privileged circle been represented by such an array of pedants claiming that a war is being waged against them, or has so cowed the media and the government into abandoning all standards of objectivity. It is an irony almost too delicious to contemplate: How did one of the most privileged sets of people in the history of the world, in terms of wealth, education, and political power, come to be represented by its self-appointed spokespersons and their media minions as a passel of cringing victims in need of special protection by an all-wise government?

(From http://www.reason.com/news/show/29521.html)

Specifically, this is a quote from a critique of the book Who Stole Feminism? by Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers.

[jefferiah]

I realize that not all feminists are radical, but some of the supporters of the feminist movement can be quite vocally radical. I found some quotes that may be of interest.....

I guess I was lucky, I learned of feminism in a first-year course from professors whose strongest belief was that feminism's biggest challenge is to not fall into the same dogma it fights to overcome. I remember hearing that the year before a couple of radical professors had taught that same first-year course, and needles to say they were no longer teaching that class when I started it. From what I hear, it put off a lot of the students. I remember wondering what I may have thought of feminism if such extreme views had been my first introduction to it.

So don't worry, these women are the fringes of feminism - if they're not ridiculed by their peers, they're more likely to turn women OFF of feminism, than they are in "converting" anyone to such preposterousness.

I concur with this BC_Chick, when I was in university, I was approached by feminists on campus to join their ranks. At that time, what some have labelled as radical feminism, held NO interest for me, nor does it now. And I did not self-idenify as a feminist, I considered myself more of a humanist seeking equality rights for women. Many women also felt that same way and set out to change it. Hence the new wave of feminist thought. Many do not understand this, nor do they seek to so so.

However, the fundamental principal of the right to self determine has remained the foundation of feminists thought.

In our free access to medical care system, there can be NO discrimination. If there is discrimination for one funded "elective" surgery, there will soon be attacks on all "elective" sugeries. That is the way of it.

Am I correct in saying that you believe the legitimacy of abortion as a necessary operation is a a woman's issue to be decided upon by women?

[jefferiah]

BY what strange twisted logic can you compare surgeries that aid life with those which seek to terminate a life?