Radical Feminism

[jbg]

A society that allows individuals to be free to choose is a successful society. Islamic societies should take note.

Exactly. Who can name me one successful Islmaic country?

[margrace]

Dianne Ablonczy said after she ran in the 2002 leadership campaigne for the Alliance party that this was the first time she ever realized the Glass Ceiling on women in leadership

[margrace]

The Clerk of a municipality was convicted of drunk driving after killing another person in an accident. He was sent to jail for two years. The assistant clerk took over and ran the office for that time with no extra renumeration. When he came back he took over and no mention was made of any pay or recongnition of the woman who did the job. She worked at near minimum wage even though she had the same training as the male clerk. Only Pay Equity finally got her a decent wage and that took a complete investigation into the municipal practises. The Reeve would regulary tell the women, if they dared to ask for a raise, that they should be d*** glad to even have a job.

[jefferiah]

The Clerk of a municipality was convicted of drunk driving after killing another person in an accident. He was sent to jail for two years. The assistant clerk took over and ran the office for that time with no extra renumeration. When he came back he took over and no mention was made of any pay or recongnition of the woman who did the job. She worked at near minimum wage even though she had the same training as the male clerk. Only Pay Equity finally got her a decent wage and that took a complete investigation into the municipal practises. The Reeve would regulary tell the women, if they dared to ask for a raise, that they should be d*** glad to even have a job.

But see Margrace the difference is in how you and I look at it. I think cases of this nature should be handled on the individual level, I have no doubt you can find an example of where a woman was a victim of discrimination, does that make all cases the same. Pay equity is not the only issue here. There is the gender parity issue which i think you will agree does open up a lot of doors for unfair decisions to be based on sex when there is no proof that all cases of inequal representation beforehand. I mean alot of people could point to a lot of things in society that are uneven. For instance I dont know too many Prime Ministers (male or female) who have come from my part of the country. Nonetheless I am not going to outright blame the system of discrimination. Maybe we should enforce a law which says we have to alternate the prime minister every term based on which province he comes from?

Feminism is not just this equity issue. There are alot of feminists who look at my argument and rather than admit I have a point that they still dont agree with totally, they just say oh you are against equality. I would appreciate it if I could hear just one feminist say thats not fair. That it is wrong when this is done and done so blatantly and impulsively without any reasonable proof that someone believes what they believe because they are bigotted.

[Liam]

I dont think there is anything false about it. Catch Me said its mysogynism to disagree with a feminist, unless you are female.

My opinion is that if you disagree with feminism, you are a mysogynist. Note: I said feminism, not feminists. ("Feminism" = the movement that stresses womens' equality and the drive to open society to equal opportunity in treatment, jobs, education, etc.) If someone disagrees with the equality of women, I would consider that person a mysogynist.

It's an entirely different thing to disagree with certain feminists or even with the tactics of the feminist movement or radical statements made by certain people. Criticising those are completely fair game, in my opinion.

[margrace]

I dont think there is anything false about it. Catch Me said its mysogynism to disagree with a feminist, unless you are female.

My opinion is that if you disagree with feminism, you are a mysogynist. Note: I said feminism, not feminists. ("Feminism" = the movement that stresses womens' equality and the drive to open society to equal opportunity in treatment, jobs, education, etc.) If someone disagrees with the equality of women, I would consider that person a mysogynist.

It's an entirely different thing to disagree with certain feminists or even with the tactics of the feminist movement or radical statements made by certain people. Criticising those are completely fair game, in my opinion.

Interesting the Diane Ablonczy item was totally ignored.

[jefferiah]

I will make another point. The head of the Advisory Council for The Status of Women in my province writes an article in one of our newspapers. In her articles she claims it is discrimination that there is limited access to abortion doctors in our province. Actually there is limited access to a lot of things in NB and this is easily explanable since we are a pretty small and rural province. Limited access concerning anything is just a fact of life here.

But anyways she believes that NB should subsidize abortions. As her defence she uses the argument in her articles that people have a right to belief and a right to conscience. But its unfair to say that this right is being breached since abortion is legal. But she says that the province should provide greater access to free abortion. Some people cant afford it. But I say well that's just a fact of life. To you that may sound harsh, but look at it this way.

Many of the tax-payers are pro-life. (She refers to them as anti-choice in her articles by the way, which I think is unfair). Now while she or alot of people here may not agree with the Pro-Life position, it seems she does agree with freedom of belief and conscience. So if abortion is legal there is no freedom of conscience being violated for her, but where does her pro-choice stance regarding conscience disappear when it comes to people who would not be willing to fund public abortion.

Now, I dont think all feminists would agree with this woman. I realize that. But nonetheless is it reasonable to say that disagreeing with a feminist is not necessarily mysogyny, which is the belief that Catch Me expressed.

[jefferiah]

I dont think there is anything false about it. Catch Me said its mysogynism to disagree with a feminist, unless you are female.

My opinion is that if you disagree with feminism, you are a mysogynist. Note: I said feminism, not feminists. ("Feminism" = the movement that stresses womens' equality and the drive to open society to equal opportunity in treatment, jobs, education, etc.) If someone disagrees with the equality of women, I would consider that person a mysogynist.

It's an entirely different thing to disagree with certain feminists or even with the tactics of the feminist movement or radical statements made by certain people. Criticising those are completely fair game, in my opinion.

Well what about a movement for equality stressing the equality of both sexes. Wouldnt that be preferable to a movement for equality only named after one sex?

[jefferiah]

I dont think there is anything false about it. Catch Me said its mysogynism to disagree with a feminist, unless you are female.

My opinion is that if you disagree with feminism, you are a mysogynist. Note: I said feminism, not feminists. ("Feminism" = the movement that stresses womens' equality and the drive to open society to equal opportunity in treatment, jobs, education, etc.) If someone disagrees with the equality of women, I would consider that person a mysogynist.

It's an entirely different thing to disagree with certain feminists or even with the tactics of the feminist movement or radical statements made by certain people. Criticising those are completely fair game, in my opinion.

Interesting the Diane Ablonczy item was totally ignored.

I am sorry Margrace I will have to read about this. Give me a day or so.

[M.Dancer]

I realize that not all feminists are radical, but some of the supporters of the feminist movement can be quite vocally radical. I found some quotes that may be of interest.

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE." Marilyn French (her emphasis)

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist". Ti-Grace Atkinson, Amazon Odyssey (p. 86).

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." -- Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan

"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French Author, "The Women's Room"

"The end of the institution of marriage is a necessary condition for the liberation of women. Therefore it is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands..." -Declaration of Feminism

"The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist." -U.S. National organization for Women Times.

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, MS. Magazine Editor

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

Some, if not most of these quotes are so old they have cobwebs.

[Charles Anthony]

Guys, the thread is becoming a scroller-coaster.

Greg wants us to cut down on excessive quoting. It is not necessary to repeat entire previous posts.

Please check out these threads:

Using the [ Quote ] Feature: Avoid using more too many quotes!

Trim Your Posts and Quotes, Don't just hit "Reply"

[jefferiah]

Even if the quotes are old (I didnt check the dates on them) we have at least established that Catch Me, who I assume is not living in some sort of time anomaly, does not condemn them.

[kimmy]

Lol. Well I think you will notice that I said not all feminists are like this. But I think these quotes would cause some concern from most feminists. And I think if they read some of the quotes of people like Gloria Steinem perhaps more of them would be loathe to associate themselves with them.

No kidding. As a matter of fact, *nobody* my age is willing to call themselves a feminist, because the word feminist has become so associated with radicals that everybody else is embarrassed to call themselves a feminist. It's been that way for longer than I've been alive.

But the Lol at the first of my post---I'll explain that now.

You asked if I had a point. And I asked if you had a problem with me posting these quotes. And now it seems your course of action is to say we could easily dig up some Christian quotes. No doubt. And may I point its already been done. In fact, if I remember correctly it was you who made mention of a desire to attack a young girl if she approached you to proselytize a la Jesus Camp.

I never once said I'd attack the little Jesus-freak, and in fact I condemned the remarks of the people who said they would. It's rather pathetic of you to attempt to misrepresent my views in this manner. You and "betsy" should get together and re-read the part about bearing false witness. Baby Jesus would be very disappointed in you.

Yeah, funny that of all the groups I could have mentioned, fundamentalist Christians was the first one that came to mind. Wonder why that was. Hmm, maybe this guy had something to do with it. hmm. Oh well.

I had hoped that maybe pointing out that using people like Dworkin to smear feminism as a whole is as unfair as using people like Robertson to smear Christians as a whole. But it appears that you were unable to make the connection. Oh well.

But I havent threatened to beat up these whacko feminists who made these quotes. I am just spreading the word.

Ah yes. Spreading the word that "Feminism is not all roses." Congratulations, you're fighting a fight that's been over for at least 20 years. Woo-hoo, go Jeffy.

-k

[jefferiah]

You will notice Kimmy, that I said "if I remember correctly".

[kimmy]

You will notice Kimmy, that I said "if I remember correctly".

So you go around smearing people and blame it on your shitty memory? If you were any kind of man you'd apologize.

-k

[jefferiah]

While I am certain sure you don't agree with the views expressed in those quotes, Kimmy, or as you say you don't associate yourself with feminists, there are people who do today nonetheless, and some of them can be quite unreasonable. And when you criticize this you are automatically a mysogynist as someone else on this forum has shown us. She didnt say this 20 or 30 years ago. And if you read my post about the woman from the advisory council I think it is ridiculous for her to call it discrimination just because women can't get free abortions. And its discrimination to argue with her as well.

Furthermore I think that there are probably a lot of great things that the Advisory Council does. I understand that they do great work for women who are victims of abuse, and other such things. I just think it is highly unreasonable to suggest that Pro-Lifers (some of whom are women, all of whom are tax-payers) are discriminating against women, not just because they don't condone abortion, but because they assert that perhaps freedom to self-determine should cover the freedom to self-determine whether we all should fund public abortions.

Also, I realize that whoever said (if I was wrong about it being you) they would inflict violence on a proselytizer was probably not serious and would never do so in real life. Nonetheless you accuse me of stooping to a low level for using that, which may be true, but it was in response to you diverting attention away from my original topic by pointing out that quotes from Christians could be mocked as well. This has been done, Kimmy. And if I was wrong about how you said it, you were definitely instrumental in posting about it. So why is it so bad if I do the same thing.

[jefferiah]

You will notice Kimmy, that I said "if I remember correctly".

So you go around smearing people and blame it on your shitty memory? If you were any kind of man you'd apologize.

-k

If you were any kind of woman, you would be honest enough with yourself to see that I have been quite fair with you.

[kimmy]

And if I was wrong about how you said it, you were definitely instrumental in posting about it. So why is it so bad if I do the same thing.

What is bad is that you grossly misrepresented my opinion, and I notice still have not apologized for it.

You opened the thread with a bunch of quotes (old ones, as Dancer points out) that for reasons Fleabag already explained, just looked like a slam on feminists.

(If I posted a bunch of the worst quotes from the most embarrassing Christian leaders, with no context and no explanation other than "just getting the word out", how would people take it? How do you think Christian readers would interpret that message?)

Now, after a whole bunch of backpedalling and shifting of gears, you actually want to talk about an issue in New Brunswick regarding abortion access. hmmm, maybe if you'd said as much when I asked "do you have a point?" we'd have avoided all of this unpleasantness.

-k

[jefferiah]

And if I was wrong about how you said it, you were definitely instrumental in posting about it. So why is it so bad if I do the same thing.

What is bad is that you grossly misrepresented my opinion, and I notice still have not apologized for it.

You opened the thread with a bunch of quotes (old ones, as Dancer points out) that for reasons Fleabag already explained, just looked like a slam on feminists.

(If I posted a bunch of the worst quotes from the most embarrassing Christian leaders, with no context and no explanation other than "just getting the word out", how would people take it? How do you think Christian readers would interpret that message?)

Now, after a whole bunch of backpedalling and shifting of gears, you actually want to talk about an issue in New Brunswick regarding abortion access. hmmm, maybe if you'd said as much when I asked "do you have a point?" we'd have avoided all of this unpleasantness.

-k

Well, actually for instance in the Jesus Camp thread there was a You Tube video given and sort of a message about it being a cause for concern. I didnt just post the quotes, I said that not all feminists were like this nonetheless these are some interesting quotes. Also the topic was radical feminism. Which implies a certain brand of feminism, does it not. As the Jesus Camp thread would also imply a very select branch of Christians.

[kimmy]

If you were any kind of woman, you would be honest enough with yourself to see that I have been quite fair with you.

Go do a backflip into an empty pool.

[Black Dog]

I had hoped that maybe pointing out that using people like Dworkin to smear feminism as a whole is as unfair as using people like Robertson to smear Christians as a whole. But it appears that you were unable to make the connection. Oh well.

I would add that I wonder how many people who use Dworkin (or indeed, any of the women cited) to slam feminism have actually read more of them than just the quotes in question? Context! I need context!

[jefferiah]

And my point is not about the abortion issue selectively, but about a not uncommon feminist view which I think is radical that people who dissent from the views of feminists are all bigots. This view is not something which only existed 20 years ago and no longer exists today, nor or the discriminatory views which feminism was created to eradicate. I think my posts indicate that women can be unfair. I think the posts of Catch Me illustrate that she believes it is wrong to say that a feminists views regarding feminism could be wrong is quite unfair, and is basically license for her to disregard any dissension whatsoever that could come from a male who is being reasonable. I said that I do not stand by B. Max's views. If you will say to me you dont agree with her, and that disagreeing with a feminist is not mysogyny. I would be very pleased. And I will apologize to you. In fact since my infraction occured first, I will say "I am sorry Kimmy for bringing that Jesus thread up." Is that fair enough?

[jefferiah]

I had hoped that maybe pointing out that using people like Dworkin to smear feminism as a whole is as unfair as using people like Robertson to smear Christians as a whole. But it appears that you were unable to make the connection. Oh well.

I would add that I wonder how many people who use Dworkin (or indeed, any of the women cited) to slam feminism have actually read more of them than just the quotes in question? Context! I need context!

Context. Jeez. I have quotes there saying its a good thing for a man to be unjustly accused of rape. What kind of context can that be viewed in that makes it ok?

[Black Dog]

Context. Jeez. I have quotes there saying its a good thing for a man to be unjustly accused of rape. What kind of context can that be viewed in that makes it ok?

Dude, that's not even what the quote actually says:

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

That doesn't mean they should be unjustly acussed or rape or that its a good thing for men to be unjustly accussed of rape. Let me put it this way: children who put their hands on hot stoves can sometimes gain from the experience.

Context! More context!

[jefferiah]

Context. Jeez. I have quotes there saying its a good thing for a man to be unjustly accused of rape. What kind of context can that be viewed in that makes it ok?

Dude, that's not even what the quote actually says:

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

That doesn't mean they should be unjustly acussed or rape or that its a good thing for men to be unjustly accussed of rape. Let me put it this way: children who put their hands on hot stoves can sometimes gain from the experience.

Context! More context!

Even so Black Dog, imagine a person says a black man could gain from the experience of slavery.