Radical Feminism

[jefferiah]

Basically if society takes measures to keep men in check or other groups in check because of the possibility that they are totally unfair in the way they do business. But why do we assume that feminists cannot also be unfair or cannot be prone to bad logic, that they do not need to be kept in check. Do you believe that only men can be unfair? Is it not possible that in some cases the word "equality" can be abused by those who purport to seek it, or that even if not abusing it that they can be wrong in some cases? Is it bigotted to think a feminist can be wrong?

Look this is NOT about men, and yes if it is a man thinking a feminist is wrong, then it is misogyny, as then the male has set himslf up to know more than the female, even though as male is quitye obviously not female, and thus could never know.

And that is not saying some females can not be wrong, please keep in mind not all females are feminists, just as not all males are misogynists. In fact there are a good number of feminist males. For example Plato is considered on of the earliest.

Feminisn, has progressed, or shall we say changed, over the years and centuries, fundamentals have remianed, such as no debate on the rights of self determination.

wiki though not the best does address a broad range of info for those who seriously want to discuss feminism outside of the right to self determine should read.

Many feminists today argue that feminism is a grass-roots movement that seeks to cross boundaries based on social class, race, culture and religion. They also argue that an effective feminist movement should be culturally specific and address issues relevant to the women of the society in question such as female genital cutting in Africa and the Middle East and the "glass ceiling" issue in developed economies. They also debate the extent to which certain societal issues such as rape, incest and mothering are universal. Themes explored in feminism include patriarchy, stereotyping, sexual objectification and oppression

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminists

LOl Catch me. That is completely ridiculous. It is mysogyny for a man to think a feminist could be wrong. Maybe you really believe this. I dont know. If its not your intent, you should at least be aware that this accusation provides a very convenient way to disregard any dissent at all. By this logic, if a feminist wanted to crown herself world dictator it would be wrong to stop her.

I speaking in only regards to feminism, feminist thought and regarding woman's self determination, not the broader world, I had thought I was quite clear on that. And reading back I see, yes, I was.

__________________________________

Men in history used to be very effeminent as opposed to today's men, they wore: long hair, make up, wigs, heels on their pumps, plus bows ruffles and lace. Men who use women's equality rights to try a frame a discussion around the fact that is why there are effeminent men today have no basis in fact to do so.

I never even said anything about effiminate men. Anyways actually yes why cant a feminist be wrong, and why cant a man point out that she has unfair ideas if indeed she does. That is not mysogyny. Thats criticism. Suppose I labelled all my arguments against feminism Male Protectionism (which I wont do) but that would make all your defenses arguments against my position. And you would be a man-hater.

[B. Max]

Mysogyny means hatred of women. So to disagree with anything a feminist says means you hate women. So my disagreement with the sentiments of the women I quoted makes me a mysogynist apparently. Now my appeal to the other posters is this. After seeing what Catch Me has said regarding Mysogyny, can any feminists out there concede that there are feminists who are basically the female equivalents of B. Max.

Why do you keep dragging my name into it as if there is something wrong with what I said. I gave you the historical perspective on why women are the way they are.

[jefferiah]

Dear jefferiah,

The quotes are simply awareness.

Very well, my apologies. However, without context, (whether or not you agreed with them, for example) motivation or intent is open to interpretation. For example, if I were to cut & paste some racist jokes from some skinhead sites, and said it was simply FYI, I think I could reasonable expect to be reported, even if my original intent was to say, "Look at what these morons believe! Why do we allow them to reproduce?!" Without the caveat of intent, some people would get their nickers in a twist.

Feminism is not all roses

This says a ton more, and then becomes a debatable point, one that I agree with you upon. But, really, is there a difference betwwen 'feminism' and radicalism? Or is it simply the bleatings of a special interest group? Is 'equality' (of not just the sexes, but of races and abilities)greater than 'feminism', or are they 'equal but different'?

Once again I will point out the difference to you. The racist jokes could mean you think they are funny or that you are spreading awareness. I think it was well understood that I was not in support of these quotes.

[jefferiah]

Ah, hell. Ok Thelonius Monk Flea Bag, in the future I will try to remember to state my intent.

[Catchme]

It is quite simple really if you hate or disagree with women's equality you in fact hate women, or hate women being equal, and yes it is as simple as that.

[Charles Anthony]

Point of order, guys:

Half of the posts in this thread contain loads and loads of whitespace and repetition of ENTIRE PREVIOUS posts. That is completely unnecessary. Avoid too much quoting!

Please check out these threads:

Using the [ Quote ] Feature: Avoid using more too many quotes!

Trim Your Posts and Quotes, Don't just hit "Reply"

Do not let threads turn into scroller-coaster rides.

[jefferiah]

It is quite simple really if you hate or disagree with women's equality you in fact hate women, or hate women being equal, and yes it is as simple as that.

Ah but suppose a woman asserts that there is an inequality somewhere and she makes the accusation unfairly. Then what? If I point out to her that she is wrong, or state my own case is this mysogyny. Who says that the feminist view is always on par with true equality? Do you think that the quotes I posted were examples of true equality. Do you think the assertion that heterosexual sex is degrading to women is true? Or the quote about all men being rapists. If I dare to disagree with her, well I am damned by you, because that mysogyny, right?

Suppose a woman comes into my store (I dont own a store, by the way) and sees five men employed and says I am a bigot because I hired no females. Well I say I put up a help wanted sign and only men applied. I would have hired a female. But she becomes unreasonable and says oh yeah I'll just bet you would. And I want to defend myself then. What? Am I not allowed to argue. If humans can be wrong, is it not natural to assume that humans who belong to the feminist movement can also make wrong judgements. And if they do why is it bigotted to try to point that out and defend your own views?

[jefferiah]

Anyways, I would like to thank you Catch Me, because you have inadvertently very instrumental in helping me make the point I was trying to make. In fact, I think you made it more clear than I possibly could have.

[RB]

It is quite simple really if you hate or disagree with women's equality you in fact hate women, or hate women being equal, and yes it is as simple as that.

Ah but suppose a woman asserts that there is an inequality somewhere and she makes the accusation unfairly. ....

Suppose a woman comes into my store (I dont own a store, by the way) and sees five men employed and says I am a bigot because I hired no females.

If you were a company hiring only males then I would presume you intentionally do not advertise where the females are found nor have to desire for opportunity to meet with more qualified folks. Females would never know of your jobs.

This is the same situation found in politics, in senior management positions of companies, in previously male domination occupational types

I mean in a country where the female population surpassed the male population only a handful of female are found in the Harper government....and he has recently downsize the number of females.

You believe females do not wish to be Politicians? Judges? Doctors? Engineers? These are occupations kids gaze at when they are young.

So answer this, what usually happens to the female that would halt their quest to be a Prime Minister?

[Canadian Blue]

You believe females do not wish to be Politicians? Judges? Doctors? Engineers? These are occupations kids gaze at when they are young.

In my town we had one of the first female MLA's. This constituency back in the 40's and 50's was primarily white, agricultural, rural, socially conservative, and christian. How did we have a female MLA, easy, the people liked her and found she did a good job.

So answer this, what usually happens to the female that would halt their quest to be a Prime Minister?

I don't know, who doesn't dream of becoming a soldier, police officer, firefighter, or doctor. However when you grow up priorities change, and so do your dream's. It's not a female only problem, as female's have become engaged in politics and have been successful [Margarat Thatcher, Deb Grey, Kim Campbell, Merkel, etc]

If a woman is running for PM the people will vote based on whether or not she will do a good job, it's not going to make much of a difference what sex she is.

[jefferiah]

It is quite simple really if you hate or disagree with women's equality you in fact hate women, or hate women being equal, and yes it is as simple as that.

Ah but suppose a woman asserts that there is an inequality somewhere and she makes the accusation unfairly. ....

Suppose a woman comes into my store (I dont own a store, by the way) and sees five men employed and says I am a bigot because I hired no females.

If you were a company hiring only males then I would presume you intentionally do not advertise where the females are found nor have to desire for opportunity to meet with more qualified folks. Females would never know of your jobs.

This is the same situation found in politics, in senior management positions of companies, in previously male domination occupational types

I mean in a country where the female population surpassed the male population only a handful of female are found in the Harper government....and he has recently downsize the number of females.

You believe females do not wish to be Politicians? Judges? Doctors? Engineers? These are occupations kids gaze at when they are young.

So answer this, what usually happens to the female that would halt their quest to be a Prime Minister?

See but your presumption is sort of ridiculous. I put up a help wanted sign. You dont think its possible that only men would apply in that situation. It automatically was a conscious effort to keep women out. Thats ridiculous. And its unfounded. This is the type of illogical thinking I point to in the socialist method of attaining equality----as I have stated elsewhere, more than once. It operates under the assumption that in a perfect society numbers would magically even out. I can imagine a lot of situations to explain the difference that would be quite in line, and not constitute discrimination. You just look at a few face values and say well this must be bigotry. It cant be anything else. No other explanation. And thats that. Actually to tell you the truth I do believe there are less females interested in politics than men. Which may not be a good thing because I think there are a lot of women who would agree with my position.

[August1991]

If you were a company hiring only males then I would presume you intentionally do not advertise where the females are found nor have to desire for opportunity to meet with more qualified folks. Females would never know of your jobs.

If a private company hired only males - ignoring more qualified females - it would soon find itself with a falling share price as competitors hired the competent females.

You believe females do not wish to be Politicians? Judges? Doctors? Engineers? These are occupations kids gaze at when they are young.

So answer this, what usually happens to the female that would halt their quest to be a Prime Minister?

If a woman is competent, then hire her. You'd be a fool not to.

RB, the proof is in the pudding.

[jefferiah]

In another thread I told the story of a friend who works for an IT company. The IT company has a quota for so many women to be hired, but believe it or not, they are not applying in droves. However, male applicants are coming in droves. But since the quota requires women every ten qualified males to one qualified female who apply are turned away. Does this not illustrate the fact that it is possible for a woman to not apply? And it wouldnt make sense to say that they were advertising in such a way as to keep women out, since they were required to fill a quota. Do you think all things magically even out in life? If you toss confetti up in the air and hold out your left hand and your right hand, will just as much confetti land in your left as in your right? If more lands in your right hand was your left hand necessarily discriminated against?

[Liam]

Feminism is not all roses. The quotes are simply awareness. Maybe they will change the way people view a person who says he/she would never support these movements. Even the great Gloria Steinem, she had some pretty whack things to say about how destroying the institution of marriage was a necessary step in liberation (and capitalism as well).

I have a tough time recalling anyone who claimed feminism was all roses, but I take umbrage with anyone claiming it did no good.

I also have a problem when someone only publishes the most extreme and worst side of a particular philosophy or belief system when there is a lot of good to balance out the few points of bad. As someone else said, it would be just as easy to find a myriad of quotes spoken by men of faith. Would it be fair to cast all of the faithful as evil or mean based on the words of a few whackos? Would it be fair to ignore all the good that religion has done? No.

I don't think many of us would want to live in a pre-feminist world. I am a single dad with two little girls. Thanks to feminism, my girls will grow up with professional and personal doors open to them that were closed to their grandmothers. We all know that's true. Just because there were a small handful of verbal molotov-cocktail throwers in the feminist midst does not make feminism itself evil or hateful anymore than taking quotes from Pat Robertson makes Christianity evil.

[jefferiah]

If you were a company hiring only males then I would presume you intentionally do not advertise where the females are found nor have to desire for opportunity to meet with more qualified folks. Females would never know of your jobs.

If a private company hired only males - ignoring more qualified females - it would soon find itself with a falling share price as competitors hired the competent females.

Well yes, thats true but I dont think you understood my story. I opened (theoretically)a store like a Needs Convenience. Why would it be so odd that if my store only has five employees that all of them could be men, or women for that matter? The reason I used such a small store is because its a lot easier to illustrate a point when its a smaller matter. Of course in a larger business if every employee was male then you could say well something is rotten in Denmark. But, if the positions in a large business dont naturally even out does it necessarily imply that human resources was bigotted?

[Liam]

Do you think that the quotes I posted were examples of true equality.

No. I suspect finding balance or finiding equality or even pointing out the errors of a particular thought (feminism) was not your intent. I suspect your intent at posting those quotes was to cast all feminism in a bad light.

[August1991]

Thanks to feminism, my girls will grow up with professional and personal doors open to them that were closed to their grandmothers. We all know that's true.

Feminism? I think rather that it was individuals seeking a profitable niche. How else to explain that a majority of real estate brokers in Canada are now women but a majority of stock brokers are men.

A society that allows individuals to be free to choose is a successful society. Islamic societies should take note.

Just because there were a small handful of verbal molotov-cocktail throwers in the feminist midst does not make feminism itself evil or hateful anymore than taking quotes from Pat Robertson makes Christianity evil.

Going back to the OP, I'm still trying to figure out - like Kimmy - what was the point of listing all those quotes.

People say weird things sometimes. So what?

[jefferiah]

Feminism is not all roses. The quotes are simply awareness. Maybe they will change the way people view a person who says he/she would never support these movements. Even the great Gloria Steinem, she had some pretty whack things to say about how destroying the institution of marriage was a necessary step in liberation (and capitalism as well).

I have a tough time recalling anyone who claimed feminism was all roses, but I take umbrage with anyone claiming it did no good.

I also have a problem when someone only publishes the most extreme and worst side of a particular philosophy or belief system when there is a lot of good to balance out the few points of bad. As someone else said, it would be just as easy to find a myriad of quotes spoken by men of faith. Would it be fair to cast all of the faithful as evil or mean based on the words of a few whackos? Would it be fair to ignore all the good that religion has done? No.

I don't think many of us would want to live in a pre-feminist world. I am a single dad with two little girls. Thanks to feminism, my girls will grow up with professional and personal doors open to them that were closed to their grandmothers. We all know that's true. Just because there were a small handful of verbal molotov-cocktail throwers in the feminist midst does not make feminism itself evil or hateful anymore than taking quotes from Pat Robertson makes Christianity evil.

Ok thats a good point Liam. I am not going to argue with that. What I am pointing out is that if something goes under the label feminist or purports to seek fairness and equality does that make it necessarily so? Can I object to it if I find a policy that they promote is not logical? Catch Me says it is mysogyny to do so, and I have run into this sort of thinking from alot of feminists. Its not so uncommon. "If you dont agree with me you dont believe in equality." That's the sentiment.

[jefferiah]

Do you think that the quotes I posted were examples of true equality.

No. I suspect finding balance or finiding equality or even pointing out the errors of a particular thought (feminism) was not your intent. I suspect your intent at posting those quotes was to cast all feminism in a bad light.

Thats a highly unfair assertion based on absolutely nothing. If you read what I said before the post, I said something along the lines of I know not all feminists are like this. You are making assumptions. I am giving reasonable arguments. Do people who claim to support equality and fairness hold the monopoly on those things simply because they identify themselves with those terms? Is it possible that they can be wrong? When they are wrong is it wrong to point this out to them? Can one safely do this without being labelled a bigot?

[jefferiah]

If you were a company hiring only males then I would presume you intentionally do not advertise where the females are found nor have to desire for opportunity to meet with more qualified folks. Females would never know of your jobs.

If a private company hired only males - ignoring more qualified females - it would soon find itself with a falling share price as competitors hired the competent females.

You believe females do not wish to be Politicians? Judges? Doctors? Engineers? These are occupations kids gaze at when they are young.

So answer this, what usually happens to the female that would halt their quest to be a Prime Minister?

If a woman is competent, then hire her. You'd be a fool not to.

RB, the proof is in the pudding.

See I agree entirely with this August. I would hire her. The point of my story was it was a small store where the employees being all male, or even all female could conceivably happen, and that fact that things dont pan out evenly doesnt necessarily mean any one was discriminated against. Of course it is unrealistic to assume that a great deal of fuss is raised over small stores, but its easier to make the point that things dont work out magically even with something small.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear jefferiah,

QUOTE(Catchme @ Jan 14 2007, 10:39 PM)

It is quite simple really if you hate or disagree with women's equality you in fact hate women, or hate women being equal, and yes it is as simple as that.

Anyways, I would like to thank you Catch Me, because you have inadvertently very instrumental in helping me make the point I was trying to make. In fact, I think you made it more clear than I possibly could have.

Indeed, this argument is pretty much the epitome of the 'false dichotomy'.

August1991,

QUOTE(Liam @ Jan 15 2007, 12:36 AM)

Thanks to feminism, my girls will grow up with professional and personal doors open to them that were closed to their grandmothers. We all know that's true.

Feminism? I think rather that it was individuals seeking a profitable niche

I am afraid Liam is more right than you. If they are 'profit able' now, then they would have been equally so before now. Such was not the case. In fact, WWII did more to put women in the workforce than either feminism or 'free enterprise'.

[RB]

I clearly DISAGREE with your positions that a female can climb the corporate ladder at any point given that she is serious, competent, talent, educated and can perform better than the incompetent males with their unearned priviledges

Men reproduce themselves in power which is why a female never enters the sphere of bargaining with men.

How proud and soon to name 3 women from a difference century immediately who have done well.

Why not give number of countries worldwide and the equal amounts of representation of the sexes of presidents, ministers, leaders etc.

your percentage should read 5% to 95% female to male ratio - and you tell me that women are doing very well

[jefferiah]

I clearly DISAGREE with your positions that a female can climb the corporate ladder at any point given that she is serious, competent, talent, educated and can perform better than the incompetent males with their unearned priviledges

Men reproduce themselves in power which is why a female never enters the sphere of bargaining with men.

How proud and soon to name 3 women from a difference century immediately who have done well.

Why not give number of countries worldwide and the equal amounts of representation of the sexes of presidents, ministers, leaders etc.

your percentage should read 5% to 95% female to male ratio - and you tell me that women are doing very well

Explain how you would enforce gender parity in politics without infringing on democracy. As I said in another thread if you make a move to enforce that all political parties have the same amount of women and men in them, then you still can't gaurantee gender parity because they havent been elected yet. If fifty percent of the Candidates from every party are women, and fifty percent of the candidates over all are woman who says that 50 percent of the people are going to vote for them. And if they dont, what do you propose we do?

[jefferiah]

Dear jefferiah,

QUOTE(Catchme @ Jan 14 2007, 10:39 PM)

It is quite simple really if you hate or disagree with women's equality you in fact hate women, or hate women being equal, and yes it is as simple as that.

Anyways, I would like to thank you Catch Me, because you have inadvertently very instrumental in helping me make the point I was trying to make. In fact, I think you made it more clear than I possibly could have.

Indeed, this argument is pretty much the epitome of the 'false dichotomy'.

August1991,

QUOTE(Liam @ Jan 15 2007, 12:36 AM)

Thanks to feminism, my girls will grow up with professional and personal doors open to them that were closed to their grandmothers. We all know that's true.

Feminism? I think rather that it was individuals seeking a profitable niche

I am afraid Liam is more right than you. If they are 'profit able' now, then they would have been equally so before now. Such was not the case. In fact, WWII did more to put women in the workforce than either feminism or 'free enterprise'.

I dont think there is anything false about it. Catch Me said its mysogynism to disagree with a feminist, unless you are female. You don't think that proves there are real radical feminists out there. Also in one of her posts she reiterate the quotes I originally made, and she did not even express an "I dont support this". One of the quotes said that men can benefit from being falsely accused of rape. Her response was that people don't understand the quotes, and maybe men should learn from them. And according to her standard, it would be mysogyny not to. Imagine if someone said Rodney King can benefit alot from a good beating.

[jefferiah]

Another thing is what does the percentage of women worldwide have to do with Canada. I think women do have a pretty good chance of competing in society. Even though discrimination does exist I dont think they are so bad that enacting interventionist policies are mandatory. Because enacting an interventionist policy imposes on individual freedom. Showing me numbers means nothing. How can you prove that in all situations where numbers dont even out, that it was due to discrimination? And if they are uneven in some situations without discrimination, then it is not fair to enact a system which would rectify this. For instance there is the hiring quota I mentioned at the IT company. Male applicants are being denied in favour of female applicants who arent showing up. Does this mean that men are binding these women and gagging them? Is this the only explanation you can imagine for an uneven situation?