Radical Feminism

[jefferiah]

I realize that not all feminists are radical, but some of the supporters of the feminist movement can be quite vocally radical. I found some quotes that may be of interest.

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE." Marilyn French (her emphasis)

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist". Ti-Grace Atkinson, Amazon Odyssey (p. 86).

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." -- Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan

"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French Author, "The Women's Room"

"The end of the institution of marriage is a necessary condition for the liberation of women. Therefore it is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands..." -Declaration of Feminism

"The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist." -U.S. National organization for Women Times.

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, MS. Magazine Editor

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

[B. Max]

16 Unto the woman he said,

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;

in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

and thy desire shall be to thy husband,

and he shall rule over thee.

http://www.bartleby.com/108/01/3.html#S3

[kimmy]

I realize that not all feminists are radical, but some of the supporters of the feminist movement can be quite vocally radical. I found some quotes that may be of interest.

Do you have a point?

-k

[jefferiah]

I realize that not all feminists are radical, but some of the supporters of the feminist movement can be quite vocally radical. I found some quotes that may be of interest.

Do you have a point?

-k

Do you have a problem?

[kimmy]

Do you have a point?

Do you have a problem?

I'm confused as to whether you're trying to say something, or if you just thought it was rich comedy, or if you're hoping to create some sort of debate, or what.

I'm sure we could find an equally damning bunch of quotes from some fundamentalist Christians, or just about any other group for that matter, but I'm not sure what the point would be.

-k

[jefferiah]

Do you have a point?

Do you have a problem?

I'm confused as to whether you're trying to say something, or if you just thought it was rich comedy, or if you're hoping to create some sort of debate, or what.

I'm sure we could find an equally damning bunch of quotes from some fundamentalist Christians, or just about any other group for that matter, but I'm not sure what the point would be.

-k

Lol. Well I think you will notice that I said not all feminists are like this. But I think these quotes would cause some concern from most feminists. And I think if they read some of the quotes of people like Gloria Steinem perhaps more of them would be loathe to associate themselves with them. But the Lol at the first of my post---I'll explain that now.

You asked if I had a point. And I asked if you had a problem with me posting these quotes. And now it seems your course of action is to say we could easily dig up some Christian quotes. No doubt. And may I point its already been done. In fact, if I remember correctly it was you who made mention of a desire to attack a young girl if she approached you to proselytize a la Jesus Camp. But I havent threatened to beat up these whacko feminists who made these quotes. I am just spreading the word.

[Drea]

16 Unto the woman he said,

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;

in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;

and thy desire shall be to thy husband,

and he shall rule over thee.

http://www.bartleby.com/108/01/3.html#S3

I will bet you 20 million dollars that this was not written by a.) a woman or b.) an invisible entity.

It was written by men. Human men who, in their era, saw women as property to be controlled.

... and the world is flat AND the sun orbits the earth...

We no longer believe the above, so why do some people continue to believe words written over 2000 years ago?

[B. Max]

We no longer believe the above, so why do some people continue to believe words written over 2000 years ago?

Why should someone believe the words of an atheist written today who likely doesn't have twenty million dollars to bet.

The words written over two thousands years ago have proven correct.

[Catchme]

I will bet you 20 million dollars that this was not written by a.) a woman or b.) an invisible entity.

It was written by men. Human men who, in their era, saw women as property to be controlled.

... and the world is flat AND the sun orbits the earth...

We no longer believe the above, so why do some people continue to believe words written over 2000 years ago?

Good points, and quotes are usless taken out of context, either in the greater literary world, or indeed within the BIBle world.

But I would suggest some men really need to contemplate some of them anyway to really take a look at themselves and their actions, honestly.

such as:

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE." Marilyn French (her emphasis)

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, MS. Magazine Editor

[Catchme]

We no longer believe the above, so why do some people continue to believe words written over 2000 years ago?

Why should someone believe the words of an atheist written today who likely doesn't have twenty million dollars to bet.

The words written over two thousands years ago have proven correct.

Whats 20 millions got to do with anything besides nothing.

And the words have not been proven to be all correct, now have they?

[B. Max]

And the words have not been proven to be all correct, now have they?

Oh, is that right. Then why do feminists so torment.

[Catchme]

And the words have not been proven to be all correct, now have they?

Oh, is that right. Then why do feminists so torment.

This has go no bearing on the questions asked, nor does it make sense, please clarify?

Again what 20 million and what does money have to do with any of this?

Explain why some "Christians" hold some Bible tenets to be true and to be followed, while not others?

Feminists only torment those who do not want women to gain equality!

And that is in a passive way, because those who do not want women to be equals torment themselves with their poor self esteem.

[B. Max]

And the words have not been proven to be all correct, now have they?

Oh, is that right. Then why do feminists so torment.

This has go no bearing on the questions asked, nor does it make sense, please clarify?

What question.

Again what 20 million and what does money have to do with any of this?

Ask Drea, she is the one who wanted to bet.

Explain why some "Christians" hold some Bible tenets to be true and to be followed, while not others?

How would I know and what does it have to do with feminists.

Feminists only torment those who do not want women to gain equality!

That's not what I said. Only from a tormented mind would such nonsense as was in the original posters post come.

And that is in a passive way, because those who do not want women to be equals torment themselves with their poor self esteem.

One is either equal or they are not. Nor can they be made to be what they were not created to be. Perhaps that torments them.

[Catchme]

Explain why some "Christians" hold some Bible tenets to be true and to be followed, while not others?

How would I know and what does it have to do with feminists.

Feminists only torment those who do not want women to gain equality!

That's not what I said. Only from a tormented mind would such nonsense as was in the original posters post come.

And that is in a passive way, because those who do not want women to be equals torment themselves with their poor self esteem.

One is either equal or they are not. Nor can they be made to be what they were not created to be. Perhaps that torments them.

It has everything to do with feminists according to your commentary, as provided by a Biblical quote.

No I think perhaps only a tormented mind would think that some are more equal than others.

Saying that another human being was not created to be equal to all others or they would be, is quite the position. Many a "priviledged person" has stood there and said, "if they were equal they would be" all the while impossing tyranical states upon those others they deemed less equal than themselves. It was not correct when that phraseology was used for slavery, it was not correct with women being chattals of their husbands or fathers or legal guardians, it was not correct when women were deprived the vote, or when blacks and indians were deprived the right to vote and it is not correct now with a woman' right to self-determine.

[jefferiah]

B. Max aside....since I dont agree with what he is saying either, does this make these quotes by prominent feminists right. Do these quotes sound as if they are coming from people who only want equality? If I can say I am a fundamentalist Christian but that I don't agree with B. Max or Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson, can you concede that not all feminists are to be glorified or that they set a good standard and a good example.

[B. Max]

Saying that another human being was not created to be equal to all others or they would be, is quite the position.

The feminists driven by their own torment do not mean equal, they confuse equal with different which leads to more equal.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear jefferiah,

can you concede that not all feminists are to be glorified or that they set a good standard and a good example.

Finally, you have made a debatable point. As kimmy pointed out, without this, inflammatory quotes are merely 'flamebait'.

Some of the quotes you provided are indeed, as you named some names above, the extreme edge of the tattered fringe of reason. While it is true women have been historically treated (in some places, to this day) as inferior, the nonsense spouted by Marilyn French (and others) in your quotes does absolutely nothing positive to address the issue.

I recall a woman by the name of Judy Rebick, who was formerly the head of 'NAC', or "The National Action Commitee on the Status of Women" (succeded by Sunera Thobani, I believe) whose militancy and abrasiveness probably drove away more women from the issues than it attracted. Thobani was much more level-headed and reasonable when she presented issues, though I haven't followed anything from the group for quite some time.

[jefferiah]

Basically if society takes measures to keep men in check or other groups in check because of the possibility that they are totally unfair in the way they do business. But why do we assume that feminists cannot also be unfair or cannot be prone to bad logic, that they do not need to be kept in check. Do you believe that only men can be unfair? Is it not possible that in some cases the word "equality" can be abused by those who purport to seek it, or that even if not abusing it that they can be wrong in some cases? Is it bigotted to think a feminist can be wrong?

[jefferiah]

Dear jefferiah,

can you concede that not all feminists are to be glorified or that they set a good standard and a good example.

Finally, you have made a debatable point. As kimmy pointed out, without this, inflammatory quotes are merely 'flamebait'.

Some of the quotes you provided are indeed, as you named some names above, the extreme edge of the tattered fringe of reason. While it is true women have been historically treated (in some places, to this day) as inferior, the nonsense spouted by Marilyn French (and others) in your quotes does absolutely nothing positive to address the issue.

I recall a woman by the name of Judy Rebick, who was formerly the head of 'NAC', or "The National Action Commitee on the Status of Women" (succeded by Sunera Thobani, I believe) whose militancy and abrasiveness probably drove away more women from the issues than it attracted. Thobani was much more level-headed and reasonable when she presented issues, though I haven't followed anything from the group for quite some time.

I dont think its flaimbate at all. Nobody called Jesus Camp or posts on Christian groups flaimbate. For the record I would never send my kids there (if I had kids that is). But that's just it. I think the quotes were pretty self-explanatory. Feminism is not all roses. The quotes are simply awareness. Maybe they will change the way people view a person who says he/she would never support these movements. Even the great Gloria Steinem, she had some pretty whack things to say about how destroying the institution of marriage was a necessary step in liberation (and capitalism as well).

[Catchme]

Basically if society takes measures to keep men in check or other groups in check because of the possibility that they are totally unfair in the way they do business. But why do we assume that feminists cannot also be unfair or cannot be prone to bad logic, that they do not need to be kept in check. Do you believe that only men can be unfair? Is it not possible that in some cases the word "equality" can be abused by those who purport to seek it, or that even if not abusing it that they can be wrong in some cases? Is it bigotted to think a feminist can be wrong?

Look this is NOT about men, and yes if it is a man thinking a feminist is wrong, then it is misogyny, as then the male has set himslf up to know more than the female, even though as male is quitye obviously not female, and thus could never know.

And that is not saying some females can not be wrong, please keep in mind not all females are feminists, just as not all males are misogynists. In fact there are a good number of feminist males. For example Plato is considered on of the earliest.

Feminisn, has progressed, or shall we say changed, over the years and centuries, fundamentals have remianed, such as no debate on the rights of self determination.

wiki though not the best does address a broad range of info for those who seriously want to discuss feminism outside of the right to self determine should read.

Many feminists today argue that feminism is a grass-roots movement that seeks to cross boundaries based on social class, race, culture and religion. They also argue that an effective feminist movement should be culturally specific and address issues relevant to the women of the society in question such as female genital cutting in Africa and the Middle East and the "glass ceiling" issue in developed economies. They also debate the extent to which certain societal issues such as rape, incest and mothering are universal. Themes explored in feminism include patriarchy, stereotyping, sexual objectification and oppression

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminists

[RB]

I should make my comment on this thread

It would seem that some women have indeed become bitter with the run-in with men. It is of course distressing that "men still rule the world" literally and whether women admit it to themselves or lie to themselves, the truth is men play a big part in controlling an evitable outcome in women lives.

I do however sincerely believe that men want to care and respect the female. The trouble is that men lose their control if they allow women to become "free" (used loosely).

In its simpleness I believe that if a women decides to stay at home, have kids, clean the house, manage the groceries, be ready for sex at a command etc. gratefully do the female chores, and a man can afford this will - it would is a blessed time to live in paradise and sing praises.

But, alas, women want their men to share the dish washing, change the diapers, have the men stay at home with the baby, punishable such as no sex when you get married etc. plus the women want to be the earners to have a girl's night out of their own, to cheat just as the men, and embed naughtiness in parts of their disposition such as men will always be men is replace with "a woman thing" - like none of this double standard anymore

The result, well men are turning to each other for comfort. They are also becoming openingly effeminate, gone metro sexual, as if to follow the fashion of a woman, plus it seem natural now that they also find their male counterparts sexually attractive.

I believe that there isn't much female guidance around, like public figures that other females can follow - not these loud mouth nut wit that despise men

[jefferiah]

Basically if society takes measures to keep men in check or other groups in check because of the possibility that they are totally unfair in the way they do business. But why do we assume that feminists cannot also be unfair or cannot be prone to bad logic, that they do not need to be kept in check. Do you believe that only men can be unfair? Is it not possible that in some cases the word "equality" can be abused by those who purport to seek it, or that even if not abusing it that they can be wrong in some cases? Is it bigotted to think a feminist can be wrong?

Look this is NOT about men, and yes if it is a man thinking a feminist is wrong, then it is misogyny, as then the male has set himslf up to know more than the female, even though as male is quitye obviously not female, and thus could never know.

And that is not saying some females can not be wrong, please keep in mind not all females are feminists, just as not all males are misogynists. In fact there are a good number of feminist males. For example Plato is considered on of the earliest.

Feminisn, has progressed, or shall we say changed, over the years and centuries, fundamentals have remianed, such as no debate on the rights of self determination.

wiki though not the best does address a broad range of info for those who seriously want to discuss feminism outside of the right to self determine should read.

Many feminists today argue that feminism is a grass-roots movement that seeks to cross boundaries based on social class, race, culture and religion. They also argue that an effective feminist movement should be culturally specific and address issues relevant to the women of the society in question such as female genital cutting in Africa and the Middle East and the "glass ceiling" issue in developed economies. They also debate the extent to which certain societal issues such as rape, incest and mothering are universal. Themes explored in feminism include patriarchy, stereotyping, sexual objectification and oppression

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminists

LOl Catch me. That is completely ridiculous. It is mysogyny for a man to think a feminist could be wrong. Maybe you really believe this. I dont know. If its not your intent, you should at least be aware that this accusation provides a very convenient way to disregard any dissent at all. By this logic, if a feminist wanted to crown herself world dictator it would be wrong to stop her.

[jefferiah]

Mysogyny means hatred of women. So to disagree with anything a feminist says means you hate women. So my disagreement with the sentiments of the women I quoted makes me a mysogynist apparently. Now my appeal to the other posters is this. After seeing what Catch Me has said regarding Mysogyny, can any feminists out there concede that there are feminists who are basically the female equivalents of B. Max.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear jefferiah,

The quotes are simply awareness.

Very well, my apologies. However, without context, (whether or not you agreed with them, for example) motivation or intent is open to interpretation. For example, if I were to cut & paste some racist jokes from some skinhead sites, and said it was simply FYI, I think I could reasonable expect to be reported, even if my original intent was to say, "Look at what these morons believe! Why do we allow them to reproduce?!" Without the caveat of intent, some people would get their nickers in a twist.

Feminism is not all roses

This says a ton more, and then becomes a debatable point, one that I agree with you upon. But, really, is there a difference betwwen 'feminism' and radicalism? Or is it simply the bleatings of a special interest group? Is 'equality' (of not just the sexes, but of races and abilities)greater than 'feminism', or are they 'equal but different'?

[Catchme]

I speaking in only regards to feminism, feminist thought and regarding woman's self determination, not the broader world, I had thought I was quite clear on that. And reading back I see, yes, I was.

__________________________________

Men in history used to be very effeminent as opposed to today's men, they wore: long hair, make up, wigs, heels on their pumps, plus bows ruffles and lace. Men who use women's equality rights to try a frame a discussion around the fact that is why there are effeminent men today have no basis in fact to do so.