RCMP: Break it up

[August1991]

In the wake of the Arar imbroglio, maybe the RCMP should be broken up.

In particular, I have never understood why the RCMP is involved in local policing. In Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland, general policing is done by provincial police or municipal police. Why doesn't Alberta have its own police force?

This would leave the RCMP with a smaller bureaucracy and more chance to enforce competently federal law.

[jdobbin]

In the wake of the Arar imbroglio, maybe the RCMP should be broken up.

In particular, I have never understood why the RCMP is involved in local policing. In Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland, general policing is done by provincial police or municipal police. Why doesn't Alberta have its own police force?

This would leave the RCMP with a smaller bureaucracy and more chance to enforce competently federal law.

The Conservatives won't break up the RCMP because they owe them for the federal election.

Perhaps when the Liberals get back in, they might consider it.

[Figleaf]

>

Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf

[Wilber]

In the wake of the Arar imbroglio, maybe the RCMP should be broken up.

In particular, I have never understood why the RCMP is involved in local policing. In Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland, general policing is done by provincial police or municipal police. Why doesn't Alberta have its own police force?

This would leave the RCMP with a smaller bureaucracy and more chance to enforce competently federal law.

They are involved in local policing because some municipalities think it is easier to rent police than have departments of their own. BC had a provincial police many years ago and there are rumours that they may go that way again. There is far more integration between municipal departments than there used to be and if there are any roadblocks to co-operation, they usually come from RCMP brass, not the rank and file. Hence the talk of returning to a provincial force.

[sharkman]

Isn't this a bit of a knee jerk reaction? Every single immigrant who is sent packing plays the fear of persecution card. If one out of thousands actually gets tortured do we really have to revamp OUR policing? No we do not. I don't know why they decided this guy should be deported, but if he doesn't abide by our super relaxed laws and regulations(when compared with his own country) then should us tax payers put up every single immigrant who plays the 'persecution' card? \

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf

[Remiel]

Oh? And what law did he break, sharpman?

[watching&waiting]

The question is not knee jerk or anything even close. It has shown the RCMP were never trained for national security work and they failed in that so completely, that they were just doing as they were told by the USA. That is not what we wwant in our country. CSIS should be the one for this type of work and yes it may have to expand, but at least it will have trained the people to do the job.

The RCMP were never meant to be doing spy work and International co-operation type agendas. It was dumped on them in the after math of 9/11 and they dropped the ball badly. Now is the time to see that and rectify it before it happens again.

[sharkman]

Isn't this a bit of a knee jerk reaction? Every single immigrant who is sent packing plays the fear of persecution card. If one out of thousands actually gets tortured do we really have to revamp OUR policing?

Yes.

The cause of the torture was faulty conduct. Irrespective of your inhuman insensitivity to the torment of your fellow man, you must understand that the incompetence demonstrated by the RCMP is cause for profound concern if you want a useful and effective police force.

Well, I disagree with you assessment. The one screw up out of several thousand may be bad, but it does not warrant breaking up the RCMP. If CSIS should have been calling the shots on this, fine. Have them in charge in future cases like these. Should the RCMP be embarrassed? Yes. Should they be broken up? Knee jerk. Again, when faced with deportation, most immigrants claim fear of persecution, fear of death, fear of torture, anything to get the judge to reverse the decision. Should we then keep every single immigrant who claims this ?

[jdobbin]

Well, I disagree with you assessment. The one screw up out of several thousand may be bad, but it does not warrant breaking up the RCMP. If CSIS should have been calling the shots on this, fine. Have them in charge in future cases like these. Should the RCMP be embarrassed? Yes. Should they be broken up? Knee jerk. Again, when faced with deportation, most immigrants claim fear of persecution, fear of death, fear of torture, anything to get the judge to reverse the decision. Should we then keep every single immigrant who claims this ?

Is the present Commissioner the right man to do the job give this and other problems over the last few years? If so, why?

[Leafless]

Oh? And what law did he break, sharpman?

Please understand this.

The man was travelling to the U.S. during a time of high terrorist alert. He must bear some responsibility for this since if he was ONLY a Canadian citizen he would have been deported back to Canada ...no other country.

The man was also a citizen of Syria.

The RCMP had a file on Arar as a possible terrorist suspect.

No one knows how Mr.Arar responded to U.S. authorities when detained by U.S. authorities which could have contributed to his deportation to Syria if he was indeed arrogant or behaved with an indignant attitude or manner with U.S. officials.

BTW- I think it was extremely foolish of the RCMP to admit to being incompetent in this matter as there is a fine line that must be drawn (instantly)in a case like this with the suspect being actually involved with wrong doing or was completely innocent which was impossible to determine at the time. I suspect the RCMP was used as a scapegoat in all of this.

But I really get a chuckle out of the 22 recommendations that the RCMP so readily accepted (almost a charter in itself) that will more than likely add even more confusion in the future and probably end up as a disservice to Canadians in the way of protecting the Canadian public.

IMO Mr. Arar should be should be not given a federal apology nor should he be given a single penny in the way of possible compensation. Mr. Arar acted in an irresponsible manner with his choices of acquaintances and now is blaming Canadians for his problem including poor judgement concerning travelling at a time of high terrorist alert as also a citizen of Syria.

[Argus]

Isn't this a bit of a knee jerk reaction? Every single immigrant who is sent packing plays the fear of persecution card. If one out of thousands actually gets tortured do we really have to revamp OUR policing?

Yes.

The cause of the torture was faulty conduct. Irrespective of your inhuman insensitivity to the torment of your fellow man, you must understand that the incompetence demonstrated by the RCMP is cause for profound concern if you want a useful and effective police force.

Nonsense. The problem with the RCMP is the same as the any other large organization - leadership. And the leadership problems of the RCMP are all political, due to the tinkering and interference by their political masters. The RCMP commisioner has been little more than a toady to the PMO since Multoney's time. The current commisioner has allowed the RCMP to be used for political reasons, even in violation of the law, and to harrass Chretien's political oppents. He should be fired, and the relationship between the RCMP and the federal government should be adjusted to minimize political interference.

[Argus]

In the wake of the Arar imbroglio, maybe the RCMP should be broken up.

In particular, I have never understood why the RCMP is involved in local policing. In Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland, general policing is done by provincial police or municipal police. Why doesn't Alberta have its own police force?

This would leave the RCMP with a smaller bureaucracy and more chance to enforce competently federal law.

What has the RCMP's street policing got to do with its national security work? And why on earth would you think an organization which only looked after federal laws wouldn't have a problem with bureacracy? Ever seen such organizations in other countries?

Strong leadership is what is needed at the RCMP, and they haven't been getting it due to political interference.

[watching&waiting]

Lets just correct something here before they go by un-noticed. Ara was not flying to the USA, but rthare was flying home to Canada. There was a flight transfer in the USA. As the habit now of the USA they check all people that feel interested in, regardless of the fact that they do not intend to left the secure area of the airport and leave on a connecting flight. It was the USA that kept him from contining, and the USA also knew Arar was Canadian. All they had to do is put him on the connecting flight and he would have been gone and all would have been well.

Arar did nothing to bring this on himself other then be of mideastern descent. The USA broke International laws by sending him to Syria, and the courts will soon rule if they broke their own countries laws as well. It was the RCMP that let Arar down and gave information that was faulty. Arar is going to get a large amount of money from Canada for our part in this, but he will as well go after the rest. I believe Canada should make Syria pay for this, as they are the ones who held and captured Arar. As far as the ammounts go, I will assume that lawyers will take the largest portion, So Arar will get what to many is a lot of money, I do not how many of you would be willing to go thru the same for the same amount of money.

[Leafless]

I do not how many of you would be willing to go thru the same for the same amount of money.

Where is the proof what Mr. Arar went through and what was the alleged torture? How do you know Mr. Arar has not worked out some kind of deal with his alleged torturers? How do you know if Mr. Arar's whole issue is not some sort of conspiracy or just a plain lie?

As far as I know the man could at the time he returned to Canada, could talk, walk, see, understand and looked perfectly healthy.

What amount of money are you referring to? Your staement is unlogical asking: "I do not how many of you would be willing to go thru the same for the same amount of money.'' You probably know the answer to that just as well as I do and I would estimate thousands of Canadians would be willing to go through what Mr. Arar went through as it seems it did not affect him physically or psychologically and appears to be fully coherent.

There are many unemployed Canadians like Mr.Arar who have also suffered greatly from failed government policy, but get nothing.

Mr. Arar should be thankful he has a safe, free country to live in rather than to try to milk the Canadian government and the Canadian people to what could be equivalent to the life style of a very well off affluent Canadian.

[August1991]

What has the RCMP's street policing got to do with its national security work?

That's kind of my point, Argus.

It seems to me that if the RCMP in Ottawa concentrated on enforcing federal law, it might have a chance of being more competent. It's not as if this would be a radical change. Three provinces already do this themselves. And on this forum, there are several who argue that Alberta should be more autonomous. Why doesn't Alberta have its own police force?

At present, the RCMP tries to do too many things and is too sprawling a bureaucracy. Maybe that explains the poor leadership.

[Argus]

What has the RCMP's street policing got to do with its national security work?

That's kind of my point, Argus.

It seems to me that if the RCMP in Ottawa concentrated on enforcing federal law, it might have a chance of being more competent. It's not as if this would be a radical change. Three provinces already do this themselves. And on this forum, there are several who argue that Alberta should be more autonomous. Why doesn't Alberta have its own police force?

At present, the RCMP tries to do too many things and is too sprawling a bureaucracy. Maybe that explains the poor leadership.

You make no sense. I see no reason why curtailing the size of the force is going to lead to better leadership. If Alberta likes to have the RCMP police its highways, that's up to them. Maybe they like the tradition of it.

Explain how cutting the size of the force leads to better leadership - as opposed to giving the force more automony so it isn't directly answerable to its political masters.

Leadership comes from the top, and the recent commisioners have been chosen solely for their pliable spines and political reliability - not for intelligence or leadership skills. Perhaps that ought to change.

[August1991]

I see no reason why curtailing the size of the force is going to lead to better leadership. If Alberta likes to have the RCMP police its highways, that's up to them. Maybe they like the tradition of it.

Explain how cutting the size of the force leads to better leadership - as opposed to giving the force more automony so it isn't directly answerable to its political masters.

If the Commissioner is busy taking decisions about police staffing problems in Wing Ding, Saskatchewan, then she or he has less time to worry about enforcing federal law. Moreover, the distinct feature of any military or police force is the ferocious sense of loyalty. In such a widespread force as the modern RCMP, it is hard to achieve that. One of the problems now is that Zaccardelli can't admit error because is would undermine the authority of a cop on the beat in Wing Ding.

Argus, are you serious that you want to give more autonomy to the RCMP?

I agree with you that the RCMP plays a game with politicians on certain sensitive issues but on other issues, the RCMP can clam up tighter than a bank vault. I'm not certain how to deal with this except the US route of parliamentary committee oversight.

I still think that one start would be devolving policing functions to provincial police forces. The idea of a tradition is interesting. If Albertans don't want to have police in turbans, then maybe a provincial force could avoid the problem. I have never seen an SQ officer in a turban.

[Argus]

I see no reason why curtailing the size of the force is going to lead to better leadership. If Alberta likes to have the RCMP police its highways, that's up to them. Maybe they like the tradition of it.

Explain how cutting the size of the force leads to better leadership - as opposed to giving the force more automony so it isn't directly answerable to its political masters.

If the Commissioner is busy taking decisions about police staffing problems in Wing Ding, Saskatchewan, then she or he has less time to worry about enforcing federal law.

Except it's not his job to worry about staffing in wing-ding Saskatchewan. The RCMP is internally segregated as to functions, like every other large orgagnization.

Moreover, the distinct feature of any military or police force is the ferocious sense of loyalty. In such a widespread force as the modern RCMP, it is hard to achieve that.

The FBI also has a ferocious sense of loyalty, as does the US Marine corps. Size is not of particular importance in such matters.

One of the problems now is that Zaccardelli can't admit error because is would undermine the authority of a cop on the beat in Wing Ding.

I think the folks in Wing Ding know the RCMP is imperfect.

Argus, are you serious that you want to give more autonomy to the RCMP?

More autonomy from the government anyway. I don't mind a parliamentary oversight committee. But I feel very uncomfortable when the RCMP is allowing itself to be used to harrass the political enemies of the party in power.

I still think that one start would be devolving policing functions to provincial police forces. The idea of a tradition is interesting. If Albertans don't want to have police in turbans, then maybe a provincial force could avoid the problem. I have never seen an SQ officer in a turban.

It's an English Canada tradition, August, so clearly not very important. And perhaps you don't see SQ officers in turban because of Quebec's notorious hostility towards immigrants.

[Charles Anthony]

This would leave the RCMP with a smaller bureaucracy and more chance to enforce competently federal law.

Reflexively, I will agree that the RCMP should be broken up and stripped of trivial local law enforcement.

If we need a police force to enforce federal law, the RCMP could be assigned to do that exclusively.

If smaller jurisdictions want to hire the RCMP as law enforcement / security guards, forget it.

If we think the RCMP can do ALL jurisdictional levels of law enforcement, why not hire them to rescue my cat from the tree or help me cross the street or direct traffic in Wing Ding, Sasketchewan or mow the lawn at City Hall if they have the free time. Inefficient.

The one screw up out of several thousand may be bad, but it does not warrant breaking up the RCMP.

One screw up?? They raided a journalist's home too!

The Shawinigate investigation.

Raiding former Business Development Bank of Canada president François Beaudoin's home.

The Air India crock.

BTW- I think it was extremely foolish of the RCMP to admit to being incompetent in this matter as there is a fine line that must be drawn (instantly)in a case like this with the suspect being actually involved with wrong doing or was completely innocent which was impossible to determine at the time. I suspect the RCMP was used as a scapegoat in all of this.

That is a realistic possibility. I believe restricting the mandate of the RCMP will help in the future.

Ever work at a job where your job description was vague or all-encompassing? You are expected to do everything and you get blamed for everything.

Where is the proof what Mr. Arar went through and what was the alleged torture? How do you know Mr. Arar has not worked out some kind of deal with his alleged torturers? How do you know if Mr. Arar's whole issue is not some sort of conspiracy or just a plain lie?

As morbid as it might sound, it is certainly possible. Now there is a conspiracy theory that I like!

Nevertheless, it would also be a justification for breaking up the RCMP's duties.

It's an English Canada tradition, August, so clearly not very important. And perhaps you don't see SQ officers in turban because of Quebec's notorious hostility towards immigrants.

Yes...... and the rest-of-Canadians are so welcoming to immigrants!

Where did this turban-RCMP issue arise anyway?

Except it's not his job to worry about staffing in wing-ding Saskatchewan. The RCMP is internally segregated as to functions, like every other large orgagnization.

If tthere is a staffing issue (or any other local triviality) in Wing Ding, the Commissioner must ultimately be answerable. Simultaneously, it can be used as an excuse by the Commissioner or somebody else.

In my opinion, what Aug91 is pointing out in this thread is important. This is a no-brainer and part of the "big government is bad and small government is better" deal. The smaller administration is closer to its constituents and more accountable. Period.

Furthermore, it is part of the jack-of-all-trades problem: if you expect somebody to be able to do everything, certain things (if not everything) will be either be done:

1) poorly, or

2) more costly

compared to a scenario whereby their tasks are specialized. Point-final.

[Argus]

This would leave the RCMP with a smaller bureaucracy and more chance to enforce competently federal law.

Reflexively, I will agree that the RCMP should be broken up and stripped of trivial local law enforcement.

This "trivial" law enforcement you speak of is the reson d'etre of the RCMP. It is what the force was created for, what it does quite well, and has been doing for over a century. You want to remove it from their responsibilty - for what reason? So they can concentrate on what? You and August seem to be somewhat at a loss as to the difference between Canada and the US. You want the RCMP to concentrate on enforcing "federal law"? Uhm, in Canada, crime is generally the violation of federal laws, as the federal government writes the criminal laws.

In my opinion, what Aug91 is pointing out in this thread is important. This is a no-brainer and part of the "big government is bad and small government is better" deal. The smaller administration is closer to its constituents and more accountable. Period.

I don't see the Toronto or Ottawa police as being the slightest bit closer to their constituents than the RCMP is in other jurisdictions. And Canada's population is spread out too far to have individual law enforcement agencies in every burg and hamlet. It'd be too ineffecient and ineffective.

Besides, people have a connection with the history and tradition of the RCMP. You guys want to turn them into what? A Canadian FBI? A bunch of people wearing suits and driving unmarked cars? All that does is seperate them from street cops, which is where they get so much of their information. That seperation in the US is the source of much rivalry, distrust, and lack of communications between federal, state, and municipal law enforcement agencies. And despite that seperation, the FBI, DEA, and local police authorities have lots of examples of major screw-ups under their belts.

[uOttawaMan]

Oh please..

and creating a provincial police force for every province would make policing this vast country easier how?

All that creates is even more red tape, with inter-provincial regulations and jurisdictions coming into play, not to mention the initial start up costs and dis-organisation would cause a drop in service and would further fragment this country's already severly cracked national security psyche.

[jdobbin]

I would settle for more oversight of the RCMP.

I have never lived in Quebec or Ontario so I don't know what their local provincial forces are like. I don't know that some of the smaller provinces could establish their own forces. Perhaps they could and it might be cheaper and more responsive.

I do know the force has a proud history but police work is changing and the need for better policing on commerical crimes, international terrorism, protective details is needed.

[Wilber]

One thing about using the RCMP as a municipal force is that you don't get people with local knowledge in your police force until they have been there for some time and there is no guarantee that they will be there for a long time. This isn't a knock on the officers, it's just the way it is.

Around 15 years ago the municipalities of Matsqui and Abbotsford amalgamated. Even though Matsqui was quite a bit larger and had its own police force, the new city was named Abbotsford. Abbotsford used the RCMP but the decision was made to keep an independent force called the Abbotsford Police. Quite a few of the old Abbotsford RCMP detachment who were eligible for retirement took it and joined the Abbotsford Force.

[watching&waiting]

The RCMP are a federal police force and they are first and foremost supposed to enforce federal laws. They have rarely been doing that lately, and even when they do it has many screw ups because they are not used to doing all the jobs asked of them. I do not think that they should be involved in traffic duties at all and that would be better done by the provinces themselves. In the artic or remote territoies I think they can still be used, but even there, it would depend on the logistics of it being a viable challenge.

The RCMP should not have any duties to do with National security as we have CSIS who should be taking care of that, and it needs to be doing that job outside of a public force anyways.

All Police forces should never be investigated by their own forces or that of other police, but rather a civillian committee of outsiders, who would then look into any wrong doing. The public should be able to view all evidence in these investigations, without internal editing.

If this was done the RCMP could do the job they were meant to do and still have it within their present budget.