The great debate "debate".

[Army Guy]

Written thurs sept 7

Thought i give you a soldiers opinion on this topic of Debating Canada's mission in Afgan. one that is shared by the majority of soldiers here.

I've spent days reading the same news news from home, and from across the country, I've manged to put my laptop computer into my rucksack, not an easy feat considering it's wieght already. Anyways the news only gets updated every couple of days when someone brings it back to the main camp to get updated.

And the news is always of great debate here, amoungst our section.

My first reaction when i heard that there is now a new movement to debate our mission here, was to scream WTF are Canadians thinking. Debate what, what is it about this mission that has not been explained over and over. but after a couple of days of thinking, interupted by a few long conversations with the Taliban (over tea and biscuts, sorry our NDP friends did not show up.) Anyways i've come to these conclusions that

Some Canadians just don't get it, or refuse to get it.

This is confusing for me , because everyone got it when you sent us over here the first time "remember that" excuses that the mission has changed, are BS remember the PPCLI in the mountains,they wer'nt handing out teddy bears. Yes we have moved down south and yes there is more Taliban here, and yes "we" are at more risk. But then again soldiers are'nt complaining in fact most have already served 2 or more tours here "we all volunteered" what does that tell you. It tells me that this mission is of great importance and thru the efforts of our soldiers we will make a postive difference here in rebuilding this nation brick by brick.

It's not about drug lords, corupt goverment officals(Canada did'nt have any of those) or for that matter the taliban. It's all about establishing a secure enviroment so some form of government can take root and the people of Afgan can start to rebuild thier lives after decades of war. where children go to school, people work, women have rights.

We are doing our part by driving the Taliban out, Canadians need to "as my old Sgt Major would say" Grab your balls and squezze, that pain your feeling is proof you have them, now use them. Canadians sent us over here if "we" can uphold our end , then Canadians should be presuring our government to do what ever it can to bring peace to this region so we can come home. Afgan is going to take more than just the military to bring peace, it's going to take lots of money and other depts to bring this change a reality.

The longer you dither and debate we the soldiers pay. get off your asses.

[M.Dancer]

My first reaction when i heard that there is now a new movement to debate our mission here, was to scream WTF are Canadians thinking. Debate what.......

I've said it before I'll say it again. We need to debate.....We need to discuss things like.......

Do we need 1 or 2 more battalions to do the job

What about Air Support? SHould we send one or two Squadrons?

What about target practice...are you running out of NDPers?

We should be debating the best way to win the war.

[jdobbin]

It's not about drug lords, corupt goverment officals(Canada did'nt have any of those) or for that matter the taliban. It's all about establishing a secure enviroment so some form of government can take root and the people of Afgan can start to rebuild thier lives after decades of war. where children go to school, people work, women have rights.

That Afghan government is showing signs of being a verision of Taliban light and the very thing you are fighting for could be the things they oppose. If the justification for continuing to fight is security, how will the country be more secure when thenew government will be as nearly extremist as the Taliban you are fighting?

[M.Dancer]

That Afghan government is showing signs of being a verision of Taliban light and the very thing you are fighting for could be the things they oppose. If the justification for continuing to fight is security, how will the country be more secure when thenew government will be as nearly extremist as the Taliban you are fighting?

When they abolish elections and rule like an arbitrary allah....you'll have a point. When they start conducting operations against Shi'ites....you'll have a point.....

No one I know expects the Afghan gov't to win a Nobel prize.....but if the violence can be checked.....even a gov't which in flavour is as Islamic as Kuwait...or Saudi Arabia....will be a incredible step forwards....like time warping for the 16th to 19th century as it were.

[jdobbin]

When they abolish elections and rule like an arbitrary allah....you'll have a point. When they start conducting operations against Shi'ites....you'll have a point.....

No one I know expects the Afghan gov't to win a Nobel prize.....but if the violence can be checked.....even a gov't which in flavour is as Islamic as Kuwait...or Saudi Arabia....will be a incredible step forwards....like time warping for the 16th to 19th century as it were.

Actually, there are quite a few that believe that the new government won't resemble the Saudis or Kuwaits at all. They are more like the Taliban than you'd think.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...MNGBGKLP871.DTL

[M.Dancer]

Actually, there are quite a few that believe that the new government won't resemble the Saudis or Kuwaits at all. They are more like the Taliban than you'd think.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...MNGBGKLP871.DTL

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm

The Sauds have very very strict religious police. The difference beteen the Sauds though and Afghanistan.......

The government is Afghanistan is there by the popular suffrage of the people. If they choose to live with an extreme representation of the law.....it's there choice.

Now whether they will give safe haven to Osama....or those who desire our deaths?

[jdobbin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm

The Sauds have very very strict religious police. The difference beteen the Sauds though and Afghanistan.......

The government is Afghanistan is there by the popular suffrage of the people. If they choose to live with an extreme representation of the law.....it's there choice.

Now whether they will give safe haven to Osama....or those who desire our deaths?

It is going to be hard to justify the continued war if a crack down on women and education starts to take shape. Even the American government is very wary of how things might be going. Certainly, we aren't going to be very happy, it they start executing converts to other religions like they intend to do.

[M.Dancer]

It is going to be hard to justify the continued war if a crack down on women and education starts to take shape. Even the American government is very wary of how things might be going. Certainly, we aren't going to be very happy, it they start executing converts to other religions like they intend to do.

Because it will be hard to justify to the public, canadian or american....doesn't mean that the justifcation isn't valid.

The first thing that has to be spelled out, the Taliban wasn't removed because they weren't a western style liberal democracy, but because they gave safe haven to terrorists who were attacking us. The same reason applies to why the Taliban can not be allowed to regain power.(For that matter, why we must keep our eyes on other failed nations like Somalia.)

If because of our involvement, the long term effect of security is peace and prosperity for the Afghan people, so much the better. But if they decide to live in the dark ages...who are we to forbid it?

[daddyhominum]

Written thurs sept 7

It's not about drug lords, corupt goverment officals(Canada did'nt have any of those) or for that matter the taliban. It's all about establishing a secure enviroment so some form of government can take root and the people of Afgan can start to rebuild thier lives after decades of war. where children go to school, people work, women have rights.

We are doing our part by driving the Taliban out, Canadians need to "as my old Sgt Major would say" Grab your balls and squezze, that pain your feeling is proof you have them, now use them. Canadians sent us over here if "we" can uphold our end , then Canadians should be presuring our government to do what ever it can to bring peace to this region so we can come home. Afgan is going to take more than just the military to bring peace, it's going to take lots of money and other depts to bring this change a reality.

The longer you dither and debate we the soldiers pay. get off your asses.

Thank you for expressing yourself here and thank you for your work.

It is well to realize that the growing distaste for the Afghan misiion is directly related to the casualties being suffered by you guys. We just don't like to see our children wounded and killed far from home for an outcome still unpredictable.

That said, I am a strong supporter of the mission in Afghanistan because it is a battle to allow for human rights to improve for Afghanis. But the character of this war remiinds one of the IRA campaign against Britain more then of the set battles of Allies against Axis in WW2

So, given the situation, what would it take to bring peace to this region, in your opinion?

More military resources? More educators? More economic aid?

[MSH]

My first reaction when i heard that there is now a new movement to debate our mission here, was to scream WTF are Canadians thinking. Debate what, what is it about this mission that has not been explained over and over. but after a couple of days of thinking, interupted by a few long conversations with the Taliban (over tea and biscuts, sorry our NDP friends did not show up.) Anyways i've come to these conclusions that

Some Canadians just don't get it, or refuse to get it.

I totally relate to your feelings. Furthermore, it is wonderful to get the viewpoint of one of our troops and comforting to know that there is solid support for this mission.

I for one DO "get it". What I DON'T get is what has happened to the conviction and resolve Canadians have historically had in defending their values and interests on the international stage? To this day Canadians are honoured across the globe for their commitments and sacrifices during both world wars. Even before that brave Canadians fought overseas to defend the interests of the British Empire (I am a direct descendent of a veteran of the second Boer War). Making such a dedicated commitment to the liberation of Afghanistan from the grips of Taliban terrorists is NOT uncharacteristic of Canadian's role in foreign affairs. Indeed, it is exactly in line with our historical involvement in global affairs, from the wold wars, to being an important founder nation of the UN, to out participation in the Korean War.

I think Canadians have tragically lost their knowledge of both history and global affairs, and that we are sadly in danger of becoming an ignorant and selfish nation without global significance of any kind. Critics almost seem to revel in lamenting that Harper and the Conservatives are remaking the nation into a "Canada they do not recognise" or that "Harper's Canada is not my Canada" or some such tripe. Well, although I am not entirely happy with how Harper runs the government I am very grateful to his government for doing its best to return Canada to its formal place of respect on the international stage and making meaningful commitments to protecting and advancing our values.

It is the series of most recent Liberal governments (Trudeau, Cretien and Martin) that have made Canada unrecognisable, and in particualr the latter two. The last election was all about desperately-needed change on many fronts, and at that point I was actually ashamed of what Canada had become: domestically we were coasting along on auto-pilot and what little actual work the government did was done on an ad-hoc basis, blatantly and cynically for political expediency. Internationally we were being forgotten about at best and mocked at worst. This was mostly because of the poor leadership of Cretien and Martin--as much as I detested how Trudeau nearly ruined our economy permanently and treated the nation as his little social experiment at least he had resolve and the respect of most of the international community (hey, Nixon hated his guts but even he had respect for Trudeau). Pearson was the last respectable Liberal leader.

As for casualties we have suffered--why can't the media, and indeed much of Canada, manage to put things in perspective? All these critics are painting such a gloomy picture and saying we face an uphill battle. HELLO PEOPLE, we are wiping the floor with the Taliban in this latest operation! We've suffered just 16 casulties in this operation vs. hundreds of Taliban, and altogether just over 30 since we arrived there four years ago. MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS IN FIVE DAYS on Canadian highways than how many soldiers have died in four years in Afghanistan. Where are the calls for emergency debates on traffic safety and pulling out of all road construction projects in favour of rail and other public transportation?

I'm really curious to hear from those who advocate an immediate exit from Afghanistan and/or trying to negotiate a ceasefire with the Taliban how they can advocate their position in the context of Canada's long-term history. How do you negotiate with leaders of an insane islamic cult? It would be like trying to come to a reasonable agreement with David Koresh or Jim Jones! How do you establish and protect a free society, where young boys aren't psychologically abused to the point they become willing suicide bombers and women aren't treated as property and given less respect than cattle? I don't know how you can morally justify leaving the total perversion of the Islamic faith that is the Taliban to their own devices.

To me, pulling out troops and sitting down with Osama's henchmen would be like just sitting and watching a mugger rob a lady of her purse, then chasing the mugger down not to apprehend him, but to say "this wallet fell out of the purse you just stole--I'll give it to you but just promise me you won't mug old ladies again, m'kay?".

That's where I'm coming from anyways. I am saddend to see our soldiers suffer such losses, however they are our heroes for making the ultimate sacrifice trying to make the world a better place.

[Black Dog]

I for one would like to hear what the measureable outcomes are for success of the mission. For example: if the mission is to defeat the Taliban, how will that be measured? I think people are tired of the empty sloganeering that passes for information on this matter.

[uOttawaMan]

My first reaction when i heard that there is now a new movement to debate our mission here, was to scream WTF are Canadians thinking. Debate what, what is it about this mission that has not been explained over and over. but after a couple of days of thinking, interupted by a few long conversations with the Taliban (over tea and biscuts, sorry our NDP friends did not show up.) Anyways i've come to these conclusions that

Some Canadians just don't get it, or refuse to get it.

I totally relate to your feelings. Furthermore, it is wonderful to get the viewpoint of one of our troops and comforting to know that there is solid support for this mission.

I for one DO "get it". What I DON'T get is what has happened to the conviction and resolve Canadians have historically had in defending their values and interests on the international stage? To this day Canadians are honoured across the globe for their commitments and sacrifices during both world wars. Even before that brave Canadians fought overseas to defend the interests of the British Empire (I am a direct descendent of a veteran of the second Boer War). Making such a dedicated commitment to the liberation of Afghanistan from the grips of Taliban terrorists is NOT uncharacteristic of Canadian's role in foreign affairs. Indeed, it is exactly in line with our historical involvement in global affairs, from the wold wars, to being an important founder nation of the UN, to out participation in the Korean War.

I think Canadians have tragically lost their knowledge of both history and global affairs, and that we are sadly in danger of becoming an ignorant and selfish nation without global significance of any kind. Critics almost seem to revel in lamenting that Harper and the Conservatives are remaking the nation into a "Canada they do not recognise" or that "Harper's Canada is not my Canada" or some such tripe. Well, although I am not entirely happy with how Harper runs the government I am very grateful to his government for doing its best to return Canada to its formal place of respect on the international stage and making meaningful commitments to protecting and advancing our values.

It is the series of most recent Liberal governments (Trudeau, Cretien and Martin) that have made Canada unrecognisable, and in particualr the latter two. The last election was all about desperately-needed change on many fronts, and at that point I was actually ashamed of what Canada had become: domestically we were coasting along on auto-pilot and what little actual work the government did was done on an ad-hoc basis, blatantly and cynically for political expediency. Internationally we were being forgotten about at best and mocked at worst. This was mostly because of the poor leadership of Cretien and Martin--as much as I detested how Trudeau nearly ruined our economy permanently and treated the nation as his little social experiment at least he had resolve and the respect of most of the international community (hey, Nixon hated his guts but even he had respect for Trudeau). Pearson was the last respectable Liberal leader.

As for casualties we have suffered--why can't the media, and indeed much of Canada, manage to put things in perspective? All these critics are painting such a gloomy picture and saying we face an uphill battle. HELLO PEOPLE, we are wiping the floor with the Taliban in this latest operation! We've suffered just 16 casulties in this operation vs. hundreds of Taliban, and altogether just over 30 since we arrived there four years ago. MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS IN FIVE DAYS on Canadian highways than how many soldiers have died in four years in Afghanistan. Where are the calls for emergency debates on traffic safety and pulling out of all road construction projects in favour of rail and other public transportation?

I'm really curious to hear from those who advocate an immediate exit from Afghanistan and/or trying to negotiate a ceasefire with the Taliban how they can advocate their position in the context of Canada's long-term history. How do you negotiate with leaders of an insane islamic cult? It would be like trying to come to a reasonable agreement with David Koresh or Jim Jones! How do you establish and protect a free society, where young boys aren't psychologically abused to the point they become willing suicide bombers and women aren't treated as property and given less respect than cattle? I don't know how you can morally justify leaving the total perversion of the Islamic faith that is the Taliban to their own devices.

To me, pulling out troops and sitting down with Osama's henchmen would be like just sitting and watching a mugger rob a lady of her purse, then chasing the mugger down not to apprehend him, but to say "this wallet fell out of the purse you just stole--I'll give it to you but just promise me you won't mug old ladies again, m'kay?".

That's where I'm coming from anyways. I am saddend to see our soldiers suffer such losses, however they are our heroes for making the ultimate sacrifice trying to make the world a better place.

Winner?

[M.Dancer]

MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS IN FIVE DAYS on Canadian highways than how many soldiers have died in four years in Afghanistan

While I for one would love to see a debate on traffic safety....considering there are perhaps 100,000 times more cars on the road in the last 5 days than CNDs in afghanistan....perhaps we should limit the numbers of cars on the road for the next 5 days to 2,500 for better accuracy in analogies...or boosting our troops to 2,200,000 for a week....either or, I'm flexible.

[uOttawaMan]

MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS IN FIVE DAYS on Canadian highways than how many soldiers have died in four years in Afghanistan

While I for one would love to see a debate on traffic safety....considering there are perhaps 100,000 times more cars on the road in the last 5 days than CNDs in afghanistan....perhaps we should limit the numbers of cars on the road for the next 5 days to 2,500 for better accuracy in analogies...or boosting our troops to 2,200,000 for a week....either or, I'm flexible.

Don't you get it?

Canadian soldiers dying are worth more sorrow than Canadians dying on the roads. Cmon now.

[M.Dancer]

MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS IN FIVE DAYS on Canadian highways than how many soldiers have died in four years in Afghanistan

While I for one would love to see a debate on traffic safety....considering there are perhaps 100,000 times more cars on the road in the last 5 days than CNDs in afghanistan....perhaps we should limit the numbers of cars on the road for the next 5 days to 2,500 for better accuracy in analogies...or boosting our troops to 2,200,000 for a week....either or, I'm flexible.

Don't you get it?

Canadian soldiers dying are worth more sorrow than Canadians dying on the roads. Cmon now.

Ummmm.....a little while ago on another board known for their anti-semitic posters there was one poster who belittled the expressions of condolences for a Canadian soldier killed in a traffic mishap in Afghanistan....I didn't understand why he would do that, but...shite, I still don't.

[August1991]

I've said it before I'll say it again. We need to debate.....We need to discuss things like.......

Do we need 1 or 2 more battalions to do the job

What about Air Support? SHould we send one or two Squadrons?

What about target practice...are you running out of NDPers?

We should be debating the best way to win the war.

Exactly.

If there is to be a debate, then let's debate what we could do more or better. Anybody with a passing understanding of what's involved does not question the existence of this mission.

I'm surprised at the niggling defeatism. This is not an impossible task. It might take time but that's fine.

The message to our soldiers should be this: you know Canada. Some Canadians carp, moan and groan. Ignore them.

[Hicksey]

I've said it before I'll say it again. We need to debate.....We need to discuss things like.......

Do we need 1 or 2 more battalions to do the job

What about Air Support? SHould we send one or two Squadrons?

What about target practice...are you running out of NDPers?

We should be debating the best way to win the war.

Exactly.

If there is to be a debate, then let's debate what we could do more or better. Anybody with a passing understanding of what's involved does not question the existence of this mission.

I'm surprised at the niggling defeatism. This is not an impossible task. It might take time but that's fine.

The message to our soldiers should be this: you know Canada. Some Canadians carp, moan and groan. Ignore them.

The problem is that the public has been reprogrammed to view soldiers as people from their local social services office armed, dressed up in fatigues and sent to counsel people around the world and sign a welfare check for every one.

[MSH]

While I for one would love to see a debate on traffic safety....considering there are perhaps 100,000 times more cars on the road in the last 5 days than CNDs in afghanistan....perhaps we should limit the numbers of cars on the road for the next 5 days to 2,500 for better accuracy in analogies...or boosting our troops to 2,200,000 for a week....either or, I'm flexible.

If you wish to make a convincing argument then you should not use hyperbole. There are not "100,000 times more cars on the road" in five days. You are overstating by about 1500 percent. Also, I made the comparison for casulties over FOUR YEARS in afghanistan vs FIVE DAYS on Canadian roads to at least partially compensate for the fact that there are far more drivers in Canada than soldiers in Afghanistan, however the point was the absolute magnitude of fatalities.

Perhaps I should use a more convincing statistic that is more comparable: the annual fatality rate of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan thus far has been about 0.4 percent, and even with the more intense fighting in the past year it is still around 1 percent or maybe a bit less. Considering the nature of the task at hand this is fairly impressive. We suffered casulties of a drastically higher rate in past military involvements.

Also consider that the data is skewed becasue in recent months we have been engaged in unusually intense combat. At the time parliament voted to extend our mission the opposition was using the same argument it is today--that we are suffering too great a loss of troops in a mission that was too combative--and at that time the annual fatality rate for our soldiers was less than 0.2 percent--almost identical to the fatality rate of commercial fishermen. Yes, that's right, when engaged in their typical roles, a COMMERCIAL FISHERMAN is at about an equal risk of dying as a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan.

And an even more direct comparison: 516 Canadians died in the Korean conflict in three years. Even considering that 10 times more Canadians fought in Korea than are in Afghanistan today that is STILL about 60 percent higher fatality rate than today. There are many parallels--what happened in Korea had no direct effect on our daily lives, it was a mission spearheaded by the UN to "make peace" instead of enforce it and we were trying to contain and ultimately eliminate an evil, oppresive and threatening force (the northern Communist regime that is still a threat today).

The fact that we can only make 10 percent of the commitment to such a mission today as we did then, even with more than double the population, I think is shameful. And just like Korea, there is a good chance we will not be able to completely destroy the Taliban, however we can do a great deal to improve life in the long-suffering region by containing them. Can you imagine what the world would be like if we took a non-commital attitude to the Communists in Korea? Millions of Koreans in the south would've led opressed and impovrished lives. Kim Jong Il would be even more scary than he is now. Would the Communists have stopped at the whole peninsula? What would've stoped them from "enacting revenge" on Japan, still-vulnerable and re-building after WW2? Japan certainly wouldn't be the thriving nation it is today under the opressive Communist regime of Korea.

Those are the stakes now. It doesn't matter if you can never eliminate the taliban, and it doesn't matter if the commitment will take decades..we simple HAVE to contend with them--it is our international responsibility. We cannot abandon Afghanistan and let the Taliban spin it as a "victory"--they'd re-establish themselves in Afghanistan and their influence would grow in places like Iraq and Pakistan. Also, other Islamist cults are already asserting themselves in Iran, Syria and Lebanon and would only be emboldened by a Taliban "victory" over "western/Zionist infidels". Do you really want to let Islamist cults establish a large, opressive pan-Islamist state bent on the destruction of Judeo-Christian culture and western democracies? Are we doing the millions of innocent, faithful Islamic people inthe region a favour by letting these cults exert control over them and pervert true and good Islamic values?

Just more of my thoughts...

[Leafless]

MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS IN FIVE DAYS on Canadian highways than how many soldiers have died in four years in Afghanistan

While I for one would love to see a debate on traffic safety....considering there are perhaps 100,000 times more cars on the road in the last 5 days than CNDs in afghanistan....perhaps we should limit the numbers of cars on the road for the next 5 days to 2,500 for better accuracy in analogies...or boosting our troops to 2,200,000 for a week....either or, I'm flexible.

Don't you get it?

Canadian soldiers dying are worth more sorrow than Canadians dying on the roads. Cmon now.

This is truly a matter of opinion.

The Afghanistan issue is a very complex issue and is not not cut and dry.

Our soldiers in Afghanistan are all volunteers and whether they think this war is worth the fight then it is totally their personal business or decision independent of what any Canadian might think or support.

It is for this reason that Canadian support cannot be guaranteed and should not be expected.

[Charles Anthony]

I think people are tired of the empty sloganeering that passes for information on this matter.

Me too.

I am completely fed up of being told to shut up and support our troups. Somehow, I find it vey difficult to accept "We are saving the world! We are bringing world peace! We are fighting insurgents!" and other such vacuous "mission" statements.

I refuse to believe that nations go to war for any reason greater than the almighty dollar.

Our soldiers in Afghanistan are all volunteers and whether they think this war is worth the fight then it is totally their personal business or decision independent of what any Canadian might think or support.

It is for this reason that Canadian support cannot be guaranteed and should not be expected.

I agree.

Unfortunately, every Canadian is required to pay for it through their taxes and without choice.

I think it would be more appropriate to pass a collection basket around and let the war-mongers fund this "mission" themselves.

[B. Max]

I think people are tired of the empty sloganeering that passes for information on this matter.

Me too.

I am completely fed up of being told to shut up and support our troups. Somehow, I find it vey difficult to accept "We are saving the world! We are bringing world peace! We are fighting insurgents!" and other such vacuous "mission" statements.

I refuse to believe that nations go to war for any reason greater than the almighty dollar.

Our soldiers in Afghanistan are all volunteers and whether they think this war is worth the fight then it is totally their personal business or decision independent of what any Canadian might think or support.

It is for this reason that Canadian support cannot be guaranteed and should not be expected.

I agree.

Unfortunately, every Canadian is required to pay for it through their taxes and without choice.

I think it would be more appropriate to pass a collection basket around and let the war-mongers fund this "mission" themselves.

No problem. As long as you trot out the collection boxes for the myriad of socialist boondoogles.

[Black Dog]

Do you really want to let Islamist cults establish a large, opressive pan-Islamist state bent on the destruction of Judeo-Christian culture and western democracies?

What does that have to do with the Taliban? The Taliban were and are small-time peasants, illiterate and ignorant thugs. If they had aspirations beyond ruling over their own patch of dirt and making life miserable for the people there, they didn't show it. Osama bin Laden was allowed to set up in Afghanistan because he gave them money and muscle. If the Taliban were to take over again, that won't magically return Al Qaeda to its former strength.

If we succeed, however we plan to measure that, whoever eventually ends up running Afghanistan will be different from the Taliban by a matter of degrees. They'll be corrupt. They'll be backward. And they'll be brutal. And we won't care because they'll be ours.

[B. Max]

Do you really want to let Islamist cults establish a large, opressive pan-Islamist state bent on the destruction of Judeo-Christian culture and western democracies?

What does that have to do with the Taliban? The Taliban were and are small-time peasants, illiterate and ignorant thugs. If they had aspirations beyond ruling over their own patch of dirt and making life miserable for the people there, they didn't show it. Osama bin Laden was allowed to set up in Afghanistan because he gave them money and muscle. If the Taliban were to take over again, that won't magically return Al Qaeda to its former strength.

If we succeed, however we plan to measure that, whoever eventually ends up running Afghanistan will be different from the Taliban by a matter of degrees. They'll be corrupt. They'll be backward. And they'll be brutal. And we won't care because they'll be ours.

Afghanistan is but one battle in the over all war on world wide Islamic conquest.

[Black Dog]

Afghanistan is but one battle in the over all war on world wide Islamic conquest.

Pfffft. Like I said, the Taliban were never bent on conquest. And there's no radical Islamic entity that can even get its shit together to dump one of the west's pet tyrranies in the Mid East, let alone conquer anyone else. Hell, Hizbullah, one of the more potent Islamic/Arab fighting forces going, can hang onto its little patch of earth, but they can't dislodge anyone else from theirs. So this war you speak of reminds me of some of the old fashioned "wars" of colonial times. But while today's natives have upgraded from spears to RPGs, they have about as much chance of overunning us as the Zulus did of marching on Buckingham Palace in 1879.

[B. Max]

Afghanistan is but one battle in the over all war on world wide Islamic conquest.

Pfffft. Like I said, the Taliban were never bent on conquest. And there's no radical Islamic entity that can even get its shit together to dump one of the west's pet tyrranies in the Mid East, let alone conquer anyone else. Hell, Hizbullah, one of the more potent Islamic/Arab fighting forces going, can hang onto its little patch of earth, but they can't dislodge anyone else from theirs. So this war you speak of reminds me of some of the old fashioned "wars" of colonial times. But while today's natives have upgraded from spears to RPGs, they have about as much chance of overunning us as the Zulus did of marching on Buckingham Palace in 1879.

Yes, exactly what they said about Hitler when he wrote his book while sitting in a jail cell.